Malone, Pippen elected to Hall

Originally posted by crzy:
That's not fair. Pippen was 35 in 2000.

Just the fact that the Blazers almost beat the Lakers says something to me.

OK. But still, you're taking an entire career where he served 2nd fiddle to Jordan and using it to define his legacy. Top 50 yes...........no doubt about it.

Originally posted by ZRF80:

Originally posted by crzy:
That's not fair. Pippen was 35 in 2000.

Just the fact that the Blazers almost beat the Lakers says something to me.

OK. But still, you're taking an entire career where he served 2nd fiddle to Jordan and using it to define his legacy. Top 50 yes...........no doubt about it.

Guess what. If you took any player in history, no matter how good they were, they would be second fiddle to Jordan. He's the greatest.

You can't use that to diminish Pippen's legacy. Pippen almost took a team without Jordan to the Finals.

There is a key difference between Karl Malone and Tim Duncan.

One player put up 21 points, 20 rebounds, 10 assists and eight blocked shots in a clinching NBA Finals game. Repeatedly coming through in the clutch and dominating when it most mattered.

The other folded over and over in the clutch.

There isn't anyone who watched Duncan and Malone both play who can argue that Malone was a better player.

Originally posted by silkyjohnson:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Negrodamus:

That's a kick ass video right there. He guards every position on the court, and shows how good he was at every aspect of defense. Full court pressure, beating his man to the spot, fronting, shooting the passing lanes, weak side shot blocking, taking charges...everything.

That was beautiful!

the best Scottie Pippen videos hands down. I was so pumped last night watching all 5 of those vids.

Let me just say that Karl Malone being in the most unmarketable franchise in the NBA might have something to do with him not making the Finals more.

How many times do you see a someone flat out refuse to go to a team that just made the Finals like Utah and Ron Seikaly?

As for Duncan he's better than Malone I give you that, but alot of rings came in a watered down NBA. That Cavs team and the Knicks were complete garbage. Utah would have mopped the floor with those garbage @ss teams.

[ Edited by tjd808185 on Apr 8, 2010 at 07:36:33 ]

Originally posted by Negrodamus:

Originally posted by silkyjohnson:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Negrodamus:

That's a kick ass video right there. He guards every position on the court, and shows how good he was at every aspect of defense. Full court pressure, beating his man to the spot, fronting, shooting the passing lanes, weak side shot blocking, taking charges...everything.

That was beautiful!

the best Scottie Pippen videos hands down. I was so pumped last night watching all 5 of those vids.

i got a boner watching those

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Let me just say that Karl Malone being in the most unmarketable franchise in the NBA might have something to do with him not making the Finals more.

That's BS. Marketability has nothing to do with it.

IN the NBA, the best teams win. Period.

Malone didn't make the Finals more because he's the most overrated player in NBA history.

And if anything it was the Jazz who made the Finals in a watered down league. The Jazz only made the Finals when Malone and Stockton were in their mid 30s after the Sonics imploded, Hakeem was washed up, Barkley was finished, Shaq wasn't yet Shaq and Duncan was a rookie.

When Stockton and Malone were in their prime, the Jazz routinely got their ass kicked by real teams.

[ Edited by crzy on Apr 8, 2010 at 08:05:55 ]

Just cuz the East was garbage post-Jordan, doesn't mean the West was a walk-thru. It wasn't.

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by crzy:

Originally posted by Niners99:
and the best PF in NBA history

Karl Malone accomplished absolutely nothing in his prime.

Only when Barkley, Hakeem were way past their primes, and the Kemp Sonics imploded did the Jazz make the Finals.

