There are 92 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Lebron vs. Jordan

Originally posted by 49ersMyLife:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by andes14:
IMO, the thing that has Jordan above LBJ (and another point for the "debate" with Kobe) for at least the forseeable future is not just his championships (after all, I doubt Jordan would have won with LBJ's Cleveland cast and I'm sure if LBJ had a Pippen he could have won a bunch), but WHO Chicago beat; that 2nd 3peat really elevated him to another level beating Stockton/Malone twice and Payton/Kemp. Nobody has prevented legends from winning it all the way Jordan did and it's not close. Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Payton (with a significant role, not piggybacking off D-Wade and the Diesel as a reserve), Ewing, R. Miller, etc. all likely end their career with some hardware if it weren't for Jordan. Those Jazz and Sonics teams are arguably in the top 10-15 single season teams of all time. Gary Payton was like a combination of Chris Paul and Deron Williams offensively and Rajon Rondo and Jason Kidd defensively. And Kemp was maybe one of the top-5 most freakishly athletic players ever...essentially Blake Griffin. They won 64 games in the regular season and took a 72 win bulls team that had only lost 1 game previously in the postseason to 6 without a healthy Nate McMillan who was instrumental to their defense. Schrempf, Hawkins, etc. really solidified that team. Those Jazz teams won 126 games in 2 years, had a top-5 PG ever and a top-3 PF ever AND real nice role players like Hornacek and Russell. Two AMAZING teams. We'll see if LBJ can do something similar. Of all the Finals' the lakers have made since 2000, only 3 were against legitimately Finals-caliber teams. '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics, and '10 Celtics. They went 1-2 there and they were very fortunate to say the least to get that 1. '00 Pacers, '01 Sixers, '02 Nets (though obviously should have been Sacramento playing them anyways), and '09 Magic were pretty weak for Finals Teams. So Kobe never prevented legends from winning. If LBJ goes on a tear and prevents guys like Rose or Durant (and Nowitzki for that matter) from ever getting any hardware, THEN it becomes a serious discussion I believe.

The one thing that bulls team never faced was a dominant Center who had sharpshooters behind the arc. Hey faced Ewing but the Knicks never really had consistent three point shooters. The Pacers gave them hell and were actually robbed of a game 7 loss vs the bulls so I dint think Jordan beats Hakeems Roxkets that had all the ingredients from a dominant center to three poin shooters who also had length in Horry and ball control with Cassell.

I still think Joedns Bulls ended up with the favorable matchups in the Finals. I don't think they beat those Rockets teams.

I think if the Rockets were good enough to beat the Bulls (with Jordan), they would have been good enough to win the west more than twice

It's all about match-ups. Rockets team would have been a bad match-up for the Bulls. I don't know who would have won, but I see what Joe is saying.

I've always thought this. And I've talked about it with a lot of people too. The Bulls were great but they had a lucky draw of time period too. They never really ran into a true dominant center deep into the playoffs or in a championship series. Because of that they won 6. But what if they did face a true dominant center? That's when Jordan retired for 2 years. So we will never know. And they had outisde shooters as others said. I think they could have given the Bulls a hell of a series or maybe even have won.
Originally posted by Niners99:
Pippen said this for 2 reasons.

A) its a sly way of saying "I was a big reason Jordan won those titles"

B) he just wants a few mins of post-career fame.

obviously LeBron isnt better than Jordan. its not even remotely close. Jordan had 100 times the drive that James does. 100 times the fire, the tenacity, the instinct, the clutch ability, the personality, etc.

LeBron is just a kid who wanted to play with his friends in a beach town. an extremely talented kid, but hes soft.

Jordan was addicted to competition. he had to win at everything he did in life. he had trouble sleeping at night. instead he spent his nights at the casino. its like he had 10 times the amount of drive than a normal person.

if he hadnt played baseball in 94 and 95, he wouldve won 8 consecutive NBA titles for the Bulls. hes the greatest basketball player of all time. just because LeBron has a bigger frame and can do all the same kinds of athletic moves means very little. lets see LeBron LEAD his team to 1 title first. when he gets to 6 we'll start talking.

btw im a Jazz fan. i hated the guy as a kid. he spoiled the title for me twice in row, but i was very aware how great he was. when LeBron gets the ball late in close games, your heart doesnt sink into your stomach because you know hes going to stick that winning shot no matter how many guys are on him.

but other than that i have no opinion on the matter.

