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Lebron vs. Jordan

Originally posted by LA9erFan:
LeBron is a very good passer, especially for his size, but please stop saying that his passing and vision is comparable to Magic Johnson. Magic orchestrated one of the greatest offenses the game has ever seen, and is the career leader in assists per game. On a more specific level, he was great at making every type of pass that there was to make, a had court vision that only Stockton, Kidd, Bird, & Nash shared with him. LeBron is a great pocket passer on the pick and roll and does a great job of hitting 3 point shooters in a scoring position, but he is nowhere near the passing genius of Magic.

You'll get no argument from me on the other elements of their game, but LeBron doesn't belong in the same breath as Magic as a passer. That's no disrespect to LeBron. Only those 4 guys I mentioned are even remotely close, IMO.




Does anybody want some?
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
LeBron is a very good passer, especially for his size, but please stop saying that his passing and vision is comparable to Magic Johnson. Magic orchestrated one of the greatest offenses the game has ever seen, and is the career leader in assists per game. On a more specific level, he was great at making every type of pass that there was to make, a had court vision that only Stockton, Kidd, Bird, & Nash shared with him. LeBron is a great pocket passer on the pick and roll and does a great job of hitting 3 point shooters in a scoring position, but he is nowhere near the passing genius of Magic.

You'll get no argument from me on the other elements of their game, but LeBron doesn't belong in the same breath as Magic as a passer. That's no disrespect to LeBron. Only those 4 guys I mentioned are even remotely close, IMO.


I don't know about Kidd and Bird being top-5 passers ever. Kidd only had 3 double digit assist seasons and topped out at 10.8, Bird never even hit 8 asst/per in any season. Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and probably a few others were better passers than them.
Originally posted by andes14:
I don't know about Kidd and Bird being top-5 passers ever. Kidd only had 3 double digit assist seasons and topped out at 10.8, Bird never even hit 8 asst/per in any season. Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and probably a few others were better passers than them.

No way in hell was Isiah Thomas a better passer than Jason Kidd. Thomas was more of a "score first" PG for most of his career. Comparing raw numbers is a very skewed metric, because Thomas was in his prime during a very high scoring era, whereas Kidd was in his prime during a very low scoring era.

Kidd led the league in assists 5 times, and was either 2nd or 3rd another 5 times. By contrast, Thomas led the league once, and was either 2nd or 3rd three other times. I don't even think Isiah Thomas thinks he was a better passer than Jason Kidd.

There's not enough surviving footage of Oscar passing the ball for me to have an opinion on him either way. He played in a small market (Cincinnati) and on a consistently bad-to-average team, and their games were rarely televised. If you've seen enough footage on him to feel comfortable in having an opinion, please let me know where you've found it because I've been looking for years.

Bird didn't run the Celtic offense (well, he shared the responsibility with DJ), so his numbers are lower as a result. But his court vision was on par with the best, IMO.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by andes14:
I don't know about Kidd and Bird being top-5 passers ever. Kidd only had 3 double digit assist seasons and topped out at 10.8, Bird never even hit 8 asst/per in any season. Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and probably a few others were better passers than them.

No way in hell was Isiah Thomas a better passer than Jason Kidd. Thomas was more of a "score first" PG for most of his career. Comparing raw numbers is a very skewed metric, because Thomas was in his prime during a very high scoring era, whereas Kidd was in his prime during a very low scoring era.

Kidd led the league in assists 5 times, and was either 2nd or 3rd another 5 times. By contrast, Thomas led the league once, and was either 2nd or 3rd three other times. I don't even think Isiah Thomas thinks he was a better passer than Jason Kidd.

There's not enough surviving footage of Oscar passing the ball for me to have an opinion on him either way. He played in a small market (Cincinnati) and on a consistently bad-to-average team, and their games were rarely televised. If you've seen enough footage on him to feel comfortable in having an opinion, please let me know where you've found it because I've been looking for years.

Bird didn't run the Celtic offense (well, he shared the responsibility with DJ), so his numbers are lower as a result. But his court vision was on par with the best, IMO.

