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Is D.Jeter the greatest Yankee of all time?

You two should just start PMing each other. You'd hate to be the crazy guys that keep the silly conversation going in public.
Purity in pin stripes
Originally posted by FamousAnus:
You two should just start PMing each other. You'd hate to be the crazy guys that keep the silly conversation going in public.

I already said I was done with him.
not even close
Sorry it takes me so long to look up these stats but I have other things to do as well. I am not posting these stats thinking that i will convince you (Andes). Here is Jeter's stats in Hits and runs.
Hits and where he ranked
1997 AL 190 (3rd)
1998 AL 203 (3rd)
1999 AL 219 (1st)
2000 AL 201 (4th)
2001 AL 191 (7th)
2002 AL 191 (7th)
2004 AL 188 (7th)
2005 AL 202 (3rd)
2006 AL 214 (3rd)
2007 AL 206 (3rd)
2009 AL 212 (2nd)
Active 3,004 (1st)
Career 3,004 (27th)

Runs Scored and where he ranked
1997 AL 116 (4th)
1998 AL 127 (1st)
1999 AL 134 (2nd)
2000 AL 119 (6th)
2001 AL 110 (5th)
2002 AL 124 (3rd)
2004 AL 111 (6th)
2005 AL 122 (2nd)
2006 AL 118 (2nd)
2009 AL 107 (4th)
2010 AL 111 (2nd)
Active 1,727 (2nd)
Career 1,727 (24th)

It is missing some of the years but his hits and runs were pretty good in the missing years. My arguement again is this. Jeter bats leadoff. His job is to get on base and score runs. If they put Jeter in the 3 slot he would have alot more RBI's because he averaged in the top 5 in hits for most of his career. If the Yankee's General Manager had a checklist for Jeter to accomplish every year he would pass with flying colors.
Can Jeter get on base...Yes...avg. in the top 5
Can Jeter score runs...Yes...avg. in the top 5
Can Jeter be a leader in the locker room...Yes...He is Captain of the NY Yankees
Can Jeter play shortstop...Yes...He has 5 gold gloves
Can Jeter help us win games...Yes...14 ALDS, 9 ALCS, 7 World Series and 5 time World Series Champions!
In 1978 the Yankees won the World Series. In the 16 years that followed the Yankees went to the playoffs twice in 80 and 81. For the next 13 years they missed the playoffs. Jeter arrives in 95 and they go to the playoffs(He barely played). The nexy year they win the WS. From there they go to the playoffs every year of his career except in 08. Baseball is a team sport but it seemed to turn around for the Yankees when #2 showed up. Or...He is one lucky over-rated guy that benefited from playing for the Yankees.
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

um, Indians had Nap Lajoie and Tris Speaker...and Bob Feller is one of the greatest pitchers ever to play. plus theres Addie Joss and Bob Lemon. Jeter wouldnt be a top 5 HOF on the Indians...

Roberto Alomar is in the hall as a Blue Jay

Joe Morgan for the Astros (he wears a Reds cap, but player more years in HOU)

Gwynn is better for SD

most of the teams listed are newer franchises, so saying Jeter would be the best Marlin ever is a pointless argument.

I'll give you Cleveland because of Feller and Speaker. Joe Morgan in Houston is a joke and you know that. He wasnt close to HOF when he played there. Alomar, Jeter, and Gwynn are all close.

i was looking at total career stats mainly. obviously Morgans Astros ONLY stats arent that great. i was under the impression we were talking about total careers, with the team they played with the longest representing them.

Cleveland was obvious. Lajoie and Speaker are WAY ahead of Jeter. Nap Lajoie was so good, the Indians changed their team name to the "Cleveland Naps" for 12 years.

I know youre looking past the stats with Jeter, and you really like the way he plays the game and the image he presents, but you have to admit he does get overhyped because of the New York media. women find him attractive, he plays a scarce position for hitting production, he came up with the most popular and covered team in baseball, a team with the most history-laden past, and was very good both offensively and defensively. he had ALOT of things going for him.

throw in some clutch postseason moments, and hes a baseball hero to alot of New York fans. I just dont believe hes as good or as important as hes projected to be overall.