One of the most overrated players in NBA history.

this

all time leading scorers:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 38,387
2. Karl Malone - 36,928
3. Michael Jordan - 32,292
4. Wilt Chamberlain - 31,419
5. Shaquille O'Neal - 28,255



34. Tim Duncan - 20,330

Malone is also 1st in NBA history in free throws attempted and made, as well as 1st in defensive rebounds.

i watched Malone play alot more than most other people. he was that good, and he was the best PF ever. people have the same bias against Malone that they do with Barry Bonds. you dont like Malone, you think hes an ass, and a crappy person, so you laugh off the notion that the NBA's 2nd all time leading scorer might be the best to play his position.

basketball is a team sport. Malone not winning any titles shouldnt detract from how hes remembered as a player. he was an MVP caliber force that could dominate the paint, and stick a fade jumper in your face on the perimeter.

That's a terrible argument. Karl Malone played for 19 seasons, which is why he's #2 all time on the list. It's a testament to his longevity. He was a slightly better scorer than Duncan, but Duncan was a better rebounder and a MUCH, MUCH better defender.

You say that he ran into the "Jordan buzzsaw", but the truth is...he only got out of the West twice in his 18 years in Utah, despite having arguably the 2nd best PG of all time feeding him the ball. That has nothing to do with the Bulls. By contrast, Duncan's lead his team to 4 titles despite having to face the Kobe/Shaq Lakers for years.

Duncan was the better player, and it isn't really all that close.

a slightly better scorer eh? how about Duncan would have to nearly DOUBLE his current total of career pts in the next 6 seasons to catch Malone. 37,000 pts in 19 years > 20,000 pts in 13 years.

better rebounder? really? if duncan continues at his current career pace, hed be at 16,000 rebounds in 19 seasons compared to Malones 15,000 rebounds in 19 seasons. lets see if he lasts 6 more years first. you said "better rebounder" so confidently for someone who didnt look up the stats first. so IF he keeps up his career pace for 6 more years, he will be "slightly" better than Malone at rebounds.

Malone may have not been as good of a defender as Duncan, but he still was on 3 NBA all-defensive 1st teams and 1 second team.

Malone has a better career FG%, higher career MVP award shares, a better free throw shooter (74% career vs duncans 68%), he ranks 43rd all time in assists, despite being a PF, was a better passer, 10th all time in steals, again duncan nowhere to be found.

Duncan winning the rings is the only reason why you are high on him over Malone. and winning an NBA championship is a team effort. you think Duncan is solely responsible for any Spurs championship? heck no.

is Ben Roethlisberger a better QB than Dan Marino because he quarterbacked his team to more championships? Duncan is very good. 2nd best. but Malone was just too dominant for too long in too many different areas to not be number 1. he was an elite caliber scorer, rebounder, passer, and his assists and steals abilities for his position were incredible. he was also a very good defender as well as free throw shooter.

You're using aggregate numbers, which is merely a reflection of longevity, as pants said.

Scoring? Malone entered the league when the average team was scoring 110ppg. By contrast, Duncan entered in a "dead ball" era, where the league was scoring 95.6ppg, and played most of his career in that. He played on a team that played at a much slower pace than the Stockton/Malone Jazz teams did, and Duncan never had a point guard of Stockton's talent level giving him easy buckets. Parker is very good, but is much more of a scorer than a distributor. Malone was the beneficiary of many baskets that Stockton created for him.

Malone ran the court better than Duncan, and was better on the pick and roll. They were about even in terms of face up jump shots. In the half court aspects of offense (which suspiciously coincide with teams that generally win championships)...Duncan had superior footwork, was better at scoring with either hand, reading double teams, and putbacks on the offensive boards.

Defensively, which is where it's most important, it's not even close. Duncan was a shot-blocking, shot-changing presence that Malone never was. He controlled games on the defensive end. Malone didn't. Malone was superb at stripping players as they went up to shoot. Aside from that, he was an unremarkable defender.

On the boards...not even close. Duncan outrebounded Malone, despite playing on teams with a slower pace (which means fewer shots, and fewer misses to rebound). In Malone's best year, he grabbed 17.4% of the available rebounds when he was on the court.

That same number would be the second worst year of Duncan's career.

