Malone, Pippen elected to Hall

Originally posted by Negrodamus:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Negrodamus:

Originally posted by silkyjohnson:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Negrodamus:

That's a kick ass video right there. He guards every position on the court, and shows how good he was at every aspect of defense. Full court pressure, beating his man to the spot, fronting, shooting the passing lanes, weak side shot blocking, taking charges...everything.

That was beautiful!

the best Scottie Pippen videos hands down. I was so pumped last night watching all 5 of those vids.

i got a boner watching those

Don't let him fool you, 'Damus. He had that boner long before clicking "play". All he really did is maintain it while watching Pip on D....




not that there's anything wrong with that.

Originally posted by dobophile:

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:
I think you could argue Grant Hill in his prime was right there too. Too bad he had those string of injuries.

That's the thing. Grant Hill is in a similar class of player. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

If only Scottie Pippen had been "the man" on a decent team throughout the 90s . . .

If only Grant Hill would have remained healthy throughout his career . . .

If only . . .

I'd also like to throw in Marko Jaric for his innate ability to nail down Adriana Lima. I mean, come on. Look at him. Look at her. It took some rare skills to pull this off.



[ Edited by TheSixthRing on Apr 8, 2010 at 13:08:06 ]

Originally posted by dobophile:
See, thinking of Pippen as the 5th best wing of all time is what I'm talking about. No way he's ahead of Drexler and Wade. And I think it's a tossup with guys like Miller and (homer alert) Ginobili. And that's only an off-the-top-of-my-head list of players I've watched after age 10. I bet I could think of more.

What about guys before my time, like Dr. J, Hondo, West, Barry, etc.?

To my recollection, Pippen was rarely double-teamed and typically never drew the other team's best perimeter defender. Jordan did. So Pippen had more room to operate and more opportunities to create.

On defense, though, Pippen was spectacular. One of the most ridiculous absurdities of the Cult of Jordan has been his defensive reputation. The truth is, Jordan benefited tremendously from Pippen on the defensive end. Pippen probably deserved more recognition for that.

Pippen did reasonably well leading the Bulls for one season, though I'm not so sure they could have beaten the Pacers and the Rockets in the playoffs. He screwed the pooch in Houston when he had Barkley and Olajuwon. I remember worrying about that team, and being surprised at their failure in the playoffs. I'm not going to mention the Blazers.

Pippen was great, but I never thought he deserved to be on the Dream Team (he'd had, like, one good season at that point) or on the top 50 all-time team. If Scottie Pippen was ever underrated, it was immediately after Jordan's first retirement; but now he's overrated by most. Just one fan's opinion, I guess.

OK, I was kidding about Ginobili, but I thought of another wing better than Pippen: 'Nique.

My opinion about the guys that you mentioned in comparison with Pippen.

Drexler - I actually think that on the offensive end they were pretty similar players, but Clyde was the #1 option. Both were extremely athletic slashers that had excellent court vision and handles, and dissected teams with it, but weren't great outside shooters. Clyde was better at getting to the hoop, but Pippen was still good. However, Clyde was a bad defender. I feel pretty strongly that Pippen was a better player.

Wade - He was the name I considered throwing in front of Pippen when I listed those guys. Since he's only 7 years into his career, I gave Pippen the nod. Wade's a better distributor and slasher, and a similar help defender. Pippen blows him away in terms of man defense, but Wade has the decided advantage over Pippen on the offensive end. I have no problem if someone put Wade ahead of Pippen.

Manu - I actually don't think it's as homerific as you suggest. He never gets his just due. That being said, I think that Popovich describes him perfectly when he says that he does all the things that the Jordan's, Kobe's, & LeBron's can do, it's just that he doesn't have their athleticism, which does count for something. There are no "easy" buckets with Manu for that reason. I do think Pippen's a superior player, but not by a whole lot. I'd take Manu before I'd take Drexler.