I keep going back to Paul Molitor. they hit around the same for avg, theyre going to end up with around the same amount of hits, similar OB% range, almost identical HR numbers, almost the same RBIs, similar walks, Molitor has a ton more doubles, Molitor finished 2nd for ROY, Jeter won ROY, Molitor finished top 5 in MVP voting twice, Jeter 3 times, neither ever won, both 4 time silver sluggers, etc, etc.

theyre SO similar statistically, yet one of them played for 3 small market teams (MIL, TOR, MIN) and the other played his entire career for the biggest market team in the world. one of them got to play in the playoffs 3 times, the other got to play 14 times. both did well in their chances in the postseason.

Jeter had a great glove, but Molitor wasnt terrible at 3B. same career fielding % as George Brett.

but somehow Derek Jeter is this Yankee legend, and Paul Molitor is a pedestrian HOF entree that people kind of give a golf clap for. Jeter gets such a HUGE public advantage from being a New York Yankee, and stepping up in the playoffs FOR the Yankees. hes got an image you can only gain in the New York spotlight.

and i cant remember who brought it up, but in 600 career postseason AB's, basically a full season of baseball, Jeter had a nice seasons worth of stats, but not jaw dropping. reminds me a bit of Randy Winn's time here with the Giants...

Randy Winn 2005 season Mariners/Giants:

617 AB's, 189 hits, .306 avg, 20 HR, 63 RBI's, 47 2B, 85 R, 19 SB, .360 OB% 91 k

Jeter's postseason stats:

599 AB's, 185 hits, .309 avg, 20 HR, 57 RBI's, 30 2B, 101 R, 17 SB, .377 OB%, 117 k

what those stats leave out is several big time, pressure hits, but his postseason resume as a whole isnt as impressive as the common fan is instructed to think.
[ Edited by Niners99 on Jul 12, 2011 at 2:16 AM ]
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by skeetskeet:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by skeetskeet:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by skeetskeet:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by skeetskeet:
atleast Michael Young is a way better comp then Juan Gonzalez.

Juan Gonzalez haha

Uhhhhh.......

first off, if ur gonna use stats, atleast use baseball reference.

Do you still think Jeter>Gonzalez?

I could make an argument that Luis Gonzalez is better than Juan Gonzalez.

LOL. No you can't. I can't believe how little love all you guys are giving him. If he's not the best player of the entire decade of the 90's, he's certainly no worse than 2nd or 3rd. He won 2 MVP's. And he did it all for the one squad. And you guys are acting like I just said Jim Druckenmiller>Joe Montana. I just don't get it.


Luis - .283 Avg 354 HRs 596 2Bs 1439 RBIs 1155 BBs 1218 Ks .367 OBP .479 SLG .845 OPS

Juan -.295 Avg 434 HRs 388 2Bs 1404 RBIs 457 BBs 1273 Ks .343 OBP .561 SLG .904 OPS

Juan hit higher average, less RBIs, WAY less walks, on-base less often, way less doubles...


i win.

Jesus. Luis had over 2600 more at bats. How much weight do you think having 35 more career RBI's holds? Lol. And slugging and OPS are both waaaaaay better stats than OBP, and Juan holds quite healthy advantages in those (way bigger discrepancies than Luis' small advantage on OBP, which, like I said, is way less important anyways)- which take doubles into account. About the only thing Luis was better at was walks. Juan won 2 MVP's to Luis' 0. Also, do you deny that Juan was no worse than the 3rd best player of the entire decade of the 90's, or are you gonna disagree with that too???

Ken Griffey Jr,
Barry Bonds
Frank Thomas.

Next subject.

I think Juan Gonzalez is likely better than Frank Thomas. But even if he's not, how many others can you name? The bottom line is he was ONE of the best players of the 90's (I think he may have had more extra base hits than anyone else in that span). It's not like you can say the same about a stretch that long for Jeter. Can we not agree on that?

Backtracking now? Thomas had top 7 MVP's 7 times in the 90s. Gonzalez 3 times. You are wrong again. Next subject.

YOU'RE talking about backtracking? The man who went out of his way to say Jeter would have been the best player and NOT just hitter on several teams, then listing teams saying he would be the best position player for them? Ok smart guy, so where do you rank Gonzalez amongst the best players of the 90's?