Your point about supporting casts is funny, because Malone had the 2nd best PG of all time, a top notch perimeter defender (Russell), a top notch interior defender (Ostertag), a catch & shoot guy (Hornacek), and an excellent bench (Eisley, Anderson, Carr, etc).

IMO, Malone isn't even the 2nd best PF ever, that honor goes to Garnett.

this thread delivers

Originally posted by crzy:

Originally posted by tjd808185:
Let me just say that Karl Malone being in the most unmarketable franchise in the NBA might have something to do with him not making the Finals more.

That's BS. Marketability has nothing to do with it.

IN the NBA, the best teams win. Period.

Malone didn't make the Finals more because he's the most overrated player in NBA history.

And if anything it was the Jazz who made the Finals in a watered down league. The Jazz only made the Finals when Malone and Stockton were in their mid 30s after the Sonics imploded, Hakeem was washed up, Barkley was finished, Shaq wasn't yet Shaq and Duncan was a rookie.

When Stockton and Malone were in their prime, the Jazz routinely got their ass kicked by real teams.

Far from bs. Ronny Seikaly turned down an offer to play for a ring simply because of the state of Utah. That doesn't happen anywhere else.

After Horny, Malone, and Stockton the Jazz had nothing. No depth at all. Bryon Russell was our best defender. Do I have to say anymore. That's the guy guarding the best player to ever play the game. I guy who barely saw a game after he left Utah. Tell me a solid role player that went to Utah during that run. Crickets. That's what I thought.

BTW Let's see here Charles Barkley went to 1 Final, Kemp went to 1 Final, Patrick Ewing went to 1 Final, and Hakeem only won a couple championships because MJ wasn't there. If you at the track record of the 90's there was Jordan and then there was 2nd tier guys who occasionally showed up to get their @sses handed to them.

[ Edited by tjd808185 on Apr 8, 2010 at 10:54:15 ]

I think you could argue Grant Hill in his prime was right there too. Too bad he had those string of injuries.

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Niners99:

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by crzy:

Originally posted by Niners99:
and the best PF in NBA history

Karl Malone accomplished absolutely nothing in his prime.

Only when Barkley, Hakeem were way past their primes, and the Kemp Sonics imploded did the Jazz make the Finals.

One of the most overrated players in NBA history.

this

all time leading scorers:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - 38,387
2. Karl Malone - 36,928
3. Michael Jordan - 32,292
4. Wilt Chamberlain - 31,419
5. Shaquille O'Neal - 28,255



34. Tim Duncan - 20,330

Malone is also 1st in NBA history in free throws attempted and made, as well as 1st in defensive rebounds.

i watched Malone play alot more than most other people. he was that good, and he was the best PF ever. people have the same bias against Malone that they do with Barry Bonds. you dont like Malone, you think hes an ass, and a crappy person, so you laugh off the notion that the NBA's 2nd all time leading scorer might be the best to play his position.

basketball is a team sport. Malone not winning any titles shouldnt detract from how hes remembered as a player. he was an MVP caliber force that could dominate the paint, and stick a fade jumper in your face on the perimeter.

That's a terrible argument. Karl Malone played for 19 seasons, which is why he's #2 all time on the list. It's a testament to his longevity. He was a slightly better scorer than Duncan, but Duncan was a better rebounder and a MUCH, MUCH better defender.

You say that he ran into the "Jordan buzzsaw", but the truth is...he only got out of the West twice in his 18 years in Utah, despite having arguably the 2nd best PG of all time feeding him the ball. That has nothing to do with the Bulls. By contrast, Duncan's lead his team to 4 titles despite having to face the Kobe/Shaq Lakers for years.

Duncan was the better player, and it isn't really all that close.

a slightly better scorer eh? how about Duncan would have to nearly DOUBLE his current total of career pts in the next 6 seasons to catch Malone. 37,000 pts in 19 years > 20,000 pts in 13 years.

better rebounder? really? if duncan continues at his current career pace, hed be at 16,000 rebounds in 19 seasons compared to Malones 15,000 rebounds in 19 seasons. lets see if he lasts 6 more years first. you said "better rebounder" so confidently for someone who didnt look up the stats first. so IF he keeps up his career pace for 6 more years, he will be "slightly" better than Malone at rebounds.

