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Poll for NBA fans (crosses fingers.........)

Poll for NBA fans (crosses fingers.........)

  • crzy
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 39,272
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by crzy:
Lebron is on another level than Kobe Bryant. He has been for years now. There has never been a physical specimen like Lebron James in the history of humanity. Someone that big, and that fast, with that level of coordination and finesse.

No, there has never been a physical specimen like LeBron James.

And no, LeBron hasn't been on another level than Kobe Bryant for years now. The only people who think this way are people who absolutely loathe Kobe, and have been clinging to ANYONE else they could and claiming that they were superior. Grant Hill. Tracy McGrady. Dwyane Wade. Even Chris Paul. It's been going on for years.

When NBA talent evaluators and NBA players are asked who the best player in the game is, Kobe is the person that's chosen. These aren't homers, and not people who hate Kobe either. No horse in the race.

You know I respect your opinion about basketball, but sometimes I wonder about your understanding of the floor game. LeBron's ball dominance has rendered the rest of his team to be pick setters and spot up jump shooters for years now, which is why they've lost virtually every playoff series against a true contender since he's been there. The only team that doesn't fit this description is the 2007 Pistons.

Lebron's USG% is about the same as Kobe's USG% this year.

And did you criticize Kobe for his ball dominance in 2005-2006? Kobe in 2005-2006 had a USG% of 38.7%, which means he had the ball in his hands more than Lebron did in any single season and even had the ball in his hands more than Jordan did before Scottie Pippen.

Not to mention, Lebron's ball dominance is a result of his supporting cast. How many players on the Cavs can create their own offense?

[ Edited by crzy on Jan 22, 2010 at 20:27:04 ]
Originally posted by crzy:
Lebron's USG% is about the same as Kobe's USG% this year.

And did you criticize Kobe for his ball dominance in 2005-2006? Kobe in 2005-2006 had a USG% of 38.7%, which means he had the ball in his hands more than Lebron did in any single season and even had the ball in his hands more than Jordan did before Scottie Pippen.

Not to mention, Lebron's ball dominance is a result of his supporting cast. How many players on the Cavs can create their own offense?

No, and you know why? Because Kobe lead an offense of Odom, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton into being the 8th most efficient offense in the league. USG% does not measure what I'm talking about, as it's just a calculation involving FGA, FTA, assists, and turnovers. Players like LeBron, Kobe, and Wade SHOULD have high usage rates, because they're the finishers on a play, whether it's calling their own number, or someone else's.

I'm talking about what goes on before the end of a play happens. Kobe gets his after a series of passes, cuts, and player movement that create opportunities for others. He operates within a sequence, whereas LeBron IS the sequence. And his teammates aren't allowed the same opportunities as a result. Since Shaq left, the Lakers have been a Top 8 offense (points per 100 poss.) every single year, despite having people like Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, & Luke Walton all starting a the same time.

Just look at players with and without LeBron or Kobe. Has any supporting player's career blossomed alongside LeBron? Because on the Lakers, guys like Pau Gasol go from being good big men to being considered one of the best in the game. Odom suddenly has the 4 most efficient years of his career. Fisher, who's been crap for several other teams, comes back, and has the most efficient season of his career. Guys like Smush Parker & Shannon Brown (former Cav 1st round pick) go from the end of benches to significant roles. I could name 5 other guys that have played significant time elsewhere, but had their best seasons in LA.

Cleveland does have other players who can create their own offense. Shaq was an all-star just last year, and now he's barely relevant. Goes from shooting a career high from the field (60.9%) last year, to a career low this year. (52.9%) Mo Williams was able to create his own offense in Milwaukee, but as soon as he moved to Cleveland, he ended up shooting almost 2 three pointers more per game, as his assists dropped by 2 per game.

[ Edited by LA9erFan on Jan 22, 2010 at 21:07:35 ]
  • jrg
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 105,044
Jeez, here we go again.
  • crzy
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 39,272
Originally posted by LA9erFan:
Originally posted by crzy:
Lebron's USG% is about the same as Kobe's USG% this year.

And did you criticize Kobe for his ball dominance in 2005-2006? Kobe in 2005-2006 had a USG% of 38.7%, which means he had the ball in his hands more than Lebron did in any single season and even had the ball in his hands more than Jordan did before Scottie Pippen.

Not to mention, Lebron's ball dominance is a result of his supporting cast. How many players on the Cavs can create their own offense?

No, and you know why? Because Kobe lead an offense of Odom, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton into being the 8th most efficient offense in the league. USG% does not measure what I'm talking about, as it's just a calculation involving FGA, FTA, assists, and turnovers. Players like LeBron, Kobe, and Wade SHOULD have high usage rates, because they're the finishers on a play, whether it's calling their own number, or someone else's.