Also, btw, I love how NOW you're willing to call Thomas a top-3 players of the 90's but still claimed Jeter would be the best player in White Sox history. Contradiction, much?

At least you recognize that I am smart. Sorry but I cannot reciprocate.

Lol, way to actually respond to the points at hand. Why don't you answer the question, where do you rank Gonzalez amonst the best players of the 90's? It doesn't matter if it's 1st, it doesn't matter if it's 2nd, it doesn't matter if it's 4th. All that matters is that whatever it is, you can't say something similar about Jeter for a similar stretch.

I would put Jeter ahead of Gonzalez for an ENTIRE career given everything that it takes to be a ballplayer and not just the ability to hit the ball out of the park. All you care about is power stats. You dont seem to care that he was a marginal outfielder at best who DH'd about 1 out of every 4 games. OR.. that he was slow and only stole 26 bases in 17 seasons while getting caught 19 times. OR.. that he was near the top in hitting into DPs several times. OR.. that he was washed up by the time he was 33. OR.. that he played a corner OF position where it is MUCH easier to find a power hitter than at SS.

For a power hitter with no other redeeming features it is surprising that Juan Gonzalez NEVER - REPEAT NEVER finished in the top 3 in OPS in any season. So. in summary... NO speed, Bad defense, No longevity, No titles, NEVER top 3 in OPS. Oh wait.. it gets better. Jeter top 6 in WAR 6 times in his career. Juan Gonzalez.. 0 ( ZERO, NADA, NIL, ZIP, NEVER) times. Well.. he did finish 9th once!The defense rests!

And Jeter's last good year was when he was at the WAAAY older age of..........drumroll...........34. AGAIN, longevity only carries so much weight. Being good for a million years is not as impressive as being dominant for a shorter period of time. That's why no one thinks Ricky Proehl was a better receiver than Sterling Sharpe. The key way to truly gauge how great someone is at something, you look at how they did at their best and so you gotta put a little more emphasis on the best FEW years of each. And Jeter at his best was nowhere near Juan Gon at his. I also care about far more than power stats. I bet I hold Stan Musial in higher esteem than you do, and he never even hit 40 dingers in a season. Jose Reyes is slugging .529 right now with an OPS of .927 and he has just 3 homers. Shane Victorino is another example. When I look at slugging, it's not just because great POWER players have great sugging %'s...it's because great players period do. Jeter was definitely a better fielder, it's not like there's plays that happen all the time that Jeter would make that the average big league shortstop couldn't. The GREAT, OVERWHELMING majority of balls hit are gonna be a basehit regardless of who's fielding or an out regardless of who's fielding. And though Jeter is obviously also a better basestealer, it's not like he's Rickey Henderson- he averages under 20 per season. As for the titles, you never respond to what I say about that, but this is copy and pasted from before: it's irrelevant when comparing players because teams win championships. So if you want to compare the YANKEES with the BLUE JAYS, then yes, the Yankees>Blue Jays. That doesn't make Jeter>Delgado. Is Horry>Jordan? You seem to ignore the INDIVIDUAL accolades that guys like Bagwell and Thomas and Gonzalez have acquired such as MVP and just seem to be focusing on team accomplishments. It's not like Delgado would have no rings if he were fortunate enough to play with the Yankees during those years, nor would Jeter have any rings if he played for the Blue Jays.

Jeter.. 6 times top 6 in WAR
Gonzalez ZERO

And.. you hold Musial in higher regard than I do? Really? THats f**king hilarious given that I have never made a comment on Stan Musial to you .

Face it.. you only know how to look at stats and dont know much about baseball. It is abundantly clear. I'm done wasting my time on anyone this clueless on the game. Anyone who ACTUALLY thinks Carlos Delgado was a better player than Derek Jeter has zero idea of what makes a great baseball player. However, you do know that Ricky Proehl wasnt as good as Sterling Sharpe. Congratulations on that.

