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General NBA Playoff Discussion

  • AmpLee
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 16,021
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Tman:
Now this was a big 3


I was thinking the other day that that team had arguably 4 guys on that team where you could say he was the greatest _____ ever.

(arguably)

Jordan was the greatest player ever.
Pippen was the greatest perimeter defender ever.
Rodman was the greatest rebounder ever.
Kerr was the greatest spot up shooter ever.

You could even add Phil Jackson as the greatest coach ever if you wanted to expand those rules a bit.
  • BobS
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,324
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Tman:
Now this was a big 3


I was thinking the other day that that team had arguably 4 guys on that team where you could say he was the greatest _____ ever.

(arguably)

Jordan was the greatest player ever.
Pippen was the greatest perimeter defender ever.
Rodman was the greatest rebounder ever.
Kerr was the greatest spot up shooter ever.

I guess you never heard of a guy named Wilt Chamberlain?

Tough to compare. Wilt played in an unathletic and short league that averaged 119 PPG while only shooting 41-42% from the field for most of his career.

How do you average 119 PPG while shooting 41%? By shooting a TON of shots. There were way, way more possessions in Wilt's era than there are now.

The average team in 1961 got 5,789 rebounds in a 79 game season. In 1991, the average team got 3,547. It's easy to outrebound a guy when there are 63% more available rebounds.

They shot all the fouls. What would now be ball out of bounds with :14 on the shot clock was 1 + 1 (make the first get a second). In the penalty a non shooting foul was 2 shots, like it is now. In the penalty a shooting foul was 3 to make 2. So even though there was no 3pt line, a lot of scoring was done with the clock stopped.
Wilt averaged 22.9 rebounds a game for a career while averaging 30.1 points. If he was like Rodman and just concentrated on rebounding he would have probably averaged 30 a game.
[ Edited by BobS on May 11, 2011 at 10:03 PM ]
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Tman:
Now this was a big 3


I was thinking the other day that that team had arguably 4 guys on that team where you could say he was the greatest _____ ever.

(arguably)

Jordan was the greatest player ever.
Pippen was the greatest perimeter defender ever.
Rodman was the greatest rebounder ever.
Kerr was the greatest spot up shooter ever.

I guess you never heard of a guy named Wilt Chamberlain?

Tough to compare. Wilt played in an unathletic and short league that averaged 119 PPG while only shooting 41-42% from the field for most of his career.

How do you average 119 PPG while shooting 41%? By shooting a TON of shots. There were way, way more possessions in Wilt's era than there are now.

The average team in 1961 got 5,789 rebounds in a 79 game season. In 1991, the average team got 3,547. It's easy to outrebound a guy when there are 63% more available rebounds.

They shot all the fouls. What would now be ball out of bounds with :14 on the shot clock was 1 + 1 (make the first get a second). In the penalty a non shooting foul was 2 shots, like it is now. In the penalty a shooting foul was 3 to make 2. So even though there was no 3pt line, a lot of scoring was done with the clock stopped.
Wilt averaged 22.9 rebounds a game for a career while averaging 30.1 points. If he was like Rodman and just concentrated on rebounding he would have probably averaged 30 a game.

The foul rules are part of what created extra possessions (about 10 extra FTs per game) but they also took a lot more Field Goal Attempts (over 18 more per game. A lot of extra rebounds were created as a result.

The year Rodman averaged 18.7 RPG, the average team grabbed 43.7 boards per game. By comparison, the year that Wilt grabbed 27.2 RPG (his best) the average team grabbed 73.3 RPG.

How many more boards would Rodman have averaged if there were an extra 59 rebounds available every game? That year he grabbed 26.2% of the available rebounds when he was on the court, so if he continued that pace he would have added an extra 12.9 RPG to his total, putting him at 31.8 RPG. Being that he was getting his boards again bigger/stronger/faster opponents as well, I think you can make a good argument that Rodman is the greatest rebounder ever over Chamberlain.

And while he was no Wilt as an overall player, Rodman was a two-time DPOY and an excellent passer. Even until this day Tex Winter & Phil Jackson say that he picked the triangle offense quicker than any other player they ever coached. He was a brilliant player, it's just that since he didn't score people thought he was a one-trick pony. He was more than that, IMO.
  • BobS
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,324
If you want to throw in "what ifs" when Wilt played there was no 3 point line, so players played closer to the basket. There was a lot more people in the area rebounds are normally grabbed. With people chucking up 3's rebounds are easier to get in the painted area.
  • 4ML
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 26,738
Originally posted by jrg:
I can't believe Juwan Howard is still playing. Lol

Seriously...he should be in HOF of bandwagons.
  • AmpLee
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 16,021
Originally posted by BobS:
If you want to throw in "what ifs" when Wilt played there was no 3 point line, so players played closer to the basket. There was a lot more people in the area rebounds are normally grabbed. With people chucking up 3's rebounds are easier to get in the painted area.