What about Mark Jackson and Kevin Johnson? I think they deserve to be in the same discussion as Kidd and Bird in terms of passing/vision.

[ Edited by andes14 on Jun 8, 2011 at 15:24:03 ]
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by andes14:
I don't know about Kidd and Bird being top-5 passers ever. Kidd only had 3 double digit assist seasons and topped out at 10.8, Bird never even hit 8 asst/per in any season. Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and probably a few others were better passers than them.

No way in hell was Isiah Thomas a better passer than Jason Kidd. Thomas was more of a "score first" PG for most of his career. Comparing raw numbers is a very skewed metric, because Thomas was in his prime during a very high scoring era, whereas Kidd was in his prime during a very low scoring era.

Kidd led the league in assists 5 times, and was either 2nd or 3rd another 5 times. By contrast, Thomas led the league once, and was either 2nd or 3rd three other times. I don't even think Isiah Thomas thinks he was a better passer than Jason Kidd.

There's not enough surviving footage of Oscar passing the ball for me to have an opinion on him either way. He played in a small market (Cincinnati) and on a consistently bad-to-average team, and their games were rarely televised. If you've seen enough footage on him to feel comfortable in having an opinion, please let me know where you've found it because I've been looking for years.

Bird didn't run the Celtic offense (well, he shared the responsibility with DJ), so his numbers are lower as a result. But his court vision was on par with the best, IMO.

What about Mark Jackson and Kevin Johnson?

I can't roll with either of 'em ahead of Kidd, dude. Jackson was a superb passer for a very long time, but again...only led the league in assists once and was only Top 3 two other times.

Mind you, that's not the end-all-be-all metric to judge by or anything, but I think it would be difficult to support the opinion that Jackson was a better passer than Kidd. Same with KJ, even though I think he's one of the most underrated players ever.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by andes14:
I don't know about Kidd and Bird being top-5 passers ever. Kidd only had 3 double digit assist seasons and topped out at 10.8, Bird never even hit 8 asst/per in any season. Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and probably a few others were better passers than them.

No way in hell was Isiah Thomas a better passer than Jason Kidd. Thomas was more of a "score first" PG for most of his career. Comparing raw numbers is a very skewed metric, because Thomas was in his prime during a very high scoring era, whereas Kidd was in his prime during a very low scoring era.

Kidd led the league in assists 5 times, and was either 2nd or 3rd another 5 times. By contrast, Thomas led the league once, and was either 2nd or 3rd three other times. I don't even think Isiah Thomas thinks he was a better passer than Jason Kidd.

There's not enough surviving footage of Oscar passing the ball for me to have an opinion on him either way. He played in a small market (Cincinnati) and on a consistently bad-to-average team, and their games were rarely televised. If you've seen enough footage on him to feel comfortable in having an opinion, please let me know where you've found it because I've been looking for years.

Bird didn't run the Celtic offense (well, he shared the responsibility with DJ), so his numbers are lower as a result. But his court vision was on par with the best, IMO.

What about Mark Jackson and Kevin Johnson?

I can't roll with either of 'em ahead of Kidd, dude. Jackson was a superb passer for a very long time, but again...only led the league in assists once and was only Top 3 two other times.

Mind you, that's not the end-all-be-all metric to judge by or anything, but I think it would be difficult to support the opinion that Jackson was a better passer than Kidd. Same with KJ, even though I think he's one of the most underrated players ever.

How did Magic's back-up pg's throughout his career compare to him in terms of assists per 48 minutes? Was there a huge discepancy?
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by andes14:
I don't know about Kidd and Bird being top-5 passers ever. Kidd only had 3 double digit assist seasons and topped out at 10.8, Bird never even hit 8 asst/per in any season. Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and probably a few others were better passers than them.

No way in hell was Isiah Thomas a better passer than Jason Kidd. Thomas was more of a "score first" PG for most of his career. Comparing raw numbers is a very skewed metric, because Thomas was in his prime during a very high scoring era, whereas Kidd was in his prime during a very low scoring era.