Gonzalez...2 times MVP
Jeter...ZERO

My Musial comment was to prove that I don't only value homers or whatever. And face it- this is baseball. Stats DO tell virtually the whole story. You just seem to be looking at titles and fluff that has nothing to do with individual prowess. Like I said, do you think Delgado would be ringless if he played all those years for the Yankees? Do you think Jeter WOULDN'T be ringless if he played all those years in Toronto? Again, Robert Horry is not better than Michael Jordan because of titles. You wanna say NYY>TOR, fine. That does NOT mean Jete was better than Delgado. And he DEFINITELY wasn't better than Gonzalez.

I think you need to steer clear of this. A number of MVPs does not hold weight. That is what you are basing it on.

Based on the notion that Robert Horry is not better than MJ based on titles....then Gonzo is not better than Jeter based off of MVPs.
Niners99 I didn't want to copy that whole thing so I just directed this at you. I think Moliter is great. Many people don't care about that type of player. When I was younger my favorite guy was Wade "Cranberry" Boggs. Boggs, Gwynn, Moliter, Ichiro and Jeter are all the same in my eyes. Some hit more doubles, some more HR's, Batting titles or Gold gloves but they all had longevity. Just solid overall players. Maybe they don't win the MVP but they constantly avg in the top 5 - 10 in major categories. Some guys have a great stint in their career where thet dominate for a short time and lead the league in HR's and RBI's, but then they fade out and get forgotten about. But for 15+ years you have the Boggs type of players consistently leading the way in getting on base. Jeter benefited from being in New York by playing with great players. Although I pointed out before that the Yankees weren't very good before he got there. If it was Gwynn or Moliter playing in NY their whole career instead of Jeter would the outcome and World Series championships be the same? It's easy to say yes but that's difficult to judge. Surely they all would have won but it's hard to say if Moliter would be the same type of leader. In the end, I still take Jeter because I know the outcome of what you get with him. I know i'm biased as a Yankee Fan but I do also appreciate the "Moliter" type players.
Originally posted by FamousAnus:
Paragraphs are for suckers.

And suckers are for a pair a' Graffs!

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Originally posted by TheSixthRing:
Originally posted by FamousAnus:
Paragraphs are for suckers.

And suckers are for a pair a' Graffs!


Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

um, Indians had Nap Lajoie and Tris Speaker...and Bob Feller is one of the greatest pitchers ever to play. plus theres Addie Joss and Bob Lemon. Jeter wouldnt be a top 5 HOF on the Indians...

Roberto Alomar is in the hall as a Blue Jay

Joe Morgan for the Astros (he wears a Reds cap, but player more years in HOU)

Gwynn is better for SD

most of the teams listed are newer franchises, so saying Jeter would be the best Marlin ever is a pointless argument.

I'll give you Cleveland because of Feller and Speaker. Joe Morgan in Houston is a joke and you know that. He wasnt close to HOF when he played there. Alomar, Jeter, and Gwynn are all close.

i was looking at total career stats mainly. obviously Morgans Astros ONLY stats arent that great. i was under the impression we were talking about total careers, with the team they played with the longest representing them.

Cleveland was obvious. Lajoie and Speaker are WAY ahead of Jeter. Nap Lajoie was so good, the Indians changed their team name to the "Cleveland Naps" for 12 years.

I know youre looking past the stats with Jeter, and you really like the way he plays the game and the image he presents, but you have to admit he does get overhyped because of the New York media. women find him attractive, he plays a scarce position for hitting production, he came up with the most popular and covered team in baseball, a team with the most history-laden past, and was very good both offensively and defensively. he had ALOT of things going for him.

throw in some clutch postseason moments, and hes a baseball hero to alot of New York fans. I just dont believe hes as good or as important as hes projected to be overall.

I keep going back to Paul Molitor. they hit around the same for avg, theyre going to end up with around the same amount of hits, similar OB% range, almost identical HR numbers, almost the same RBIs, similar walks, Molitor has a ton more doubles, Molitor finished 2nd for ROY, Jeter won ROY, Molitor finished top 5 in MVP voting twice, Jeter 3 times, neither ever won, both 4 time silver sluggers, etc, etc.

theyre SO similar statistically, yet one of them played for 3 small market teams (MIL, TOR, MIN) and the other played his entire career for the biggest market team in the world. one of them got to play in the playoffs 3 times, the other got to play 14 times. both did well in their chances in the postseason.