Wow, you're reaching. If anything, the three pointer is the hardest shot to rebound in the paint. Just accept your pwnage and move along.
  • BobS
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,324
Originally posted by AmpLee:
Originally posted by BobS:
If you want to throw in "what ifs" when Wilt played there was no 3 point line, so players played closer to the basket. There was a lot more people in the area rebounds are normally grabbed. With people chucking up 3's rebounds are easier to get in the painted area.

Wow, you're reaching. If anything, the three pointer is the hardest shot to rebound in the paint. Just accept your pwnage and move along.

What I meant is the 3pt line creates more spacing in the post 1980 game, so the paint (where the highest percentage of rebounds drop) is less crowded. Someone camping out under the basket can get easier boards now as compared to pre 1980. I do agree 3 pt misses are hard to rebound, those are the ones the smaller quick guys usually get. I see a lot of easy defensive rebounds when the offense spreads the court, those didn't happen too often before 3 pointers were allowed.
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Tman:
Now this was a big 3


I was thinking the other day that that team had arguably 4 guys on that team where you could say he was the greatest _____ ever.

(arguably)

Jordan was the greatest player ever.
Pippen was the greatest perimeter defender ever.
Rodman was the greatest rebounder ever.
Kerr was the greatest spot up shooter ever.

I guess you never heard of a guy named Wilt Chamberlain?

Tough to compare. Wilt played in an unathletic and short league that averaged 119 PPG while only shooting 41-42% from the field for most of his career.

How do you average 119 PPG while shooting 41%? By shooting a TON of shots. There were way, way more possessions in Wilt's era than there are now.

The average team in 1961 got 5,789 rebounds in a 79 game season. In 1991, the average team got 3,547. It's easy to outrebound a guy when there are 63% more available rebounds.

They shot all the fouls. What would now be ball out of bounds with :14 on the shot clock was 1 + 1 (make the first get a second). In the penalty a non shooting foul was 2 shots, like it is now. In the penalty a shooting foul was 3 to make 2. So even though there was no 3pt line, a lot of scoring was done with the clock stopped.
Wilt averaged 22.9 rebounds a game for a career while averaging 30.1 points. If he was like Rodman and just concentrated on rebounding he would have probably averaged 30 a game.

The foul rules are part of what created extra possessions (about 10 extra FTs per game) but they also took a lot more Field Goal Attempts (over 18 more per game. A lot of extra rebounds were created as a result.

The year Rodman averaged 18.7 RPG, the average team grabbed 43.7 boards per game. By comparison, the year that Wilt grabbed 27.2 RPG (his best) the average team grabbed 73.3 RPG.

How many more boards would Rodman have averaged if there were an extra 59 rebounds available every game? That year he grabbed 26.2% of the available rebounds when he was on the court, so if he continued that pace he would have added an extra 12.9 RPG to his total, putting him at 31.8 RPG. Being that he was getting his boards again bigger/stronger/faster opponents as well, I think you can make a good argument that Rodman is the greatest rebounder ever over Chamberlain.

And while he was no Wilt as an overall player, Rodman was a two-time DPOY and an excellent passer. Even until this day Tex Winter & Phil Jackson say that he picked the triangle offense quicker than any other player they ever coached. He was a brilliant player, it's just that since he didn't score people thought he was a one-trick pony. He was more than that, IMO.

Do the FG attempts today include 3-point attempts? If not then 1991 year only shot 10 less attempts per game than 61-62.

There's many things here that stats don't represent, as always:

1. 61-62: the game was played near or around the key, which results in more crowded space due to less players spacing behind a 3-point line. This causes less open shots and lower percentage with more "tips" or and quickly throwing it towards the basket. Current basketball players grab and "reset" the play which uses more clock.

2. Rodman's type of defense allowed him to seal off more effectively for the rebounds: He wasn't a shot-blocker which means his primary defense was his quickness and staying in front of the scorer and he could easily turn and seal off for the rebound. Wilt was also a shot blocker and a scorer and that would cause any player to not be in primary rebound position. Ben Wallace was also a shot blocker and if he didn't focus on blocking shots, he would have been in much better position to get more rebounds.


