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Lebron vs. Jordan

^
Originally posted by crabman82:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by DonnieDarko:
MJ owes his success to this man

I wonder how many people even remember the great Bill Wennington? Probably you, me and a few other people.

i do, he was the best canadian player until nash came around

He had a good jump shot, from what I remember.
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Originally posted by LA9erFan:
I don't agree with Kareem on a lot of this, but thought this was interesting.

How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill's rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

Wilt is the greatest player to play the game in my opinion as well. The dude just dominated his competition like no one, and contribute in more areas than MJ did.
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Wilt is the greatest player to play the game in my opinion as well. The dude just dominated his competition like no one, and contribute in more areas than MJ did.

You can definitely make the argument. But the league that Wilt played in was so different from the one that MJ did that it's very, very difficult to compare. Heck, I think you can make a compelling case for the guy that wrote that letter too. He was unstoppable for about 12 years, and very good for another 5.

BTW...how many people can say that they played against both Wilt & Jordan?
[ Edited by LA9erFan on May 31, 2011 at 11:06 AM ]
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Wilt is the greatest player to play the game in my opinion as well. The dude just dominated his competition like no one, and contribute in more areas than MJ did.

You can definitely make the argument. But the league that Wilt played in was so different from the one that MJ did that it's very, very difficult to compare. Heck, I think you can make a compelling case for the guy that wrote that letter too. He was unstoppable for about 12 years, and very good for another 5.

BTW...how many people can say that they played against both Wilt & Jordan?

I did, in NBA Live 96. 80% of the players in that game had handlebar moustaches.
  • BobS
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Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
I don't agree with Kareem on a lot of this, but thought this was interesting.

How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill's rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

Wilt is the greatest player to play the game in my opinion as well. The dude just dominated his competition like no one, and contribute in more areas than MJ did.

I saw Wilt play, mind you he was half way into his career when I started following basketball and in his twilight years when he was on the Lakers and 50% of his games were on television. On top of everything else he was triple teamed a lot of times, even in his later years. The only other player I have seen in over 40 years of watching pro basketball get triple teamed more than a few times was Michael Jordan when Detroit did it to him in all the play-off games in the mid to late 80's. I think that is the standard of greatness when an opponent will put 3 guys on you to stop you. Even Shaq was only double teamed most of the time when they were trying to stop him. Has anyone seen Lebron get triple teamed?
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
I don't agree with Kareem on a lot of this, but thought this was interesting.

How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill's rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

Wilt is the greatest player to play the game in my opinion as well. The dude just dominated his competition like no one, and contribute in more areas than MJ did.

I saw Wilt play, mind you he was half way into his career when I started following basketball and in his twilight years when he was on the Lakers and 50% of his games were on television. On top of everything else he was triple teamed a lot of times, even in his later years. The only other player I have seen in over 40 years of watching pro basketball get triple teamed more than a few times was Michael Jordan when Detroit did it to him in all the play-off games in the mid to late 80's. I think that is the standard of greatness when an opponent will put 3 guys on you to stop you. Even Shaq was only double teamed most of the time when they were trying to stop him. Has anyone seen Lebron get triple teamed?

I have... no, wait. That was his mom.
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Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Wilt is the greatest player to play the game in my opinion as well. The dude just dominated his competition like no one, and contribute in more areas than MJ did.

You can definitely make the argument. But the league that Wilt played in was so different from the one that MJ did that it's very, very difficult to compare. Heck, I think you can make a compelling case for the guy that wrote that letter too. He was unstoppable for about 12 years, and very good for another 5.

True, because of the Championships, one can make an argument for Bill. But, as a player, Wilt was much better than Bill. Bill was a decent score, and great on the boards, but Wilt was just as good on the boards and averaged 30 a game for his career...almost twice as much as Bill (I'm too lazy to check stats, but I think it was something like that).

But, Kareem makes a great point. Jordan made the game popular, not only in US but also Worldwide...which is one of the biggest factors in him being referred to as the greatest.

You're right though, the game was so different it's too difficult to compare players from 60s to the players from 90s. One can compare Lebron/Kobe/Jordan, but it's not only difficult, almost impossible to compare them with Oscar, Jerry West, and other greats who played decades before them.
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Wilt is the greatest player to play the game in my opinion as well. The dude just dominated his competition like no one, and contribute in more areas than MJ did.