Jeter had a great glove, but Molitor wasnt terrible at 3B. same career fielding % as George Brett.

but somehow Derek Jeter is this Yankee legend, and Paul Molitor is a pedestrian HOF entree that people kind of give a golf clap for. Jeter gets such a HUGE public advantage from being a New York Yankee, and stepping up in the playoffs FOR the Yankees. hes got an image you can only gain in the New York spotlight.

and i cant remember who brought it up, but in 600 career postseason AB's, basically a full season of baseball, Jeter had a nice seasons worth of stats, but not jaw dropping. reminds me a bit of Randy Winn's time here with the Giants...

Randy Winn 2005 season Mariners/Giants:

617 AB's, 189 hits, .306 avg, 20 HR, 63 RBI's, 47 2B, 85 R, 19 SB, .360 OB% 91 k

Jeter's postseason stats:

599 AB's, 185 hits, .309 avg, 20 HR, 57 RBI's, 30 2B, 101 R, 17 SB, .377 OB%, 117 k

what those stats leave out is several big time, pressure hits, but his postseason resume as a whole isnt as impressive as the common fan is instructed to think.

Now you are comparing stats from Randy Winn to Derek Jeter? Winn's stats with losing teams with NO pressure versus Jeter on the biggest stage? I'm sure you can find even more obscure players that had a solid year for a last place team that has stats even better. What does that prove anyway?

Comparing one year of a player to a HOF player's post season stats can be so misleading. Compare these:

Reggie Jackson Post Season:
77 games
OPS .885
HR 18
rbi 48

Adam Lind 2009
151 games
OPS .932
HR 35
rbi 114

Clearly Lind's numbes are better yet no one in their right mind would EVER compare Reggie to Adam Lind. Doing great things on the biggest stage in the biggest city is MUCH more difficult.

As for Molitor.. I think he was a fine hitter who deserves being in the HOF. However, in no way do I think he is the equal of Jeter. Playing in Toronto, Milwaukee, and Minnesota is much easier than NY. There are so many players that failed big time when they got to the Big Apple. He also played an easier position and was a DH for over 40% of his games played.

Jeter may be overhyped. That is a FAR different thing from being overrated.
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Niners99:
Originally posted by Ninerjohn:
Originally posted by itlynstalyn:
Originally posted by LundyLove:
if he was on the reds he would be Barry larkin

This. He'll always be a top tier shortstop (probably in the top 5-10 of all-time) in my mind and a shoe-in hall-of-famer, but best Yankee in history? Very doubtful. He had the benefit of being on great teams with $100+ million payrolls most of his entire career, but he still contributed and came through in a ridiculously tough market. I don't like Jeter mainly because I hate the Yankees, but I respect his ability as a player.

I agree with this.

Best SS in Yankee history - without question
Top 5 SS of all time - I would say YES
First Ballot HOF - Of course
Overrated - Only to the those who dont get it.
Top Yankee Ever... only if we wipe out Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Joe Dimaggio, and
Mickey Mantle from the records.

Alex Rodriguez, Honus Wagner, Cal Ripken Jr., and Ernie Banks are the only real legendary SS, so being 5th, he beats our Barry Larkin and Ozzie Smith?

the fact that he was a top 5 SS is impressive, but that 5th spot was kind of open for the taking.

i agree with most of the rest. You keep harping on how he isnt overrated. he CAN be overrated, depending on where people rate him. if people say hes a solid HOF SS, that isnt overrated. when people say hes right up there with Mantle and DiMaggio, that IS overrated.

and i would say Yogi Berra was a better player also among Yankees. Reggie Jackson easily, but that depends on if you view his stint there as long enough. he did win them a couple WS. among just Yankee position players, hes top 8, but thats as high as im willing to go. theres still a couple guys who didnt play there as long, but whos whole career still match up like Wade Boggs and Dave Winfield.

among everyone for all time Yankees?

Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, DiMaggio, Berra, Jackson, Ford, Jeter is where id probably rank him.

I'm curious as to why Cal Ripken is considered "legendary", but Jeter isn't.

