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General NBA Playoff Discussion

Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Numbers can help a lot of debates but they don't tell the entire impact of the player. Numbers can also claim that Jason Kidd was one of the best 3-point shooters in the game and his percentages are not too far behind Ray Allens'.

But, we have all seen them play and know this isn't even a close argument but 30 years from now, someone can debate this using numbers alone.

Exactly. Most of you are not 50 years old as I am and I have been watching sports since I was 5. So there is next to no one in here that has witnessed the evolution of football and basketball due to rule changes like I have. It is also rare that commentators and sports shows ever mention the evolution of the rules in these games. How many guys under 40 in here know that they used to shoot all fouls in NBA games? That offensive lineman in the NFL basically could not extend their arms when blocking? That defensive lineman could hit an offensive lineman in the head? Rule changes over the years have made it to where you just can't blindly compare stats.

Wilt was not a better rebounder than Rodman. He was loads taller than all the other bigs and Rodman was way shorter than all the other bigs and he STILL gobbled up a higher % of boards. C'mon now..
Since the early 1990s, the only coaches to win a championship are Phil Jackson, Pop, Rudy T, Doc Rivers and Pat Riley.


Looks like a new coach will win this year
I hate how they have the ECF scheduled. Next game is wednesday then game 3 is on sunday
Originally posted by valrod33:
I hate how they have the ECF scheduled. Next game is wednesday then game 3 is on sunday

Strongly worded letter to follow?
Originally posted by dobo:
Originally posted by valrod33:
I hate how they have the ECF scheduled. Next game is wednesday then game 3 is on sunday

Strongly worded letter to follow?

Of course
  • BobS
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,900
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Numbers can help a lot of debates but they don't tell the entire impact of the player. Numbers can also claim that Jason Kidd was one of the best 3-point shooters in the game and his percentages are not too far behind Ray Allens'.

But, we have all seen them play and know this isn't even a close argument but 30 years from now, someone can debate this using numbers alone.

Exactly. Most of you are not 50 years old as I am and I have been watching sports since I was 5. So there is next to no one in here that has witnessed the evolution of football and basketball due to rule changes like I have. It is also rare that commentators and sports shows ever mention the evolution of the rules in these games. How many guys under 40 in here know that they used to shoot all fouls in NBA games? That offensive lineman in the NFL basically could not extend their arms when blocking? That defensive lineman could hit an offensive lineman in the head? Rule changes over the years have made it to where you just can't blindly compare stats.

Wilt was not a better rebounder than Rodman. He was loads taller than all the other bigs and Rodman was way shorter than all the other bigs and he STILL gobbled up a higher % of boards. C'mon now..

I guess you must define rebounder? Rodman led the league for many years while giving away 4 inches and 50 pounds to the average biggest guy on the court. Wilt was the biggest guy on the court, but had to contend with a lot of double teams and sometimes triple teams. True Wilt did use size and strength to dominate, but he was more athletic than people think. Rodman made rebounding an art, he seemed to know exactly what he could get away with to get position and grab rebounds with out picking up too many fouls.
Originally posted by valrod33:
Originally posted by dobo:
Originally posted by valrod33:
I hate how they have the ECF scheduled. Next game is wednesday then game 3 is on sunday

Strongly worded letter to follow?

Of course

I never understand the NBA playoff schedule. LA cleared it up last year, I think it was, but it still is a WTF each year.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Numbers can help a lot of debates but they don't tell the entire impact of the player. Numbers can also claim that Jason Kidd was one of the best 3-point shooters in the game and his percentages are not too far behind Ray Allens'.

But, we have all seen them play and know this isn't even a close argument but 30 years from now, someone can debate this using numbers alone.

Exactly. Most of you are not 50 years old as I am and I have been watching sports since I was 5. So there is next to no one in here that has witnessed the evolution of football and basketball due to rule changes like I have. It is also rare that commentators and sports shows ever mention the evolution of the rules in these games. How many guys under 40 in here know that they used to shoot all fouls in NBA games? That offensive lineman in the NFL basically could not extend their arms when blocking? That defensive lineman could hit an offensive lineman in the head? Rule changes over the years have made it to where you just can't blindly compare stats.

Being older doesn't add any validity to your opinion.

No one was "blindly comparing stats". I gave other reasons as well...such as the TREMENDOUS gap in size & athleticism between Wilt & Rodman's era...along with using stats to show that there were many more available rebounds in his era.

I could have also mentioned that for the first few years of Wilt's career, the lane wasn't as wide as it is now, so Wilt would just camp out virtually right next to the basket. The lane was widened in 1965.

And finally, Wilt played his last game in 1973. So if you're 50 years old, that means that he retired when you were about 12 years old, and in an era when there weren't nearly as many televised games. And it also means you were still in diapers when he was in his prime.