Stats are all hunky dory but everyone who has seen both play knows who will get more rebounds. You put Shaq against Rodman in their prime and tell Shaq to primarily focus on keeping himself between the defender and the basket and he would dominate on the rebounds and defense.

Dennis Rodman is only considered a top level rebounder because that's all he focused on.

Also factor in that he wasn't the scorer getting the primary attention and he was playing with others who were being doubled allowing a lot of clean-up opportunities. Everyone and their momma were probably trying to box Wilt out.
[ Edited by Joecool on May 12, 2011 at 12:15 PM ]
All NBA teams...

1st Team

G: Derrick Rose
G: Kobe Bryant
F: Kevin Durant
F: LeBron James
C: Dwight Howard

2nd Team

G: Dwyane Wade
G: Russell Westbrook
F: Dirk Nowitzki
F: Pau Gasol
C: Amare Stoudemire

3rd Team

G: Manu Ginobili
G: Chris Paul
F: LaMarcus Aldridge
F: Zach Randolph
C: Al Horford
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
All NBA teams...

1st Team

G: Derrick Rose
G: Kobe Bryant
F: Kevin Durant
F: LeBron James
C: Dwight Howard

2nd Team

G: Dwyane Wade
G: Russell Westbrook
F: Dirk Nowitzki
F: Pau Gasol
C: Amare Stoudemire

3rd Team

G: Manu Ginobili
G: Chris Paul
F: LaMarcus Aldridge
F: Zach Randolph
C: Al Horford

no real complaints here
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Tman:
Now this was a big 3


I was thinking the other day that that team had arguably 4 guys on that team where you could say he was the greatest _____ ever.

(arguably)

Jordan was the greatest player ever.
Pippen was the greatest perimeter defender ever.
Rodman was the greatest rebounder ever.
Kerr was the greatest spot up shooter ever.

I guess you never heard of a guy named Wilt Chamberlain?

Tough to compare. Wilt played in an unathletic and short league that averaged 119 PPG while only shooting 41-42% from the field for most of his career.

How do you average 119 PPG while shooting 41%? By shooting a TON of shots. There were way, way more possessions in Wilt's era than there are now.

The average team in 1961 got 5,789 rebounds in a 79 game season. In 1991, the average team got 3,547. It's easy to outrebound a guy when there are 63% more available rebounds.

They shot all the fouls. What would now be ball out of bounds with :14 on the shot clock was 1 + 1 (make the first get a second). In the penalty a non shooting foul was 2 shots, like it is now. In the penalty a shooting foul was 3 to make 2. So even though there was no 3pt line, a lot of scoring was done with the clock stopped.
Wilt averaged 22.9 rebounds a game for a career while averaging 30.1 points. If he was like Rodman and just concentrated on rebounding he would have probably averaged 30 a game.

The foul rules are part of what created extra possessions (about 10 extra FTs per game) but they also took a lot more Field Goal Attempts (over 18 more per game. A lot of extra rebounds were created as a result.

The year Rodman averaged 18.7 RPG, the average team grabbed 43.7 boards per game. By comparison, the year that Wilt grabbed 27.2 RPG (his best) the average team grabbed 73.3 RPG.

How many more boards would Rodman have averaged if there were an extra 59 rebounds available every game? That year he grabbed 26.2% of the available rebounds when he was on the court, so if he continued that pace he would have added an extra 12.9 RPG to his total, putting him at 31.8 RPG. Being that he was getting his boards again bigger/stronger/faster opponents as well, I think you can make a good argument that Rodman is the greatest rebounder ever over Chamberlain.

And while he was no Wilt as an overall player, Rodman was a two-time DPOY and an excellent passer. Even until this day Tex Winter & Phil Jackson say that he picked the triangle offense quicker than any other player they ever coached. He was a brilliant player, it's just that since he didn't score people thought he was a one-trick pony. He was more than that, IMO.

Do the FG attempts today include 3-point attempts? If not then 1991 year only shot 10 less attempts per game than 61-62.

There's many things here that stats don't represent, as always:

1. 61-62: the game was played near or around the key, which results in more crowded space due to less players spacing behind a 3-point line. This causes less open shots and lower percentage with more "tips" or and quickly throwing it towards the basket. Current basketball players grab and "reset" the play which uses more clock.