I think that Wagner and Rodriguez (who along with Banks will probably finish his career playing more games at a different position) are a cut above all other SS's, but after you probably have Banks as the clear #3 guy, and Ripken, Jeter, Arky Vaughn, Smith, & Larkin all jumbled together after that. There's no way Ripken's a cut above those other guys.

Cal was a good defender, has 3000 hits and 400+ HR's and all while playing his entire career on s**tty Orioles teams. 19 All Star games, 2 league MVP's, 8 silver sluggers, 2 gold gloves and has the iron man record, which could probably be argued as one of the hardest records to break at the moment. Dude was definitely a legend in my eyes.

I'm not necessarily arguing with his resume, I'm just saying that if you consider him to be a legend, I think you have to consider a couple of others the same way, with Jeter being one of them. I don't think he belongs in the same category as A-Rod & Wagner, and I don't think he's a cut above the others I mentioned either. His career OPS+ is 112, which is the lowest amongst the guy's we're discussing, aside from Ozzie Smith, obviously.

He broke a streak that required unparalleled endurance, but I think that's overly weighted when discussing what kind of player he was.

OPS only measures hitters and if anyone ever said that Jeter was among the top 10 greatest hitters of all time ... well then they WOULD be overrating him. Jeter has been a great all round player that could field, hit, run, and be a leader on his team. Plus, he played in the highest pressure organization in all of professional sports. He isnt the greatest Yankee ever obviously but he would be the greatest player(not just hitter) for several organizations in my opinion. I would put him on the same level as Ripken.

Name one, other than the Rays who have barely been around.


Angels ( close with Carew)
Rangers
Indians ( position player anyway - Feller might be #1)
White Sox
Rays
Blue Jays ( please tell me Carlos Delgado again. That cracks me up)
Diamondbacks ( without question top position player and RJ only played 6 yrs)
Rockies ( Oh ya.. LArry Walker is your choice - the I will never make the HOF guy)
Padres (close with Gywnn)
Astros
Mets ( would be greatest postion player)
Marlins ( not even close)

um, Indians had Nap Lajoie and Tris Speaker...and Bob Feller is one of the greatest pitchers ever to play. plus theres Addie Joss and Bob Lemon. Jeter wouldnt be a top 5 HOF on the Indians...

Roberto Alomar is in the hall as a Blue Jay

Joe Morgan for the Astros (he wears a Reds cap, but player more years in HOU)

Gwynn is better for SD

most of the teams listed are newer franchises, so saying Jeter would be the best Marlin ever is a pointless argument.

I'll give you Cleveland because of Feller and Speaker. Joe Morgan in Houston is a joke and you know that. He wasnt close to HOF when he played there. Alomar, Jeter, and Gwynn are all close.

i was looking at total career stats mainly. obviously Morgans Astros ONLY stats arent that great. i was under the impression we were talking about total careers, with the team they played with the longest representing them.

Cleveland was obvious. Lajoie and Speaker are WAY ahead of Jeter. Nap Lajoie was so good, the Indians changed their team name to the "Cleveland Naps" for 12 years.

I know youre looking past the stats with Jeter, and you really like the way he plays the game and the image he presents, but you have to admit he does get overhyped because of the New York media. women find him attractive, he plays a scarce position for hitting production, he came up with the most popular and covered team in baseball, a team with the most history-laden past, and was very good both offensively and defensively. he had ALOT of things going for him.

throw in some clutch postseason moments, and hes a baseball hero to alot of New York fans. I just dont believe hes as good or as important as hes projected to be overall.

I keep going back to Paul Molitor. they hit around the same for avg, theyre going to end up with around the same amount of hits, similar OB% range, almost identical HR numbers, almost the same RBIs, similar walks, Molitor has a ton more doubles, Molitor finished 2nd for ROY, Jeter won ROY, Molitor finished top 5 in MVP voting twice, Jeter 3 times, neither ever won, both 4 time silver sluggers, etc, etc.

theyre SO similar statistically, yet one of them played for 3 small market teams (MIL, TOR, MIN) and the other played his entire career for the biggest market team in the world. one of them got to play in the playoffs 3 times, the other got to play 14 times. both did well in their chances in the postseason.

