Is the talent on the roster really as bad as many think?

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:
I ask this question because I have seen teams that weren't viewed as the most talented become very good teams due to coaching. The 2011 49ers are the prime example of this. The pundits mostly viewed the 2011 49ers prior to the season as a below average talented team at best. Many thought that they would finish last place in their division. Suddenly, players play so much better because the coaches put them in position to play better. Alex Smith becomes a very good quarterback and guys like Tarrell Brown and Carlos Rogers play much better.

Now I'm not saying this is a talented team by no means. But I do think this is a team with some talent that is not being utilized correctly. I think this is a more talented team than a 0-7 record indicates.

I don't think Robert Saleh is a very good Defensive coordinator. Dropping nose tackles into coverage is awful play calling. Also, I see our 6'2 corners playing off coverage and the trail position, never trying to locate the ball. We should be having Rashard Robinson and Dontae Johnson at the line jamming receivers and using their size. That's how they'll play their best coverage. Have them mug receivers at the line like how Seattle does.

I just really feel like if Harbaugh and Vic Fangio were coaching this team, our defense would be so much better. I don't feel like guys are being used properly. I think coaching, particularly on defense is negatively impacting the potential of some of our players.

Anyone else feel the same way? Or do you guys just think our whole team is complete trash?

it works fot ATL atm because of the fact they can actually get pressure with 3 rushers

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:

I ask this question because I have seen teams that weren't viewed as the most talented become very good teams due to coaching. The 2011 49ers are the prime example of this. The pundits mostly viewed the 2011 49ers prior to the season as a below average talented team at best. Many thought that they would finish last place in their division. Suddenly, players play so much better because the coaches put them in position to play better. Alex Smith becomes a very good quarterback and guys like Tarrell Brown and Carlos Rogers play much better.

Now I'm not saying this is a talented team by no means. But I do think this is a team with some talent that is not being utilized correctly. I think this is a more talented team than a 0-7 record indicates.

I don't think Robert Saleh is a very good Defensive coordinator. Dropping nose tackles into coverage is awful play calling. Also, I see our 6'2 corners playing off coverage and the trail position, never trying to locate the ball. We should be having Rashard Robinson and Dontae Johnson at the line jamming receivers and using their size. That's how they'll play their best coverage. Have them mug receivers at the line like how Seattle does.

I just really feel like if Harbaugh and Vic Fangio were coaching this team, our defense would be so much better. I don't feel like guys are being used properly. I think coaching, particularly on defense is negatively impacting the potential of some of our players.

Anyone else feel the same way? Or do you guys just think our whole team is complete trash?

If you recall, the 2010 team was expected to make the playoffs. The talent was recognized. I only think expectations dropped for the 2011 season because of the 6-10 record. But we all knew that team had talent.

The 49ers roster is the least expensive in the NFL and quite possibly has the least amount of talent.
It is that bad.

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:

If you recall, the 2010 team was expected to make the playoffs. The talent was recognized. I only think expectations dropped for the 2011 season because of the 6-10 record. But we all knew that team had talent.

I'm sure we had fans saying you are what your record says you are then too. Good lesson.

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:

Originally posted by LottDMontanaO:

I definitely don't think the entire team is complete trash - I think the roster this year is better than the last couple of years. IMO the QBs, WRs, RBs (including Juice), the OL, the TEs, the DL, the LBs (with a healthy Foster) are all better at those respective positions. The secondary seems to be a wash (CBs seem to be worse this year, SS & FS are better this year). And, ST is better (Pinion has improved...he's near/at the top with most punts inside the 20; Gould is very solid; the return game seems better - Taylor has done well minus the terrible fumble last week). Going forward, you definitely have some pieces to work with on both sides of the ball. Add in leading the league in cap space plus high & many draft picks, and I'm keeping optimistic in looking ahead with Shanahan and Lynch leading the way.

Good post. And we are close to being 5-2 so we can't be too bad. We will definitely need to use that cap room effectively and have a good draft and we could be competitive as soon as next year I would think. We just need to have a good off-season.