I'm talking about what goes on before the end of a play happens. Kobe gets his after a series of passes, cuts, and player movement that create opportunities for others. He operates within a sequence, whereas LeBron IS the sequence. And his teammates aren't allowed the same opportunities as a result. Since Shaq left, the Lakers have been a Top 8 offense (points per 100 poss.) every single year, despite having people like Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, & Luke Walton all starting a the same time.

Just look at players with and without LeBron or Kobe. Has any supporting player's career blossomed alongside LeBron? Because on the Lakers, guys like Pau Gasol go from being good big men to being considered one of the best in the game. Odom suddenly has the 4 most efficient years of his career. Fisher, who's been crap for several other teams, comes back, and has the most efficient season of his career. Guys like Smush Parker & Shannon Brown (former Cav 1st round pick) go from the end of benches to significant roles. I could name 5 other guys that have played significant time elsewhere, but had their best seasons in LA.

Cleveland does have other players who can create their own offense. Shaq was an all-star just last year, and now he's barely relevant. Goes from shooting a career high from the field (60.9%) last year, to a career low this year. (52.9%) Mo Williams was able to create his own offense in Milwaukee, but as soon as he moved to Cleveland, he ended up shooting almost 2 three pointers more per game, as his assists dropped by 2 per game.


Most of you're saying is a critique of the Cleveland Cavaliers' offensive system, and doesn't really pertain to the individual argument of Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant. Those are two separate things.

The Cavaliers, I agree, run a "have four guys watching Lebron" offense much of the time. That's just the way that they've been structured and built. Yes, it's not exactly conducive to getting the best out of supporting players.

None of that really pertains to the player A vs player B argument. Lebron doesn't dictate which offensive system is run in Cleveland. The coaching staff dictates the offensive system.

I just disagree with the general direction of your argument.

The Warriors probably have the best "offensive system" for making players 6'7" and under look good. It's currently making Corey Maggette look like a Hall of Famer in the month of January. Conversely, the Pistons have an offensive system that isn't doesn't really get the most out of players. But I wouldn't argue that Maggette is a better player than Tayshaun Prince.
And thank you crzy for turning this into the same BS that it always turns in to.




What should be discussed is what would you take: Kobe's last, or Lebron's next 10 years?
  • crzy
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 39,272
Originally posted by StOnEy333:
And thank you crzy for turning this into the same BS that it always turns in to.




What should be discussed is what would you take: Kobe's last, or Lebron's next 10 years?

You started a thread about Kobe vs Lebron and you don't want people to argue Kobe vs Lebron?
Originally posted by crzy:
Originally posted by StOnEy333:
And thank you crzy for turning this into the same BS that it always turns in to.




What should be discussed is what would you take: Kobe's last, or Lebron's next 10 years?

You started a thread about Kobe vs Lebron and you don't want people to argue Kobe vs Lebron?

Kobe's last 10 years vs Lebron's next 10 years. That's what this thread is about. And stop with the whole innocent act. You're embarrassing yourself, kid.


And shame on you too, Pete.

[ Edited by StOnEy333 on Jan 23, 2010 at 00:03:23 ]
Originally posted by crzy:
Most of you're saying is a critique of the Cleveland Cavaliers' offensive system, and doesn't really pertain to the individual argument of Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant. Those are two separate things.

The Cavaliers, I agree, run a "have four guys watching Lebron" offense much of the time. That's just the way that they've been structured and built. Yes, it's not exactly conducive to getting the best out of supporting players.

None of that really pertains to the player A vs player B argument. Lebron doesn't dictate which offensive system is run in Cleveland. The coaching staff dictates the offensive system.

I just disagree with the general direction of your argument.

The Warriors probably have the best "offensive system" for making players 6'7" and under look good. It's currently making Corey Maggette look like a Hall of Famer in the month of January. Conversely, the Pistons have an offensive system that isn't doesn't really get the most out of players. But I wouldn't argue that Maggette is a better player than Tayshaun Prince.

Fair point. It's unfair to criticize a player for not functioning within an offense that he doesn't play in.

By the same token, I don't think that he could do so with the level of proficiency that Kobe does for two reasons. First and foremost, he's never exhibited a post up game. That's a place that off the ball movement can happen much more effectively than a PnR game. Secondly, he's not very good at coming off of screens, catching, and shooting. This is a scenario where a guy like Mo Williams can have the ball, and have the option of creating for himself, another teammate, or hitting LeBron off of a pindown.

Therefore, I think that his skill set suggests that much like the Warrior offense, he too is in an offensive system that fits his game perfectly...even though it may be to the detriment of others. With his size and strength, he's impossible to trap on a pick and roll, and once he gets a head of steam...it's over. And it'll probably end as an And-1 too. With his size, strength, and ball handling ability, it fits him perfectly. Other offenses that would allow more of a supporting cast would be at his detriment, IMO.