Dr. J - I have no problem with putting him ahead of Pippen either, I think it's just a matter of preference. Erving REALLY dominated in the ABA, but in the NBA he was great, but not as dominant. Defensively...meh. I gravitate toward defensive players, so I prefer Pippen. I think that him, Wade, & Pippen are in the same tier.

West, Hondo, Barry - See Manu.

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:

Originally posted by dobophile:

Originally posted by TheSixthRing:
I think you could argue Grant Hill in his prime was right there too. Too bad he had those string of injuries.

That's the thing. Grant Hill is in a similar class of player. Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

If only Scottie Pippen had been "the man" on a decent team throughout the 90s . . .

If only Grant Hill would have remained healthy throughout his career . . .

If only . . .

I'd also like to throw in Marko Jaric for his innate ability to nail down Adriana Lima. I mean, come on. Look at him. Look at her. It took some rare skills to pull this off.

You cant be serious!

^They're freaking MARRIED. He allegedly got to pop that cherry.

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by crzy:

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Let me just say that Karl Malone being in the most unmarketable franchise in the NBA might have something to do with him not making the Finals more.

That's BS. Marketability has nothing to do with it.

IN the NBA, the best teams win. Period.

Malone didn't make the Finals more because he's the most overrated player in NBA history.

And if anything it was the Jazz who made the Finals in a watered down league. The Jazz only made the Finals when Malone and Stockton were in their mid 30s after the Sonics imploded, Hakeem was washed up, Barkley was finished, Shaq wasn't yet Shaq and Duncan was a rookie.

When Stockton and Malone were in their prime, the Jazz routinely got their ass kicked by real teams.

Far from bs. Ronny Seikaly turned down an offer to play for a ring simply because of the state of Utah. That doesn't happen anywhere else.

After Horny, Malone, and Stockton the Jazz had nothing. No depth at all. Bryon Russell was our best defender. Do I have to say anymore. That's the guy guarding the best player to ever play the game. I guy who barely saw a game after he left Utah. Tell me a solid role player that went to Utah during that run. Crickets. That's what I thought.

BTW Let's see here Charles Barkley went to 1 Final, Kemp went to 1 Final, Patrick Ewing went to 1 Final, and Hakeem only won a couple championships because MJ wasn't there. If you at the track record of the 90's there was Jordan and then there was 2nd tier guys who occasionally showed up to get their @sses handed to them.

Not true, they had only one horrible year....the year when Boozer and Okur got there, they had a ton of injuries. After Stockton and Malone left, the Jazz were still playoff contenders, and no Russell wasnt there best defender, it was AK47.

Originally posted by ninerlifer:

Originally posted by tjd808185:

Originally posted by crzy:

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Let me just say that Karl Malone being in the most unmarketable franchise in the NBA might have something to do with him not making the Finals more.

That's BS. Marketability has nothing to do with it.

IN the NBA, the best teams win. Period.

Malone didn't make the Finals more because he's the most overrated player in NBA history.

And if anything it was the Jazz who made the Finals in a watered down league. The Jazz only made the Finals when Malone and Stockton were in their mid 30s after the Sonics imploded, Hakeem was washed up, Barkley was finished, Shaq wasn't yet Shaq and Duncan was a rookie.

When Stockton and Malone were in their prime, the Jazz routinely got their ass kicked by real teams.

Far from bs. Ronny Seikaly turned down an offer to play for a ring simply because of the state of Utah. That doesn't happen anywhere else.

After Horny, Malone, and Stockton the Jazz had nothing. No depth at all. Bryon Russell was our best defender. Do I have to say anymore. That's the guy guarding the best player to ever play the game. I guy who barely saw a game after he left Utah. Tell me a solid role player that went to Utah during that run. Crickets. That's what I thought.

BTW Let's see here Charles Barkley went to 1 Final, Kemp went to 1 Final, Patrick Ewing went to 1 Final, and Hakeem only won a couple championships because MJ wasn't there. If you at the track record of the 90's there was Jordan and then there was 2nd tier guys who occasionally showed up to get their @sses handed to them.