@ the bolded... his personality?? he was a horrible father, a s**tty husband, a arrogant person in general, a bad teammate to most and a bad gambler. His personality SUCKED. Winning cures all though and MJ was a fierce competitor and winner but to say his personality is better than Lebron's? let's be serious.

Lebron's Cleveland team was/is HORRIBLE without him. The Bulls, although they didn't dominate, still made the playoffs without MJ. People forget how inferior the talent was/is on that Cleveland team. They are HORRIBLE

Jordan had a TOP 50 PLAYER OF ALL TIME on his team when he was winning Championships. Scottie Pippen was a VERY talented player and one of, if not THE BEST, defender in the league that MJ NEVER had to go against in the games. Pippen gave MJ hell in practice (MJ admitted this) which of course made everything that much easier in the game. MJ also went to college (not a knock on him, very smart decision) which helped him mature PRIOR TO getting to the NBA where as Lebron was about 5 months removed from taking SAT's and reporting to home room in the morning when he scored his first basket in the NBA.

Of course it will take a few years just to comfortable with the game. Kobe didn't even start his first year in the league So for James to be 18 years old, and still DOMINATING games at times with NO TALENT around him, says a lot about the kid. He has grown A LOT since then. His biggest knock was his jump shooting and closing games. His jump shot can still be suspect, AT TIMES but if he continues to close games the way he did versus Boston and Chicago, then I'd say he put an end to that "knock" on him.

He is 6'8 and guarded and shut down, the NBA's quickest player and MVP in Derrick Rose and will most likely have to turn around and draw the assignment of the 7'1 Dirk Nowitzki That is CRAZY how versatile Lebron is.

Being that Jordan never won a championship until he had help from a top 50 Greatest Player (Pippen), Lebron FINALLY has help on his team (D-Wade) and where is he at? In the Finals just as expected once he had some talent around him.

Titles is not a legit argument when comparing two players and there are PLENTY of dominate players in each sport that never won the big game. After Kobe won his 5th Title, people were saying "come back when he wins 6, THEN we can talk" but even if he would have won his 6th, people would of STILL had something to say.

MJ, AT THE MOMENT, is still the greatest but to think that Lebron is not going to continue to get better than he already is and won't have a chance to take that crown from MJ in the next 10 years is just ridiculous

When it's all said and done, Lebron will most likely be the best ALL AROUND player ever, face it people
It trips me out that whenever a couple of players are compared, people spend more time talking about their supporting cast than the players in question.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
It trips me out that whenever a couple of players are compared, people spend more time talking about their supporting cast than the players in question.

Probably because basketball, like most sports, is a team game and the supporting cast has a huge impact on the superstars in question's, end results. No one man, can do it by himself. If that was the case, you would just have the players in question play a little one on one
I actually like Lebron but Jordan would have never done this to Bugs and them

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
It trips me out that whenever a couple of players are compared, people spend more time talking about their supporting cast than the players in question.

Comparing individually wouldn't paint the entire picture because one could say no other player can consistently play the give me the ball and clear it out game like Lebron can due to his athletic ability and height to consistently take on front court players when driving in. I think it's Lebron's inability to play within an offense that brings him below other players.

But then again, some could also say that if Kobe or Jordan were never introduced to the Triangle Offense, then their team aspect of the game would not be what it was and is because that is one trump card Phil Jackson always had in close games and it was that if the team needs it, then give the ball to Kobe or MJ and clear out.
[ Edited by Joecool on May 30, 2011 at 1:24 PM ]
  • BobS
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,919
Originally posted by DonnieDarko:
MJ owes his success to this man

I wonder how many people even remember the great Bill Wennington? Probably you, me and a few other people.
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by DonnieDarko:
MJ owes his success to this man

I wonder how many people even remember the great Bill Wennington? Probably you, me and a few other people.

I'm apart of that few other people.
Originally posted by niners94:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by DonnieDarko:
MJ owes his success to this man

I wonder how many people even remember the great Bill Wennington? Probably you, me and a few other people.

I'm apart of that few other people.