And that's the main reason I'll take Kobe's last 10 years to LeBron's next 10. LeBron's going to have to develop additional skill sets in order to compensate for when his athleticism begins to decline. I don't think that people appreciate how Kobe's skill set has put others (and his team, as an extension) in a position to succeed.
  • Oscar
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 10,232
Kobe's last 10 vs. Lebron's next 10, huh?

Originally posted by Oscar:
Kobe's last 10 vs. Lebron's next 10, huh?


Who's do you think will go down as better?
Kobe's my favorite player in the NBA (I'm a Warriors fan) and Lebron is on another level than Kobe and has been for years now. Just give the Cavs Shaq like Kobe had early in the decade and Lebron could win a championship easily. Wait...... let me rephrase that. Give the Cavs Shaq IN HIS PRIIIIME and Lebron would have many rings to match Kobe's.
Originally posted by YuNGaCE:
Kobe's my favorite player in the NBA (I'm a Warriors fan) and Lebron is on another level than Kobe and has been for years now. Just give the Cavs Shaq like Kobe had early in the decade and Lebron could win a championship easily. Wait...... let me rephrase that. Give the Cavs Shaq IN HIS PRIIIIME and Lebron would have many rings to match Kobe's.

People that say things like this clearly didn't watch the playoffs when the Lakers had their three peat. Anyone with any knowledge of the game knew how much Kobe brought to the table, and how he wasn't just the "sidekick".
Originally posted by DynastyChile:
Originally posted by YuNGaCE:
Kobe's my favorite player in the NBA (I'm a Warriors fan) and Lebron is on another level than Kobe and has been for years now. Just give the Cavs Shaq like Kobe had early in the decade and Lebron could win a championship easily. Wait...... let me rephrase that. Give the Cavs Shaq IN HIS PRIIIIME and Lebron would have many rings to match Kobe's.

People that say things like this clearly didn't watch the playoffs when the Lakers had their three peat. Anyone with any knowledge of the game knew how much Kobe brought to the table, and how he wasn't just the "sidekick".

I did and I used to be a Lakers fan until the the Fantastic 4 broke up (Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton). You can't dismiss Shaq's presence on the court, he was a force to be reckoned with. Their triangle offense was built around both players and each had a huge part. Lebron is basically the whole Cavs team. If he were to leave, their team would definitely be a top 5 pick. When Shaq left the Lakers, weren't they the 8th seed and lost in the 1st Round ?
Originally posted by YuNGaCE:
Originally posted by DynastyChile:
Originally posted by YuNGaCE:
Kobe's my favorite player in the NBA (I'm a Warriors fan) and Lebron is on another level than Kobe and has been for years now. Just give the Cavs Shaq like Kobe had early in the decade and Lebron could win a championship easily. Wait...... let me rephrase that. Give the Cavs Shaq IN HIS PRIIIIME and Lebron would have many rings to match Kobe's.

People that say things like this clearly didn't watch the playoffs when the Lakers had their three peat. Anyone with any knowledge of the game knew how much Kobe brought to the table, and how he wasn't just the "sidekick".

I did and I used to be a Lakers fan until the the Fantastic 4 broke up (Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton). You can't dismiss Shaq's presence on the court, he was a force to be reckoned with. Their triangle offense was built around both players and each had a huge part. Lebron is basically the whole Cavs team. If he were to leave, their team would definitely be a top 5 pick. When Shaq left the Lakers, weren't they the 8th seed and lost in the 1st Round ?

This statement is so ludicrous on so many levels. Do you have any idea who was on that team?

Im not going to argue with you on this. agree to disagree

Lets get back on the topic, sorry stoney.
Originally posted by DynastyChile:
Originally posted by YuNGaCE:
Originally posted by DynastyChile:
Originally posted by YuNGaCE:
Kobe's my favorite player in the NBA (I'm a Warriors fan) and Lebron is on another level than Kobe and has been for years now. Just give the Cavs Shaq like Kobe had early in the decade and Lebron could win a championship easily. Wait...... let me rephrase that. Give the Cavs Shaq IN HIS PRIIIIME and Lebron would have many rings to match Kobe's.

People that say things like this clearly didn't watch the playoffs when the Lakers had their three peat. Anyone with any knowledge of the game knew how much Kobe brought to the table, and how he wasn't just the "sidekick".

I did and I used to be a Lakers fan until the the Fantastic 4 broke up (Kobe/Shaq/Malone/Payton). You can't dismiss Shaq's presence on the court, he was a force to be reckoned with. Their triangle offense was built around both players and each had a huge part. Lebron is basically the whole Cavs team. If he were to leave, their team would definitely be a top 5 pick. When Shaq left the Lakers, weren't they the 8th seed and lost in the 1st Round ?

This statement is so ludicrous on so many levels. Do you have any idea who was on that team?

Im not going to argue with you on this. agree to disagree

Lets get back on the topic, sorry stoney.

Lebron single handedly takes Cavs to NBA Finals. Kobe struggles to make it out of the 1st Round with a team that had more talent than Lebron did......


gg
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