Not true, they had only one horrible year....the year when Boozer and Okur got there, they had a ton of injuries. After Stockton and Malone left, the Jazz were still playoff contenders, and no Russell wasnt there best defender, it was AK47.

What timeframe are you talking about? He's talking about the late 90s when the Jazz made it to the finals not the early 2000s when Andrei got there while Stockton and Malone were on their way out.

Anyone who doesn't think marketability didn't play a role in better players coming to Utah doesn't know wtf they're talking about. A lot of good black players avoided going to Utah at all cost since its always been seem as a a pure white state and I'm sure the Mormon influence played a part in it as well. Things may have changed slightly with Booze and Deron going there but back in the 90s no good black free agents wanted to go there. If some had I'm sure Utah would have a ring right now.

[ Edited by NinerFanMT on Apr 8, 2010 at 14:47:16 ]

Originally posted by dobophile:
See, thinking of Pippen as the 5th best wing of all time is what I'm talking about. No way he's ahead of Drexler and Wade. And I think it's a tossup with guys like Miller and (homer alert) Ginobili. And that's only an off-the-top-of-my-head list of players I've watched after age 10. I bet I could think of more.

What about guys before my time, like Dr. J, Hondo, West, Barry, etc.?

To my recollection, Pippen was rarely double-teamed and typically never drew the other team's best perimeter defender. Jordan did. So Pippen had more room to operate and more opportunities to create.

On defense, though, Pippen was spectacular. One of the most ridiculous absurdities of the Cult of Jordan has been his defensive reputation. The truth is, Jordan benefited tremendously from Pippen on the defensive end. Pippen probably deserved more recognition for that.

Pippen did reasonably well leading the Bulls for one season, though I'm not so sure they could have beaten the Pacers and the Rockets in the playoffs. He screwed the pooch in Houston when he had Barkley and Olajuwon. I remember worrying about that team, and being surprised at their failure in the playoffs. I'm not going to mention the Blazers.

Pippen was great, but I never thought he deserved to be on the Dream Team (he'd had, like, one good season at that point) or on the top 50 all-time team. If Scottie Pippen was ever underrated, it was immediately after Jordan's first retirement; but now he's overrated by most. Just one fan's opinion, I guess.

OK, I was kidding about Ginobili, but I thought of another wing better than Pippen: 'Nique.

lol no

THe guys dobophile mentioned who might be considered better than Pippen are Hondo, West, Barry, Dr J

lol at Drexler and Nique, both vastly overrated players.



Let Wade finish his career first. I thought for sure in 2006 that he would dominate the NBA for years. Four years later, I'm a bit disappointed.

Originally posted by dobophile:

Originally posted by crzy:
THe guys dobophile mentioned who might be considered better than Pippen are Hondo, West, Barry, Dr J

lol at Drexler and Nique, both vastly overrated players.



Let Wade finish his career first. I thought for sure in 2006 that he would dominate the NBA for years. Four years later, I'm a bit disappointed.

Elgin Baylor? James Worthy? Adrian Dantley?

I forgot about Baylor. He's a yes, the other two are definite no's, IMO.

Originally posted by dobophile:

Originally posted by crzy:
THe guys dobophile mentioned who might be considered better than Pippen are Hondo, West, Barry, Dr J

lol at Drexler and Nique, both vastly overrated players.



Let Wade finish his career first. I thought for sure in 2006 that he would dominate the NBA for years. Four years later, I'm a bit disappointed.

Elgin Baylor? James Worthy? Adrian Dantley?

Baylor definitely.

Worthy no.

Dantley hell no.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by crzy:

Originally posted by Niners99:
and the best PF in NBA history

Karl Malone accomplished absolutely nothing in his prime.

Only when Barkley, Hakeem were way past their primes, and the Kemp Sonics imploded did the Jazz make the Finals.