Spare me the "I'm older so I know more" junk.

It seems you are the typical modern day young guy who has no respect for what someone older than you experienced with their own two eyes. Even back in the stone ages most Laker away games were on TV and all home games were broadcast on radio. With Chick Hearn calling the games on radio, he didn't miss anything, you could visualize what was happening. I am sure your knowledge of the past you read on the internet is way more accurate than what I saw with my own two eyes.

Cut the crap. You were 12 years old when he RETIRED. You were much younger when he was in his prime. So I'm supposed to bow to your knowledge based on your recollection of Chamberlain when you watched him sparingly 40 years ago as a boy, and because Chick Hearn painted such a vivid picture?

There's plenty of surviving footage of Chamberlain. The basis of my opinions aren't him aren't simply "the past I read on the internet.

You're right, I have no inherent respect for what someone older saw. There are plenty of stupid old people. There are plenty of brilliant and wise ones too. Age doesn't rid you of stupidity, nor does it endow you with wisdom.

I could listen to John Wooden (RIP), Hubie Brown, Jerry West, etc. talk about basketball all day...and it ain't because they're old.

Sorry Pete, but you're wrong on this one. Players back then were just much better. The short shorts allowed for more breathing room down there as well as the shoes being made exclusively from canvas, allowing for higher verticals.
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Numbers can help a lot of debates but they don't tell the entire impact of the player. Numbers can also claim that Jason Kidd was one of the best 3-point shooters in the game and his percentages are not too far behind Ray Allens'.

But, we have all seen them play and know this isn't even a close argument but 30 years from now, someone can debate this using numbers alone.

Exactly. Most of you are not 50 years old as I am and I have been watching sports since I was 5. So there is next to no one in here that has witnessed the evolution of football and basketball due to rule changes like I have. It is also rare that commentators and sports shows ever mention the evolution of the rules in these games. How many guys under 40 in here know that they used to shoot all fouls in NBA games? That offensive lineman in the NFL basically could not extend their arms when blocking? That defensive lineman could hit an offensive lineman in the head? Rule changes over the years have made it to where you just can't blindly compare stats.

Wilt was not a better rebounder than Rodman. He was loads taller than all the other bigs and Rodman was way shorter than all the other bigs and he STILL gobbled up a higher % of boards. C'mon now..

I guess you must define rebounder? Rodman led the league for many years while giving away 4 inches and 50 pounds to the average biggest guy on the court. Wilt was the biggest guy on the court, but had to contend with a lot of double teams and sometimes triple teams. True Wilt did use size and strength to dominate, but he was more athletic than people think. Rodman made rebounding an art, he seemed to know exactly what he could get away with to get position and grab rebounds with out picking up too many fouls.

I still think being a primary scorer and shot-blocker makes it much more difficult to get into position for rebounding. In fact, it usually puts a player completely out of position to rebound. Players like Wallace, Barkely, and Wilt were still considered at the top in terms of rebounding but also took on more responsibilities. Rodman had the luxury of not being a shot blocker or scorer where all he had to focus on was keeping his body between his opponent and the basket, even if he were guarding a post-up scorer.

What Kevin Love did this year, averaging 15.2 rbs/game and scoring 20 is a far greater rebounding display than what Dennis Rodman did.
[ Edited by Joecool on May 16, 2011 at 10:39 AM ]
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Numbers can help a lot of debates but they don't tell the entire impact of the player. Numbers can also claim that Jason Kidd was one of the best 3-point shooters in the game and his percentages are not too far behind Ray Allens'.

But, we have all seen them play and know this isn't even a close argument but 30 years from now, someone can debate this using numbers alone.

Exactly. Most of you are not 50 years old as I am and I have been watching sports since I was 5. So there is next to no one in here that has witnessed the evolution of football and basketball due to rule changes like I have. It is also rare that commentators and sports shows ever mention the evolution of the rules in these games. How many guys under 40 in here know that they used to shoot all fouls in NBA games? That offensive lineman in the NFL basically could not extend their arms when blocking? That defensive lineman could hit an offensive lineman in the head? Rule changes over the years have made it to where you just can't blindly compare stats.

Wilt was not a better rebounder than Rodman. He was loads taller than all the other bigs and Rodman was way shorter than all the other bigs and he STILL gobbled up a higher % of boards. C'mon now..

I guess you must define rebounder? Rodman led the league for many years while giving away 4 inches and 50 pounds to the average biggest guy on the court. Wilt was the biggest guy on the court, but had to contend with a lot of double teams and sometimes triple teams. True Wilt did use size and strength to dominate, but he was more athletic than people think. Rodman made rebounding an art, he seemed to know exactly what he could get away with to get position and grab rebounds with out picking up too many fouls.