You can definitely make the argument. But the league that Wilt played in was so different from the one that MJ did that it's very, very difficult to compare. Heck, I think you can make a compelling case for the guy that wrote that letter too. He was unstoppable for about 12 years, and very good for another 5.

True, because of the Championships, one can make an argument for Bill. But, as a player, Wilt was much better than Bill. Bill was a decent score, and great on the boards, but Wilt was just as good on the boards and averaged 30 a game for his career...almost twice as much as Bill (I'm too lazy to check stats, but I think it was something like that).

But, Kareem makes a great point. Jordan made the game popular, not only in US but also Worldwide...which is one of the biggest factors in him being referred to as the greatest.

You're right though, the game was so different it's too difficult to compare players from 60s to the players from 90s. One can compare Lebron/Kobe/Jordan, but it's not only difficult, almost impossible to compare them with Oscar, Jerry West, and other greats who played decades before them.

How about comparing the years Kareem overlaped with Wilt in the NBA.

Wilts 14th, 15th, and 16th NBA season when he was 34, 35, and 36 years old.

Wilt: averaged 18.6 rebounds per game and 16.2 points per game but from only 10 shots per game which makes it 64%

Kareem in his 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years in the league while Wilt was playing

rounds per game: 16.2
ppg: 32.2 ppg at 56%


I think that alone shows how great a player Wilt was. In his last three years after what appeared to be an injury year of only 12 games, he still out rebounded another tall player. Wilt's shooting percentage was still far greater. In that injury year, he scored 27ppg. I as well as most of us have probably spoken with people who have seen Wilt play and all of them talk about how strong Wilt was. There were other tall players in the league and even Kareem's and Wilt's career overlapped, but Wilt still played great. Some of the guys I have talked to say Wilt was like...well...picture a 7'1" player with the strength of Shaq but with more agility and smooth play along with a smooth finish. We all know that Shaq's biggest hindrance was his lack of touch and agility. Wilt was that.
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
True, because of the Championships, one can make an argument for Bill. But, as a player, Wilt was much better than Bill. Bill was a decent score, and great on the boards, but Wilt was just as good on the boards and averaged 30 a game for his career...almost twice as much as Bill (I'm too lazy to check stats, but I think it was something like that).

But, Kareem makes a great point. Jordan made the game popular, not only in US but also Worldwide...which is one of the biggest factors in him being referred to as the greatest.

You're right though, the game was so different it's too difficult to compare players from 60s to the players from 90s. One can compare Lebron/Kobe/Jordan, but it's not only difficult, almost impossible to compare them with Oscar, Jerry West, and other greats who played decades before them.

I think Kareem's letter also kinda underscores the fact that we tend to overlook bigs in these discussions. Wings are always a sexier pick, but you can make a good argument that a great big can impact a game more than a great wing is capable of. I know that few will agree with me, but I think Dwight Howard is greatly overlooked in the conversation amongst the best players in the game today. IMO, he became the best player in the league this year, after he developed a very nice post up game. But being that he's a big, he kinda gets lost in the shine of LeBron, Kobe, Rose, Durant, Wade, etc.

I think that's true on an "all-time" basis as well. A guy like Kareem, who was a 6 time MVP and 19 time all-star who was the best player in the league for about 10-12 years is rarely ever mentioned.
  • BobS
  • Veteran
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Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Wilt is the greatest player to play the game in my opinion as well. The dude just dominated his competition like no one, and contribute in more areas than MJ did.

You can definitely make the argument. But the league that Wilt played in was so different from the one that MJ did that it's very, very difficult to compare. Heck, I think you can make a compelling case for the guy that wrote that letter too. He was unstoppable for about 12 years, and very good for another 5.

True, because of the Championships, one can make an argument for Bill. But, as a player, Wilt was much better than Bill. Bill was a decent score, and great on the boards, but Wilt was just as good on the boards and averaged 30 a game for his career...almost twice as much as Bill (I'm too lazy to check stats, but I think it was something like that).

But, Kareem makes a great point. Jordan made the game popular, not only in US but also Worldwide...which is one of the biggest factors in him being referred to as the greatest.

You're right though, the game was so different it's too difficult to compare players from 60s to the players from 90s. One can compare Lebron/Kobe/Jordan, but it's not only difficult, almost impossible to compare them with Oscar, Jerry West, and other greats who played decades before them.