One of the most overrated players in NBA history.

this

all time leading scorers:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 38,387
2. Karl Malone - 36,928
3. Michael Jordan - 32,292
4. Wilt Chamberlain - 31,419
5. Shaquille O'Neal - 28,255



34. Tim Duncan - 20,330

Malone is also 1st in NBA history in free throws attempted and made, as well as 1st in defensive rebounds.

i watched Malone play alot more than most other people. he was that good, and he was the best PF ever. people have the same bias against Malone that they do with Barry Bonds. you dont like Malone, you think hes an ass, and a crappy person, so you laugh off the notion that the NBA's 2nd all time leading scorer might be the best to play his position.

basketball is a team sport. Malone not winning any titles shouldnt detract from how hes remembered as a player. he was an MVP caliber force that could dominate the paint, and stick a fade jumper in your face on the perimeter.

That's a terrible argument. Karl Malone played for 19 seasons, which is why he's #2 all time on the list. It's a testament to his longevity. He was a slightly better scorer than Duncan, but Duncan was a better rebounder and a MUCH, MUCH better defender.

You say that he ran into the "Jordan buzzsaw", but the truth is...he only got out of the West twice in his 18 years in Utah, despite having arguably the 2nd best PG of all time feeding him the ball. That has nothing to do with the Bulls. By contrast, Duncan's lead his team to 4 titles despite having to face the Kobe/Shaq Lakers for years.

Duncan was the better player, and it isn't really all that close.

a slightly better scorer eh? how about Duncan would have to nearly DOUBLE his current total of career pts in the next 6 seasons to catch Malone. 37,000 pts in 19 years > 20,000 pts in 13 years.

better rebounder? really? if duncan continues at his current career pace, hed be at 16,000 rebounds in 19 seasons compared to Malones 15,000 rebounds in 19 seasons. lets see if he lasts 6 more years first. you said "better rebounder" so confidently for someone who didnt look up the stats first. so IF he keeps up his career pace for 6 more years, he will be "slightly" better than Malone at rebounds.

Malone may have not been as good of a defender as Duncan, but he still was on 3 NBA all-defensive 1st teams and 1 second team.

Malone has a better career FG%, higher career MVP award shares, a better free throw shooter (74% career vs duncans 68%), he ranks 43rd all time in assists, despite being a PF, was a better passer, 10th all time in steals, again duncan nowhere to be found.

Duncan winning the rings is the only reason why you are high on him over Malone. and winning an NBA championship is a team effort. you think Duncan is solely responsible for any Spurs championship? heck no.

is Ben Roethlisberger a better QB than Dan Marino because he quarterbacked his team to more championships? Duncan is very good. 2nd best. but Malone was just too dominant for too long in too many different areas to not be number 1. he was an elite caliber scorer, rebounder, passer, and his assists and steals abilities for his position were incredible. he was also a very good defender as well as free throw shooter.

You're using aggregate numbers, which is merely a reflection of longevity, as pants said.

Scoring? Malone entered the league when the average team was scoring 110ppg. By contrast, Duncan entered in a "dead ball" era, where the league was scoring 95.6ppg, and played most of his career in that. He played on a team that played at a much slower pace than the Stockton/Malone Jazz teams did, and Duncan never had a point guard of Stockton's talent level giving him easy buckets. Parker is very good, but is much more of a scorer than a distributor. Malone was the beneficiary of many baskets that Stockton created for him.

Malone ran the court better than Duncan, and was better on the pick and roll. They were about even in terms of face up jump shots. In the half court aspects of offense (which suspiciously coincide with teams that generally win championships)...Duncan had superior footwork, was better at scoring with either hand, reading double teams, and putbacks on the offensive boards.

Defensively, which is where it's most important, it's not even close. Duncan was a shot-blocking, shot-changing presence that Malone never was. He controlled games on the defensive end. Malone didn't. Malone was superb at stripping players as they went up to shoot. Aside from that, he was an unremarkable defender.