I still think being a primary scorer and shot-blocker makes it much more difficult to get into position for rebounding. In fact, it usually puts a player completely out of position to rebound. Players like Wallace, Barkely, and Wilt were still considered at the top in terms of rebounding but also took on more responsibilities. Rodman had the luxury of not being a shot blocker or scorer where all he had to focus on was keeping his body between his opponent and the basket, even if he were guarding a post-up scorer.

What Kevin Love did this year, averaging 15.2 rbs/game and scoring 20 is a far greater rebounding display than what Dennis Rodman did.

Wow!

what non sense! Rodman used to study game tape on player's missed shots to see if they had a tendency to miss and bounce short, long, right and left. It was not about just boxing someone out, he was also a superb defender.

Think of Rodman as a guy of Michael Jordan's body type, and Russel's rebounding ability. Pound for pound the best rebounder of all time for sure, if not the greatest rebounder ever.
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Numbers can help a lot of debates but they don't tell the entire impact of the player. Numbers can also claim that Jason Kidd was one of the best 3-point shooters in the game and his percentages are not too far behind Ray Allens'.

But, we have all seen them play and know this isn't even a close argument but 30 years from now, someone can debate this using numbers alone.

Exactly. Most of you are not 50 years old as I am and I have been watching sports since I was 5. So there is next to no one in here that has witnessed the evolution of football and basketball due to rule changes like I have. It is also rare that commentators and sports shows ever mention the evolution of the rules in these games. How many guys under 40 in here know that they used to shoot all fouls in NBA games? That offensive lineman in the NFL basically could not extend their arms when blocking? That defensive lineman could hit an offensive lineman in the head? Rule changes over the years have made it to where you just can't blindly compare stats.

Wilt was not a better rebounder than Rodman. He was loads taller than all the other bigs and Rodman was way shorter than all the other bigs and he STILL gobbled up a higher % of boards. C'mon now..

I guess you must define rebounder? Rodman led the league for many years while giving away 4 inches and 50 pounds to the average biggest guy on the court. Wilt was the biggest guy on the court, but had to contend with a lot of double teams and sometimes triple teams. True Wilt did use size and strength to dominate, but he was more athletic than people think. Rodman made rebounding an art, he seemed to know exactly what he could get away with to get position and grab rebounds with out picking up too many fouls.

I still think being a primary scorer and shot-blocker makes it much more difficult to get into position for rebounding. In fact, it usually puts a player completely out of position to rebound. Players like Wallace, Barkely, and Wilt were still considered at the top in terms of rebounding but also took on more responsibilities. Rodman had the luxury of not being a shot blocker or scorer where all he had to focus on was keeping his body between his opponent and the basket, even if he were guarding a post-up scorer.

What Kevin Love did this year, averaging 15.2 rbs/game and scoring 20 is a far greater rebounding display than what Dennis Rodman did.

Wow!

what non sense! Rodman used to study game tape on player's missed shots to see if they had a tendency to miss and bounce short, long, right and left. It was not about just boxing someone out, he was also a superb defender.

Think of Rodman as a guy of Michael Jordan's body type, and Russel's rebounding ability. Pound for pound the best rebounder of all time for sure, if not the greatest rebounder ever.

Yes, but that was all he was required to do. I don't want to take away his desire to be able to do one thing great but he was able to do one thing great because he was not required to do anything else.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Numbers can help a lot of debates but they don't tell the entire impact of the player. Numbers can also claim that Jason Kidd was one of the best 3-point shooters in the game and his percentages are not too far behind Ray Allens'.

But, we have all seen them play and know this isn't even a close argument but 30 years from now, someone can debate this using numbers alone.

Exactly. Most of you are not 50 years old as I am and I have been watching sports since I was 5. So there is next to no one in here that has witnessed the evolution of football and basketball due to rule changes like I have. It is also rare that commentators and sports shows ever mention the evolution of the rules in these games. How many guys under 40 in here know that they used to shoot all fouls in NBA games? That offensive lineman in the NFL basically could not extend their arms when blocking? That defensive lineman could hit an offensive lineman in the head? Rule changes over the years have made it to where you just can't blindly compare stats.

Wilt was not a better rebounder than Rodman. He was loads taller than all the other bigs and Rodman was way shorter than all the other bigs and he STILL gobbled up a higher % of boards. C'mon now..

I guess you must define rebounder? Rodman led the league for many years while giving away 4 inches and 50 pounds to the average biggest guy on the court. Wilt was the biggest guy on the court, but had to contend with a lot of double teams and sometimes triple teams. True Wilt did use size and strength to dominate, but he was more athletic than people think. Rodman made rebounding an art, he seemed to know exactly what he could get away with to get position and grab rebounds with out picking up too many fouls.