2. Rodman's type of defense allowed him to seal off more effectively for the rebounds: He wasn't a shot-blocker which means his primary defense was his quickness and staying in front of the scorer and he could easily turn and seal off for the rebound. Wilt was also a shot blocker and a scorer and that would cause any player to not be in primary rebound position. Ben Wallace was also a shot blocker and if he didn't focus on blocking shots, he would have been in much better position to get more rebounds.


Stats are all hunky dory but everyone who has seen both play knows who will get more rebounds. You put Shaq against Rodman in their prime and tell Shaq to primarily focus on keeping himself between the defender and the basket and he would dominate on the rebounds and defense.

Dennis Rodman is only considered a top level rebounder because that's all he focused on.

Also factor in that he wasn't the scorer getting the primary attention and he was playing with others who were being doubled allowing a lot of clean-up opportunities. Everyone and their momma were probably trying to box Wilt out.

So he's not the best rebounder because that's all he focused on? So if a guy focuses on one aspect (say perimeter defense) and becomes the best at it, he's not the best, because someone else could have been better had they focused on it?

That Jordan was pretty good at basketball, but if Pele had played basketball, he would have been the best, so Jordan is second best and imaginary potential is the best.

Ya know who would win in a rebounding competition between Rodman and Shaq? Rodman, because he focused on it and studied it. He's the best rebounder ever. Period. He has the top 7 seasons in total rebound %. Top 7.
  • BobS
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,324
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
All NBA teams...

1st Team

G: Derrick Rose
G: Kobe Bryant
F: Kevin Durant
F: LeBron James
C: Dwight Howard

2nd Team

G: Dwyane Wade
G: Russell Westbrook
F: Dirk Nowitzki
F: Pau Gasol
C: Amare Stoudemire

3rd Team

G: Manu Ginobili
G: Chris Paul
F: LaMarcus Aldridge
F: Zach Randolph
C: Al Horford

I would swap those two. Father time has dropped Bryant down a notch, only a Laker fan would dispute this.
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
All NBA teams...

1st Team

G: Derrick Rose
G: Kobe Bryant
F: Kevin Durant
F: LeBron James
C: Dwight Howard

2nd Team

G: Dwyane Wade
G: Russell Westbrook
F: Dirk Nowitzki
F: Pau Gasol
C: Amare Stoudemire

3rd Team

G: Manu Ginobili
G: Chris Paul
F: LaMarcus Aldridge
F: Zach Randolph
C: Al Horford

I would swap those two. Father time has dropped Bryant down a notch, only a Laker fan would dispute this.

Obviously not, since sportswriters from around the country voted for Bryant ahead of Wade. I wouldn't have had a problem with Wade ahead of Kobe, but I don't know where you people come up with this "only a Laker fan" crap. It's self-evident that this isn't true.

And FWIW...Kobe was still the leading scorer in the league this year on a per minute basis. It's just that Phil only played him 34 MPG instead of the 38-40 that other players were getting.
  • AmpLee
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 16,021
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
All NBA teams...

1st Team

G: Derrick Rose
G: Kobe Bryant
F: Kevin Durant
F: LeBron James
C: Dwight Howard

2nd Team

G: Dwyane Wade
G: Russell Westbrook
F: Dirk Nowitzki
F: Pau Gasol
C: Amare Stoudemire

3rd Team

G: Manu Ginobili
G: Chris Paul
F: LaMarcus Aldridge
F: Zach Randolph
C: Al Horford

I would swap those two. Father time has dropped Bryant down a notch, only a Laker fan would dispute this.

Here we go again with this "Laker fan" s**t. Pot meet kettle, hater.
Originally posted by pantstickle:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by BobS:
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by Tman:
Now this was a big 3


I was thinking the other day that that team had arguably 4 guys on that team where you could say he was the greatest _____ ever.

(arguably)

Jordan was the greatest player ever.
Pippen was the greatest perimeter defender ever.
Rodman was the greatest rebounder ever.
Kerr was the greatest spot up shooter ever.

I guess you never heard of a guy named Wilt Chamberlain?

Tough to compare. Wilt played in an unathletic and short league that averaged 119 PPG while only shooting 41-42% from the field for most of his career.

How do you average 119 PPG while shooting 41%? By shooting a TON of shots. There were way, way more possessions in Wilt's era than there are now.

The average team in 1961 got 5,789 rebounds in a 79 game season. In 1991, the average team got 3,547. It's easy to outrebound a guy when there are 63% more available rebounds.