On the boards...not even close. Duncan outrebounded Malone, despite playing on teams with a slower pace (which means fewer shots, and fewer misses to rebound). In Malone's best year, he grabbed 17.4% of the available rebounds when he was on the court.

That same number would be the second worst year of Duncan's career.

Your point about supporting casts is funny, because Malone had the 2nd best PG of all time, a top notch perimeter defender (Russell), a top notch interior defender (Ostertag), a catch & shoot guy (Hornacek), and an excellent bench (Eisley, Anderson, Carr, etc).

IMO, Malone isn't even the 2nd best PF ever, that honor goes to Garnett.

i was using averages, not totals. we already established that malone played longer.

and its funny how you keep mentioning these 7 ft+ centers that played PF out of need. Duncan wouldve played Center if Robinson hadnt been there for the first part of his career, and Garnett lists himself at 6'11 because he doesnt want to play C, but hes really 7'1.

either way, i watched Malone play on a regular basis, and ive seen Duncan and Garnetts careers from the beginning. from an individual standpoint, Malone was the best of the 3. Duncan and KG won rings, so they did something Malone didnt, but when it comes to just being a force at PF, id put Malone on my all time team at PF.

but like i said, i dont expect you guys to give Malone much credit, because his jerkoff personality spoils unbiased opinions. i watched the guy play on a regular basis, and there was nothing overrated about him. he could do it all, and do it well. give me the guy who came down with rebounds elbows flying. if were picking a guy to go on a mission trip with, Duncan is the guy. if were going to war? give me Malone. he only missed like 4 games ever, and they were suspensions for being too physical.

anyways, it doesnt really matter does it? you have your opinions, i have mine.

Yeah, but you'll lose your war when your warrior chokes. Me?

Champion.

And you only used career totals except for FG% and FT%.

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by crzy:

Originally posted by Niners99:
and the best PF in NBA history

Karl Malone accomplished absolutely nothing in his prime.

Only when Barkley, Hakeem were way past their primes, and the Kemp Sonics imploded did the Jazz make the Finals.

One of the most overrated players in NBA history.

this

all time leading scorers:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 38,387
2. Karl Malone - 36,928
3. Michael Jordan - 32,292
4. Wilt Chamberlain - 31,419
5. Shaquille O'Neal - 28,255



34. Tim Duncan - 20,330

Malone is also 1st in NBA history in free throws attempted and made, as well as 1st in defensive rebounds.

i watched Malone play alot more than most other people. he was that good, and he was the best PF ever. people have the same bias against Malone that they do with Barry Bonds. you dont like Malone, you think hes an ass, and a crappy person, so you laugh off the notion that the NBA's 2nd all time leading scorer might be the best to play his position.

basketball is a team sport. Malone not winning any titles shouldnt detract from how hes remembered as a player. he was an MVP caliber force that could dominate the paint, and stick a fade jumper in your face on the perimeter.

That's a terrible argument. Karl Malone played for 19 seasons, which is why he's #2 all time on the list. It's a testament to his longevity. He was a slightly better scorer than Duncan, but Duncan was a better rebounder and a MUCH, MUCH better defender.

You say that he ran into the "Jordan buzzsaw", but the truth is...he only got out of the West twice in his 18 years in Utah, despite having arguably the 2nd best PG of all time feeding him the ball. That has nothing to do with the Bulls. By contrast, Duncan's lead his team to 4 titles despite having to face the Kobe/Shaq Lakers for years.

Duncan was the better player, and it isn't really all that close.

a slightly better scorer eh? how about Duncan would have to nearly DOUBLE his current total of career pts in the next 6 seasons to catch Malone. 37,000 pts in 19 years > 20,000 pts in 13 years.

better rebounder? really? if duncan continues at his current career pace, hed be at 16,000 rebounds in 19 seasons compared to Malones 15,000 rebounds in 19 seasons. lets see if he lasts 6 more years first. you said "better rebounder" so confidently for someone who didnt look up the stats first. so IF he keeps up his career pace for 6 more years, he will be "slightly" better than Malone at rebounds.