I remember this guy getting into a minor squabble with Oliver Miller
  • TX9R
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,207
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by andes14:
IMO, the thing that has Jordan above LBJ (and another point for the "debate" with Kobe) for at least the forseeable future is not just his championships (after all, I doubt Jordan would have won with LBJ's Cleveland cast and I'm sure if LBJ had a Pippen he could have won a bunch), but WHO Chicago beat; that 2nd 3peat really elevated him to another level beating Stockton/Malone twice and Payton/Kemp. Nobody has prevented legends from winning it all the way Jordan did and it's not close. Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Payton (with a significant role, not piggybacking off D-Wade and the Diesel as a reserve), Ewing, R. Miller, etc. all likely end their career with some hardware if it weren't for Jordan. Those Jazz and Sonics teams are arguably in the top 10-15 single season teams of all time. Gary Payton was like a combination of Chris Paul and Deron Williams offensively and Rajon Rondo and Jason Kidd defensively. And Kemp was maybe one of the top-5 most freakishly athletic players ever...essentially Blake Griffin. They won 64 games in the regular season and took a 72 win bulls team that had only lost 1 game previously in the postseason to 6 without a healthy Nate McMillan who was instrumental to their defense. Schrempf, Hawkins, etc. really solidified that team. Those Jazz teams won 126 games in 2 years, had a top-5 PG ever and a top-3 PF ever AND real nice role players like Hornacek and Russell. Two AMAZING teams. We'll see if LBJ can do something similar. Of all the Finals' the lakers have made since 2000, only 3 were against legitimately Finals-caliber teams. '04 Pistons, '08 Celtics, and '10 Celtics. They went 1-2 there and they were very fortunate to say the least to get that 1. '00 Pacers, '01 Sixers, '02 Nets (though obviously should have been Sacramento playing them anyways), and '09 Magic were pretty weak for Finals Teams. So Kobe never prevented legends from winning. If LBJ goes on a tear and prevents guys like Rose or Durant (and Nowitzki for that matter) from ever getting any hardware, THEN it becomes a serious discussion I believe.

The one thing that bulls team never faced was a dominant Center who had sharpshooters behind the arc. Hey faced Ewing but the Knicks never really had consistent three point shooters. The Pacers gave them hell and were actually robbed of a game 7 loss vs the bulls so I dint think Jordan beats Hakeems Roxkets that had all the ingredients from a dominant center to three poin shooters who also had length in Horry and ball control with Cassell.

I still think Joedns Bulls ended up with the favorable matchups in the Finals. I don't think they beat those Rockets teams.

I think if the Rockets were good enough to beat the Bulls (with Jordan), they would have been good enough to win the west more than twice

If you paid attention to those teams, which I doubt anyone outside of Houston did, you would know the Sonics were the reason Houston didn't win the west every year. They were a bad matchup because Sam Perkins was a 3pt shooting C who drew Hakeem away from the basket and that took away his ability to guard it. Houston went to 2 Finals and won because someone else did them the favor of knocking out Seattle. The previous and after series they got Houston every time.

Had it ever happened, the Bulls would not have presented this problem and seeing as how Chicago had no C, no Rodman, and No Horace Grant, Hakeem would have eaten them alive. People always forget the 2 years Jordan was gone that team was in transition and when MJ returned, Scotty was really the only meaningful teammate left. I don't think the Bulls even make the finals those 2 years even with Jordan.
Lebron has 0 rings
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by DonnieDarko:
MJ owes his success to this man

I wonder how many people even remember the great Bill Wennington? Probably you, me and a few other people.

i do, he was the best canadian player until nash came around
Originally posted by Sims84:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
It trips me out that whenever a couple of players are compared, people spend more time talking about their supporting cast than the players in question.

Probably because basketball, like most sports, is a team game and the supporting cast has a huge impact on the superstars in question's, end results. No one man, can do it by himself. If that was the case, you would just have the players in question play a little one on one

I'm well aware that it's a team game, and being that the entire point of this team game is to win, the best way to evaluate a player is by gauging how much he contributes toward that goal...even if that goal is/isn't ultimately achieved due to factors that are out of his control, such as teammates.
I don't agree with Kareem on a lot of this, but thought this was interesting.

How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill's rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
I don't agree with Kareem on a lot of this, but thought this was interesting.

How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt.

In terms of winning, Michael excelled as both an emotional and scoring leader but Bill Russell’s Celtics won eight consecutive NBA Championships. Bill's rebounding average per game is over 22.5 lifetime, MJs best rebounding years was eight per game (1989). But we will never know exactly how many shots Bill Russell blocked because again, they never kept that statistic while he played. However, if you ask anybody that played against Russell, they will just roll their eyes and say he blocked all the shots he wanted to block in the crucial moments of a game.

Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever. As dominant as he is, LeBron has yet to win a championship. I must say that it looks like Miami has finally put the team together that will change that circumstance. Its my hope that today’s players get a better perspective on exactly what has been done in this league in the days of yore.

Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA’s All-Time Leading Scorer

P.S. I WANT MY f**kING STATUE!

fixed