Lol, close to being 5-2? We're 0-7... 4-3 is close to being 5-2. Maybe we should just start giving everyone participation trophies for only losing games by a few points...

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
If you recall, the 2010 team was expected to make the playoffs. The talent was recognized. I only think expectations dropped for the 2011 season because of the 6-10 record. But we all knew that team had talent.

I'm sure we had fans saying you are what your record says you are then too. Good lesson.

See I don't think many analysts viewed us as very talented and they predicted we'd finish last place in our division in 2011. Of course we were more talented than we are now, but my point is that 2011 team wasn't viewed as the most talented. Great coaching seemed to make a lot of guys play much better than what people perceived that their talent indicated. IE Alex Smith, Tarrell Brown, Dashon Goldson, Donte Whitner... all played much better in our system.

My point is that I believe this team isn't as bad as they're playing. They are not being utilized correctly. Rashard Robinson and Dontae Johnson should be playing at the line of scrimmage a lot more, like how the seahawks play press and mug WRs. I also think Ward and Tartt have the talent to play much better than what they are. I think better coaching could help this. Get a pass rusher and everyones play goes up as well. The offense looks much worse than it would because the interior of the line sucks. If you fix the guard and center positions, then the offense would be so much more efficient.

Originally posted by Lott49ersFan:

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:

Originally posted by LottDMontanaO:
I definitely don't think the entire team is complete trash - I think the roster this year is better than the last couple of years. IMO the QBs, WRs, RBs (including Juice), the OL, the TEs, the DL, the LBs (with a healthy Foster) are all better at those respective positions. The secondary seems to be a wash (CBs seem to be worse this year, SS & FS are better this year). And, ST is better (Pinion has improved...he's near/at the top with most punts inside the 20; Gould is very solid; the return game seems better - Taylor has done well minus the terrible fumble last week). Going forward, you definitely have some pieces to work with on both sides of the ball. Add in leading the league in cap space plus high & many draft picks, and I'm keeping optimistic in looking ahead with Shanahan and Lynch leading the way.

Good post. And we are close to being 5-2 so we can't be too bad. We will definitely need to use that cap room effectively and have a good draft and we could be competitive as soon as next year I would think. We just need to have a good off-season.

Lol, close to being 5-2? We're 0-7... 4-3 is close to being 5-2. Maybe we should just start giving everyone participation trophies for only losing games by a few points...

We lost five games within like 3 points each. A play or two here or there in each game and we could have won. The point is we have been competitive and that 0-7 record could have been 5-2 if we made a couple more plays in those five games. Also we got screwed on some BS calls in a couple of those games that sealed the deal for us to lose. So I'm trying to point out that we have been playing with teams and are not a 0-7 team that is getting destroyed. You understand

Originally posted by TheWooLick:
The 49ers roster is the least expensive in the NFL and quite possibly has the least amount of talent.
It is that bad.

The past few years have seen the loss of almost...make that every...elite player on the team. Hard to replace those blue chip guys but the team has loads of talent at the lower level...guys who are good solid, stable players. With Bowman being cut it leaves Staley as the lone pro bowl caliber player on the team. Hyde can be when healthy. So...they desperately need young guys to develop and to be very successful in the offseason--both in the draft and free agency. They have five picks in the first three rounds, and if they are able to get Cousins they could trade back for another top pick. Of course...that assumes there isn't a remarkable guy sitting at their top pick (1, 2, 3?).

What I expect is a decrease in penalties, better execution on both sides of the line, and guys looking like they understand their assignments. Robinson has looked very lost in Saleh's scheme and may need more freedom to make plays on the ball. They seem to be playing on their heals.

Here's what I think...there's some good talent on our team. That said, consider this...the team's had almost a 70% turnover from 2016. That's a ton. They all have to build chemistry with each other, and that's a tall order with so many new faces. It's a brand new coaching staff, too. Both the offense and defense aren't systems you just learn overnight...it wasn't until Shanahan's 2nd year with Matt Ryan that he really "got it" WRT Coach's offense. Just imagine how tough it is on Beathard to learn & master it. He'll get it, in time, which is a big reason Coach wanted him in the draft. As for Saleh, I think just like the offense, we'll all need to show some patience while the defensive guys learn his system and become proficient in it. Coach wanted him to lead the defense because he understands once they get the right players in place, they'll be a defense to reckon with. It's basically the same system they're running in Atlanta, which is a hybrid of the system Saleh learned in Seattle.