Malone may have not been as good of a defender as Duncan, but he still was on 3 NBA all-defensive 1st teams and 1 second team.

Malone has a better career FG%, higher career MVP award shares, a better free throw shooter (74% career vs duncans 68%), he ranks 43rd all time in assists, despite being a PF, was a better passer, 10th all time in steals, again duncan nowhere to be found.

Duncan winning the rings is the only reason why you are high on him over Malone. and winning an NBA championship is a team effort. you think Duncan is solely responsible for any Spurs championship? heck no.

is Ben Roethlisberger a better QB than Dan Marino because he quarterbacked his team to more championships? Duncan is very good. 2nd best. but Malone was just too dominant for too long in too many different areas to not be number 1. he was an elite caliber scorer, rebounder, passer, and his assists and steals abilities for his position were incredible. he was also a very good defender as well as free throw shooter.

You're using aggregate numbers, which is merely a reflection of longevity, as pants said.

Scoring? Malone entered the league when the average team was scoring 110ppg. By contrast, Duncan entered in a "dead ball" era, where the league was scoring 95.6ppg, and played most of his career in that. He played on a team that played at a much slower pace than the Stockton/Malone Jazz teams did, and Duncan never had a point guard of Stockton's talent level giving him easy buckets. Parker is very good, but is much more of a scorer than a distributor. Malone was the beneficiary of many baskets that Stockton created for him.

Malone ran the court better than Duncan, and was better on the pick and roll. They were about even in terms of face up jump shots. In the half court aspects of offense (which suspiciously coincide with teams that generally win championships)...Duncan had superior footwork, was better at scoring with either hand, reading double teams, and putbacks on the offensive boards.

Defensively, which is where it's most important, it's not even close. Duncan was a shot-blocking, shot-changing presence that Malone never was. He controlled games on the defensive end. Malone didn't. Malone was superb at stripping players as they went up to shoot. Aside from that, he was an unremarkable defender.

On the boards...not even close. Duncan outrebounded Malone, despite playing on teams with a slower pace (which means fewer shots, and fewer misses to rebound). In Malone's best year, he grabbed 17.4% of the available rebounds when he was on the court.

That same number would be the second worst year of Duncan's career.

Your point about supporting casts is funny, because Malone had the 2nd best PG of all time, a top notch perimeter defender (Russell), a top notch interior defender (Ostertag), a catch & shoot guy (Hornacek), and an excellent bench (Eisley, Anderson, Carr, etc).

IMO, Malone isn't even the 2nd best PF ever, that honor goes to Garnett.

I would also like to add that one big reason why Malone didn't win even one championship was directly due to his weakness of not being able to post up as a Power Foward. This was also a reason why his teams didn't make it to the Finals more often. Once his jumpers went cold and the defense rotated the pick and roll well, Malone had nothing to fall back on. No post game, nothing.

Malone was known for relying on the jumper too much. The key ingredient that allowed him to make buckets near the basket (in the key) was Stockton's abilities as a PG.

Don't even get me started on Hornacek who was the X-Factor the Bulls keyed on in slowing that offense down. There's a reason why they put Pippen on him.

Originally posted by valrod33:

Originally posted by Negrodamus:

Originally posted by silkyjohnson:

Originally posted by LA9erFan:

Originally posted by Negrodamus:

That's a kick ass video right there. He guards every position on the court, and shows how good he was at every aspect of defense. Full court pressure, beating his man to the spot, fronting, shooting the passing lanes, weak side shot blocking, taking charges...everything.

That was beautiful!

the best Scottie Pippen videos hands down. I was so pumped last night watching all 5 of those vids.

i got a boner watching those

A lot of people say Jordan made Pippen better. But clearly after that video we can see that Pippen was great and helped make Jordan better as well.