How about comparing the years Kareem overlaped with Wilt in the NBA.

Wilts 14th, 15th, and 16th NBA season when he was 34, 35, and 36 years old.

Wilt: averaged 18.6 rebounds per game and 16.2 points per game but from only 10 shots per game which makes it 64%

Kareem in his 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years in the league while Wilt was playing

rounds per game: 16.2
ppg: 32.2 ppg at 56%


I think that alone shows how great a player Wilt was. In his last three years after what appeared to be an injury year of only 12 games, he still out rebounded another tall player. Wilt's shooting percentage was still far greater. In that injury year, he scored 27ppg. I as well as most of us have probably spoken with people who have seen Wilt play and all of them talk about how strong Wilt was. There were other tall players in the league and even Kareem's and Wilt's career overlapped, but Wilt still played great. Some of the guys I have talked to say Wilt was like...well...picture a 7'1" player with the strength of Shaq but with more agility and smooth play along with a smooth finish. We all know that Shaq's biggest hindrance was his lack of touch and agility. Wilt was that.

Like Shaq Wilt was a horrible free throw shooter, but had better shooting range than Shaq, I think he was at least money from 12 feet in with that "finger roll" shot of his. Still, even though he is skinny as a rail has their ever been a 7 footer who could hit outside shots like Nowitzski?
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Wilt is the greatest player to play the game in my opinion as well. The dude just dominated his competition like no one, and contribute in more areas than MJ did.

You can definitely make the argument. But the league that Wilt played in was so different from the one that MJ did that it's very, very difficult to compare. Heck, I think you can make a compelling case for the guy that wrote that letter too. He was unstoppable for about 12 years, and very good for another 5.

True, because of the Championships, one can make an argument for Bill. But, as a player, Wilt was much better than Bill. Bill was a decent score, and great on the boards, but Wilt was just as good on the boards and averaged 30 a game for his career...almost twice as much as Bill (I'm too lazy to check stats, but I think it was something like that).

But, Kareem makes a great point. Jordan made the game popular, not only in US but also Worldwide...which is one of the biggest factors in him being referred to as the greatest.

You're right though, the game was so different it's too difficult to compare players from 60s to the players from 90s. One can compare Lebron/Kobe/Jordan, but it's not only difficult, almost impossible to compare them with Oscar, Jerry West, and other greats who played decades before them.

How about comparing the years Kareem overlaped with Wilt in the NBA.

Wilts 14th, 15th, and 16th NBA season when he was 34, 35, and 36 years old.

Wilt: averaged 18.6 rebounds per game and 16.2 points per game but from only 10 shots per game which makes it 64%

Kareem in his 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years in the league while Wilt was playing

rounds per game: 16.2
ppg: 32.2 ppg at 56%


I think that alone shows how great a player Wilt was. In his last three years after what appeared to be an injury year of only 12 games, he still out rebounded another tall player. Wilt's shooting percentage was still far greater. In that injury year, he scored 27ppg. I as well as most of us have probably spoken with people who have seen Wilt play and all of them talk about how strong Wilt was. There were other tall players in the league and even Kareem's and Wilt's career overlapped, but Wilt still played great. Some of the guys I have talked to say Wilt was like...well...picture a 7'1" player with the strength of Shaq but with more agility and smooth play along with a smooth finish. We all know that Shaq's biggest hindrance was his lack of touch and agility. Wilt was that.

Like Shaq Wilt was a horrible free throw shooter, but had better shooting range than Shaq, I think he was at least money from 12 feet in with that "finger roll" shot of his. Still, even though he is skinny as a rail has their ever been a 7 footer who could hit outside shots like Nowitzski?

Sabonis
Sixth straight up KILLING IT in this thread
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Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
True, because of the Championships, one can make an argument for Bill. But, as a player, Wilt was much better than Bill. Bill was a decent score, and great on the boards, but Wilt was just as good on the boards and averaged 30 a game for his career...almost twice as much as Bill (I'm too lazy to check stats, but I think it was something like that).

But, Kareem makes a great point. Jordan made the game popular, not only in US but also Worldwide...which is one of the biggest factors in him being referred to as the greatest.

You're right though, the game was so different it's too difficult to compare players from 60s to the players from 90s. One can compare Lebron/Kobe/Jordan, but it's not only difficult, almost impossible to compare them with Oscar, Jerry West, and other greats who played decades before them.