Jeter had a great glove, but Molitor wasnt terrible at 3B. same career fielding % as George Brett.

but somehow Derek Jeter is this Yankee legend, and Paul Molitor is a pedestrian HOF entree that people kind of give a golf clap for. Jeter gets such a HUGE public advantage from being a New York Yankee, and stepping up in the playoffs FOR the Yankees. hes got an image you can only gain in the New York spotlight.

and i cant remember who brought it up, but in 600 career postseason AB's, basically a full season of baseball, Jeter had a nice seasons worth of stats, but not jaw dropping. reminds me a bit of Randy Winn's time here with the Giants...

Randy Winn 2005 season Mariners/Giants:

617 AB's, 189 hits, .306 avg, 20 HR, 63 RBI's, 47 2B, 85 R, 19 SB, .360 OB% 91 k

Jeter's postseason stats:

599 AB's, 185 hits, .309 avg, 20 HR, 57 RBI's, 30 2B, 101 R, 17 SB, .377 OB%, 117 k

what those stats leave out is several big time, pressure hits, but his postseason resume as a whole isnt as impressive as the common fan is instructed to think.

Now you are comparing stats from Randy Winn to Derek Jeter? Winn's stats with losing teams with NO pressure versus Jeter on the biggest stage? I'm sure you can find even more obscure players that had a solid year for a last place team that has stats even better. What does that prove anyway?

Comparing one year of a player to a HOF player's post season stats can be so misleading. Compare these:

Reggie Jackson Post Season:
77 games
OPS .885
HR 18
rbi 48

Adam Lind 2009
151 games
OPS .932
HR 35
rbi 114

Clearly Lind's numbes are better yet no one in their right mind would EVER compare Reggie to Adam Lind. Doing great things on the biggest stage in the biggest city is MUCH more difficult.

As for Molitor.. I think he was a fine hitter who deserves being in the HOF. However, in no way do I think he is the equal of Jeter. Playing in Toronto, Milwaukee, and Minnesota is much easier than NY. There are so many players that failed big time when they got to the Big Apple. He also played an easier position and was a DH for over 40% of his games played.

Jeter may be overhyped. That is a FAR different thing from being overrated.

first of all, right under where i listed Jeters postseason stats and Winn's 2005 stats, i stated "what those stats leave out is several big time, pressure hits in the playoffs". i understand the difference between New York pressure and what Winn did.

I was pointing out that through a seasons worth of AB's in the playoffs, his totals were very good, but not legendary. and i think youre overselling the whole "New York pressure" thing. theres more media on you, yes, but its not like he was the only guy on the Yankees. they all shared the burden. he came up with the team, and all those famous 90's Yankees, so its really nothing like the pressure that a big name f/a who get paid mega bucks to play in NY has to deal with.

when A-Rod, Teixeira, CC, Pavano, Burnett, etc get huge deals to be a Yankee, theyre expected to be great in the playoffs, or everyone is going to be extremely upset. thats pressure. Jeter was a fan favorite from the start. he got paid 130,000 the first year they won, 750,000 the 2nd time they won, and 5 mil the 3rd time they won. he was already a 3 time champion and hero before he was making any kind of pressure money.

Im not trying to take away all hes done, but the stats say Paul Molitor and Derek Jeter had similar careers. Jeter has a better glove. just because Jeter came up with the Yankees doesnt make me want to give him all this extra credit. almost every HOF player wouldve stepped up their game in the playoffs, especially if they got to play there every single season of their career. its not like Jeter is the only player of his caliber who couldve gotten big hits in October for the Yankees.

I give Jeter credit for his career offensive stats, his time of being a great fielding SS, and his postseason heroics. but i stop there. his stats were what they were, his glove was what it was, and he came up big for his team in the playoffs. im not giving him extra credit because he got to play in the playoffs in 14 years. thats purely a Yankee privilege. its insulting to other HOF players to call what he did in his career "better" just because he had the opportunities.

If Ernie Banks was a Yankee, and got 10+ playoff seasons, he wouldve done well in them, won some titles, and his hype would be alot higher. its the Yankee advantage. players who play for the Yankees have more opportunities than players who dont historically. when the NY media is watching everything you do, the great players become legends, and the bad players get booed out of town.
I just have to laugh at this entire thread.
  • jrg
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