I still think being a primary scorer and shot-blocker makes it much more difficult to get into position for rebounding. In fact, it usually puts a player completely out of position to rebound. Players like Wallace, Barkely, and Wilt were still considered at the top in terms of rebounding but also took on more responsibilities. Rodman had the luxury of not being a shot blocker or scorer where all he had to focus on was keeping his body between his opponent and the basket, even if he were guarding a post-up scorer.

What Kevin Love did this year, averaging 15.2 rbs/game and scoring 20 is a far greater rebounding display than what Dennis Rodman did.

Wow!

what non sense! Rodman used to study game tape on player's missed shots to see if they had a tendency to miss and bounce short, long, right and left. It was not about just boxing someone out, he was also a superb defender.

Think of Rodman as a guy of Michael Jordan's body type, and Russel's rebounding ability. Pound for pound the best rebounder of all time for sure, if not the greatest rebounder ever.

Yes, but that was all he was required to do. I don't want to take away his desire to be able to do one thing great but he was able to do one thing great because he was not required to do anything else.

ok, so by the same standard..... the body that was on Rodman had nothing to worry about except boxing him out. Yet Rodman still got his on bigger players
Okay guys im here to settle this

Dennis rodman is the best Rebounder of all time.

You can go about your day now, I HAVE SPOKEN
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by blizzuntz:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by andes14:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Numbers can help a lot of debates but they don't tell the entire impact of the player. Numbers can also claim that Jason Kidd was one of the best 3-point shooters in the game and his percentages are not too far behind Ray Allens'.

But, we have all seen them play and know this isn't even a close argument but 30 years from now, someone can debate this using numbers alone.

Exactly. Most of you are not 50 years old as I am and I have been watching sports since I was 5. So there is next to no one in here that has witnessed the evolution of football and basketball due to rule changes like I have. It is also rare that commentators and sports shows ever mention the evolution of the rules in these games. How many guys under 40 in here know that they used to shoot all fouls in NBA games? That offensive lineman in the NFL basically could not extend their arms when blocking? That defensive lineman could hit an offensive lineman in the head? Rule changes over the years have made it to where you just can't blindly compare stats.

Wilt was not a better rebounder than Rodman. He was loads taller than all the other bigs and Rodman was way shorter than all the other bigs and he STILL gobbled up a higher % of boards. C'mon now..

I guess you must define rebounder? Rodman led the league for many years while giving away 4 inches and 50 pounds to the average biggest guy on the court. Wilt was the biggest guy on the court, but had to contend with a lot of double teams and sometimes triple teams. True Wilt did use size and strength to dominate, but he was more athletic than people think. Rodman made rebounding an art, he seemed to know exactly what he could get away with to get position and grab rebounds with out picking up too many fouls.

I still think being a primary scorer and shot-blocker makes it much more difficult to get into position for rebounding. In fact, it usually puts a player completely out of position to rebound. Players like Wallace, Barkely, and Wilt were still considered at the top in terms of rebounding but also took on more responsibilities. Rodman had the luxury of not being a shot blocker or scorer where all he had to focus on was keeping his body between his opponent and the basket, even if he were guarding a post-up scorer.

What Kevin Love did this year, averaging 15.2 rbs/game and scoring 20 is a far greater rebounding display than what Dennis Rodman did.

Wow!

what non sense! Rodman used to study game tape on player's missed shots to see if they had a tendency to miss and bounce short, long, right and left. It was not about just boxing someone out, he was also a superb defender.

Think of Rodman as a guy of Michael Jordan's body type, and Russel's rebounding ability. Pound for pound the best rebounder of all time for sure, if not the greatest rebounder ever.

Yes, but that was all he was required to do. I don't want to take away his desire to be able to do one thing great but he was able to do one thing great because he was not required to do anything else.

ok, so by the same standard..... the body that was on Rodman had nothing to worry about except boxing him out. Yet Rodman still got his on bigger players

Rodman was primarily guarding the other teams best post scorer. Those players' responsibility was to score, not to clean-up so they were not boxing Rodman out. Since Rodman wasn't a shot blocker, his main strategy was to stay in front.

This is why Rodman didn't have the best offensive rebounding stats. The defense's primary goal was to box Rodman out. So in his best 18.7 per game year, he averaged 4.0 offensive rebounds. Charles Barkley averaged 4.0 offensive rebounds for his career. Barkley's best 14.6 rebounding year, he averaged 5.7 offensive rebounds per game.

So, does that make Barkley a better rebounder than Rodman on the offensive end?
Pound for pound, Jason Kidd is the best rebounder ever.