Keep in mind the Niners have the most cap space in the league...Lynch has already proven he won't hesitate to sign better UFA talent. This FA pool is strong in interior OL, WR's, DL and there are some excellent LB's and CB's to be acquired. He's got 5 picks in the first 3 rds in next year's draft...and I'd bet he'll add more picks via trades. So, there's two opportunities to improve the team's talent...so I'd urge continued patience in the meantime. I hate the losing as much as anyone, but having been a Niner fanatic for 60 years I've seen my share of this team's ups and downs. They'll get better...because we have dynamic new leadership to make that happen. But, as the saying goes, Rome wasn't built in a day. Neither will this team.

Yes its clearly that bad. The Niners are way below average at QB, WR, OL, LB, and Secondary. Their heralded DL is probably somewhere in the middle of the pack.

It isnt coaching that is resulting in an 0-7 record. In any professional sports league you have to have the talent to win and the Niners are seriously lacking in talent

it's not even about lack of TALENT. it's also INEXPERIENCE and YOUTH. Bowman lost a step, but his play recognition and veteran eyes sure did help defensively in the run game.

Theres like 10 guys worth keeping. This team has noooooo talent at all. Take the blinders off

Originally posted by TheWooLick:
The 49ers roster is the least expensive in the NFL and quite possibly has the least amount of talent.
It is that bad.

I agree.

Some argue that we should have been spending more money of FAs. If the amount of money we were willing to spend were the only factor I might agree. Sadly, it was reported that a number of top-end FAs were so uninterested in joining the Baalke/York train wreck that they were no even answering the phone.

You can't give enough money to a guy who would rather play for a winner than make an extra $1,000,000/yr. Case in point: Alex Mack. The guy was/is the best all-around center in the league and got to pick his team. He went to Atlanta because he could see a chance to play for a ring. No amount of money would have brought him to SF.

When no one wants to take any of your money you wind up with a lot of it in your pocket.

Originally posted by susweel:
I dont believe the entire "tanking" argument. I think ShannyLynch are trying to win and act like they are smarter than everyone else but are failing badly right now. The "tanking" thing is something created here in NT.

I don't believe in the 'tanking theory' either, however, I think Shanny/Lynch has prioritized evaluating the talent ahead of winning games this year. They have always talked to the media about being 'patient'. Shanny just didn't turn into a bad coach. Even though A Brooks, J Kerley & Bowman were the more talented players than what they kept, going forward into the next few years is more important. Then they can evaluate those players, they kept on the roster instead, for scheme fit, talent level etc and see if they want to keep them on the 53. They are bringing in UDFA's and scrubs to evaluate. Cooper, Douzable, T McDaniel, D Jones, L Hall, McCoil etc. Cooper must not have shown enough so they bring in D Jones. These players might not even make the 53, but, I'd rather they were looking at as many players as they can. The roster talent level is not very good. I could care less how many wins they get this year, mainly because my expectations were very low and I would love for them to get another top 3 pick.

Yes we lack talent, but that's not to say we don't have potential. We had something like a dozen rookies playing against Dallas. That pretty much sums it up, but in 2-3 seasons times guys like Thomas, Taylor, Foster, Kittle, etc could potentially be high level contributers. Others like Witherspoon, Breida, Beathard could be excellent backups behind a genuine too tier talent.

For now though it's pretty clear we lack that #1 talent in pretty much every single position. QB, RB, WR, CB etc. The chances of fixing that in a single off season is slim, especially when we still need to address other areas like the OL.

Right now we're asking a lot of guys to play above their talent. Robinson is not a #1 CB, Goodwin is not a top 2 WR etc

We have some nice foundation pieces, but we still have gaping holes. We definitely lack the elite talent who on any given day can be the difference between winning and losing.