They shot all the fouls. What would now be ball out of bounds with :14 on the shot clock was 1 + 1 (make the first get a second). In the penalty a non shooting foul was 2 shots, like it is now. In the penalty a shooting foul was 3 to make 2. So even though there was no 3pt line, a lot of scoring was done with the clock stopped.
Wilt averaged 22.9 rebounds a game for a career while averaging 30.1 points. If he was like Rodman and just concentrated on rebounding he would have probably averaged 30 a game.

The foul rules are part of what created extra possessions (about 10 extra FTs per game) but they also took a lot more Field Goal Attempts (over 18 more per game. A lot of extra rebounds were created as a result.

The year Rodman averaged 18.7 RPG, the average team grabbed 43.7 boards per game. By comparison, the year that Wilt grabbed 27.2 RPG (his best) the average team grabbed 73.3 RPG.

How many more boards would Rodman have averaged if there were an extra 59 rebounds available every game? That year he grabbed 26.2% of the available rebounds when he was on the court, so if he continued that pace he would have added an extra 12.9 RPG to his total, putting him at 31.8 RPG. Being that he was getting his boards again bigger/stronger/faster opponents as well, I think you can make a good argument that Rodman is the greatest rebounder ever over Chamberlain.

And while he was no Wilt as an overall player, Rodman was a two-time DPOY and an excellent passer. Even until this day Tex Winter & Phil Jackson say that he picked the triangle offense quicker than any other player they ever coached. He was a brilliant player, it's just that since he didn't score people thought he was a one-trick pony. He was more than that, IMO.

Do the FG attempts today include 3-point attempts? If not then 1991 year only shot 10 less attempts per game than 61-62.

There's many things here that stats don't represent, as always:

1. 61-62: the game was played near or around the key, which results in more crowded space due to less players spacing behind a 3-point line. This causes less open shots and lower percentage with more "tips" or and quickly throwing it towards the basket. Current basketball players grab and "reset" the play which uses more clock.

2. Rodman's type of defense allowed him to seal off more effectively for the rebounds: He wasn't a shot-blocker which means his primary defense was his quickness and staying in front of the scorer and he could easily turn and seal off for the rebound. Wilt was also a shot blocker and a scorer and that would cause any player to not be in primary rebound position. Ben Wallace was also a shot blocker and if he didn't focus on blocking shots, he would have been in much better position to get more rebounds.


Stats are all hunky dory but everyone who has seen both play knows who will get more rebounds. You put Shaq against Rodman in their prime and tell Shaq to primarily focus on keeping himself between the defender and the basket and he would dominate on the rebounds and defense.

Dennis Rodman is only considered a top level rebounder because that's all he focused on.

Also factor in that he wasn't the scorer getting the primary attention and he was playing with others who were being doubled allowing a lot of clean-up opportunities. Everyone and their momma were probably trying to box Wilt out.

So he's not the best rebounder because that's all he focused on? So if a guy focuses on one aspect (say perimeter defense) and becomes the best at it, he's not the best, because someone else could have been better had they focused on it?

That Jordan was pretty good at basketball, but if Pele had played basketball, he would have been the best, so Jordan is second best and imaginary potential is the best.

Ya know who would win in a rebounding competition between Rodman and Shaq? Rodman, because he focused on it and studied it. He's the best rebounder ever. Period. He has the top 7 seasons in total rebound %. Top 7.

I only brought up "if's" because that was brought into the original argument with shot attempts...

He was not the best, Wilt was. You can argue percentages but what I'm saying is that each one had to deal with or not deal with other variables during a game that affected their ability to rebound. If Rodman made attempts to block shots as did Ben Wallace or Wilt, then his rebounding percentage would be lower because trying to block a shot would put him out of position to rebound.

Some could argue that Kobe could be one of the best 3-point shooters in the game if that's all he had to focus on or Wilt or Shaq could easily be more dominating rebounders if their team didn't rely on them to focus on other things. This is why it's easy to say he was the best rebounder from his numbers alone but there are many other variables that kept other players from doing the same.

Rodman's team solely relied on him rebounding the ball and staying in front of his man. Wilt's, Shaq's, Robinson's, Duncan's, Wallace's, and many other in the paint players teams relied heavily on those guys doing more things than only rebounding.

To say Rodman was the greatest rebounder on rebound percentages does not prove that if you put him next to those other guys, then Rodman would out rebound them if their primary focus would be to outrebound him.

I'm just saying, there's more variables at play here than numbers.
[ Edited by Joecool on May 12, 2011 at 1:10 PM ]
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