I think Kareem's letter also kinda underscores the fact that we tend to overlook bigs in these discussions. Wings are always a sexier pick, but you can make a good argument that a great big can impact a game more than a great wing is capable of. I know that few will agree with me, but I think Dwight Howard is greatly overlooked in the conversation amongst the best players in the game today. IMO, he became the best player in the league this year, after he developed a very nice post up game. But being that he's a big, he kinda gets lost in the shine of LeBron, Kobe, Rose, Durant, Wade, etc.

I think that's true on an "all-time" basis as well. A guy like Kareem, who was a 6 time MVP and 19 time all-star who was the best player in the league for about 10-12 years is rarely ever mentioned.

Yea, for me, Dwight was the MVP last year...though Rose was right there as well. Dwight had a phenomenal year, and I bet some voters thought they will vote for Dwight for defensive player of the year, so they don't have to vote for him in MVP and can go with Rose.

But, it's so true, people enjoy watching PGs/SGs/SFs over PFs and Centers, and because of their size, ppl take Centers and PFs for granted. I remember when Shaq was dominating in the early 2000s - so many ppl's reaction was - well, he is just too big, it's not really fair. But, that's the skill...being so big and be able to not only over-power your defender, but beat him with quickness as well.

But, I'm on the fence about big men having more impact on the game. I've gone back and forth on this issue. Sure, in some aspects they have a bigger imapct, but players like Rose, Kobe, Lebron/Wade pretty much run the offense. They have the ball in their hands more than any other player on the team, so it's tough for me to say that they have less of an impact than someone like Dwight Howard.

I mean, sure they can't rebound 12 times a game, and Dwight can and he can block shots or change shots more often...but Dwight can't bring the ball up, Dwight can't stand at the top of the key and move the ball around, hell Dwight couldn't pass out of the double team before last year, and is still an average passer.

To be quite honest, my position on it is -
Originally posted by TheSixthRing:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Wilt is the greatest player to play the game in my opinion as well. The dude just dominated his competition like no one, and contribute in more areas than MJ did.

You can definitely make the argument. But the league that Wilt played in was so different from the one that MJ did that it's very, very difficult to compare. Heck, I think you can make a compelling case for the guy that wrote that letter too. He was unstoppable for about 12 years, and very good for another 5.

True, because of the Championships, one can make an argument for Bill. But, as a player, Wilt was much better than Bill. Bill was a decent score, and great on the boards, but Wilt was just as good on the boards and averaged 30 a game for his career...almost twice as much as Bill (I'm too lazy to check stats, but I think it was something like that).

But, Kareem makes a great point. Jordan made the game popular, not only in US but also Worldwide...which is one of the biggest factors in him being referred to as the greatest.

You're right though, the game was so different it's too difficult to compare players from 60s to the players from 90s. One can compare Lebron/Kobe/Jordan, but it's not only difficult, almost impossible to compare them with Oscar, Jerry West, and other greats who played decades before them.

How about comparing the years Kareem overlaped with Wilt in the NBA.

Wilts 14th, 15th, and 16th NBA season when he was 34, 35, and 36 years old.

Wilt: averaged 18.6 rebounds per game and 16.2 points per game but from only 10 shots per game which makes it 64%

Kareem in his 2nd, 3rd, and 4th years in the league while Wilt was playing

rounds per game: 16.2
ppg: 32.2 ppg at 56%


I think that alone shows how great a player Wilt was. In his last three years after what appeared to be an injury year of only 12 games, he still out rebounded another tall player. Wilt's shooting percentage was still far greater. In that injury year, he scored 27ppg. I as well as most of us have probably spoken with people who have seen Wilt play and all of them talk about how strong Wilt was. There were other tall players in the league and even Kareem's and Wilt's career overlapped, but Wilt still played great. Some of the guys I have talked to say Wilt was like...well...picture a 7'1" player with the strength of Shaq but with more agility and smooth play along with a smooth finish. We all know that Shaq's biggest hindrance was his lack of touch and agility. Wilt was that.

Like Shaq Wilt was a horrible free throw shooter, but had better shooting range than Shaq, I think he was at least money from 12 feet in with that "finger roll" shot of his. Still, even though he is skinny as a rail has their ever been a 7 footer who could hit outside shots like Nowitzski?

Sabonis

Only if he came to the NBA at a younger age. Dude was awesome.