Kidd led the league in assists 5 times, and was either 2nd or 3rd another 5 times. By contrast, Thomas led the league once, and was either 2nd or 3rd three other times. I don't even think Isiah Thomas thinks he was a better passer than Jason Kidd.

There's not enough surviving footage of Oscar passing the ball for me to have an opinion on him either way. He played in a small market (Cincinnati) and on a consistently bad-to-average team, and their games were rarely televised. If you've seen enough footage on him to feel comfortable in having an opinion, please let me know where you've found it because I've been looking for years.

Bird didn't run the Celtic offense (well, he shared the responsibility with DJ), so his numbers are lower as a result. But his court vision was on par with the best, IMO.

What about Mark Jackson and Kevin Johnson?

I can't roll with either of 'em ahead of Kidd, dude. Jackson was a superb passer for a very long time, but again...only led the league in assists once and was only Top 3 two other times.

Mind you, that's not the end-all-be-all metric to judge by or anything, but I think it would be difficult to support the opinion that Jackson was a better passer than Kidd. Same with KJ, even though I think he's one of the most underrated players ever.

How did Magic's back-up pg's throughout his career compare to him in terms of assists per 48 minutes? Was there a huge discepancy?

It would be impossible to calculate that without watching every single game he played. Reason being, Michael Cooper was largely responsible for the backup PG duties, but he also played SG and even some SF, next to Magic. You'd have to be able to separate the minutes he was playing PG from the minutes he wasn't.

In his best seasons, Cooper was between 7.1 & 7.4apg per 36 minutes, and his career average per 36 was 5.6apg. By contrast, Magic was at 11.0apg for his career.

But as I said, it's not an apples to apples comparison.
  • Amir
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 25,858
Mark Jackson said that he thinks D-Wade is the third best SG of all time behind Jordan and Kobe. What do ya'll think?
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Mark Jackson said that he thinks D-Wade is the third best SG of all time behind Jordan and Kobe. What do ya'll think?

I'd have to agree. I can't think of another SG I'd take over Wade, outside MJ and Kobe. Clyde in his prime, maybe.
  • Amir
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 25,858
Originally posted by TheSixthRing:
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Mark Jackson said that he thinks D-Wade is the third best SG of all time behind Jordan and Kobe. What do ya'll think?

I'd have to agree. I can't think of another SG I'd take over Wade, outside MJ and Kobe. Clyde in his prime, maybe.

Reggie??
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Originally posted by TheSixthRing:
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Mark Jackson said that he thinks D-Wade is the third best SG of all time behind Jordan and Kobe. What do ya'll think?

I'd have to agree. I can't think of another SG I'd take over Wade, outside MJ and Kobe. Clyde in his prime, maybe.

Reggie??

f**k the ferengi.
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Mark Jackson said that he thinks D-Wade is the third best SG of all time behind Jordan and Kobe. What do ya'll think?

I'd say he is #2
  • Amir
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 25,858
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Mark Jackson said that he thinks D-Wade is the third best SG of all time behind Jordan and Kobe. What do ya'll think?

I'd say he is #2

You'd put D-Herps over Kobe??? No way!!!

I can agree with the argument of him being 3 but no way 2.
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Mark Jackson said that he thinks D-Wade is the third best SG of all time behind Jordan and Kobe. What do ya'll think?

I'd say he is #2

You'd put D-Herps over Kobe??? No way!!!

I can agree with the argument of him being 3 but no way 2.

LOL

Give it some time!
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by Amir_Mamu:
Mark Jackson said that he thinks D-Wade is the third best SG of all time behind Jordan and Kobe. What do ya'll think?

I'd say he is #2

You'd put D-Herps over Kobe??? No way!!!

I can agree with the argument of him being 3 but no way 2.

Why exactly is there no way that D-Wade is #2 behind only Jordan.

Also, Reggie Miller is AT BEST 7-8 on the list...AT BEST.