Malone may have not been as good of a defender as Duncan, but he still was on 3 NBA all-defensive 1st teams and 1 second team.

Malone has a better career FG%, higher career MVP award shares, a better free throw shooter (74% career vs duncans 68%), he ranks 43rd all time in assists, despite being a PF, was a better passer, 10th all time in steals, again duncan nowhere to be found.

Duncan winning the rings is the only reason why you are high on him over Malone. and winning an NBA championship is a team effort. you think Duncan is solely responsible for any Spurs championship? heck no.

is Ben Roethlisberger a better QB than Dan Marino because he quarterbacked his team to more championships? Duncan is very good. 2nd best. but Malone was just too dominant for too long in too many different areas to not be number 1. he was an elite caliber scorer, rebounder, passer, and his assists and steals abilities for his position were incredible. he was also a very good defender as well as free throw shooter.

You're using aggregate numbers, which is merely a reflection of longevity, as pants said.

Scoring? Malone entered the league when the average team was scoring 110ppg. By contrast, Duncan entered in a "dead ball" era, where the league was scoring 95.6ppg, and played most of his career in that. He played on a team that played at a much slower pace than the Stockton/Malone Jazz teams did, and Duncan never had a point guard of Stockton's talent level giving him easy buckets. Parker is very good, but is much more of a scorer than a distributor. Malone was the beneficiary of many baskets that Stockton created for him.

Malone ran the court better than Duncan, and was better on the pick and roll. They were about even in terms of face up jump shots. In the half court aspects of offense (which suspiciously coincide with teams that generally win championships)...Duncan had superior footwork, was better at scoring with either hand, reading double teams, and putbacks on the offensive boards.

Defensively, which is where it's most important, it's not even close. Duncan was a shot-blocking, shot-changing presence that Malone never was. He controlled games on the defensive end. Malone didn't. Malone was superb at stripping players as they went up to shoot. Aside from that, he was an unremarkable defender.

On the boards...not even close. Duncan outrebounded Malone, despite playing on teams with a slower pace (which means fewer shots, and fewer misses to rebound). In Malone's best year, he grabbed 17.4% of the available rebounds when he was on the court.

That same number would be the second worst year of Duncan's career.

Your point about supporting casts is funny, because Malone had the 2nd best PG of all time, a top notch perimeter defender (Russell), a top notch interior defender (Ostertag), a catch & shoot guy (Hornacek), and an excellent bench (Eisley, Anderson, Carr, etc).

IMO, Malone isn't even the 2nd best PF ever, that honor goes to Garnett.

i was using averages, not totals. we already established that malone played longer.

and its funny how you keep mentioning these 7 ft+ centers that played PF out of need. Duncan wouldve played Center if Robinson hadnt been there for the first part of his career, and Garnett lists himself at 6'11 because he doesnt want to play C, but hes really 7'1.

either way, i watched Malone play on a regular basis, and ive seen Duncan and Garnetts careers from the beginning. from an individual standpoint, Malone was the best of the 3. Duncan and KG won rings, so they did something Malone didnt, but when it comes to just being a force at PF, id put Malone on my all time team at PF.

but like i said, i dont expect you guys to give Malone much credit, because his jerkoff personality spoils unbiased opinions. i watched the guy play on a regular basis, and there was nothing overrated about him. he could do it all, and do it well. give me the guy who came down with rebounds elbows flying. if were picking a guy to go on a mission trip with, Duncan is the guy. if were going to war? give me Malone. he only missed like 4 games ever, and they were suspensions for being too physical.

anyways, it doesnt really matter does it? you have your opinions, i have mine.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

Originally posted by pantstickle:
Yeah, but you'll lose your war when your warrior chokes. Me?

Champion.

And you only used career totals except for FG% and FT%.

Yeah, if I want championships, I go with Duncan. If I want to go hunting for little mexican girls, I'll take Malone.