Is the talent on the roster really as bad as many think?

Originally posted by susweel:
I dont believe the entire "tanking" argument. [snip] The "tanking" thing is something created here in NT.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Lobo49er:

I think the talent on the Offensive side is over-achieving and the the talent on the Defensive side is under-achieving - both a reflection of the respective coaching. Special teams talent is good, as is coaching, and its easily our best unit.

Minus a few hiccups, our ST has been great compared to the past 2 years. Even with all this coaching turnover recently, I wouldn't be opposed to hiring a better DC next year.

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Probably the worst in the league. At least bottom 3.

Bad talent + bad coaching = 0-7

Yup. It takes two to tank this badly.

I dont believe the entire "tanking" argument. I think ShannyLynch are trying to win and act like they are smarter than everyone else but are failing badly right now. The "tanking" thing is something created here in NT.

Yea. Unintentionally tanking.

Originally posted by pwillis52beasty:

I ask this question because I have seen teams that weren't viewed as the most talented become very good teams due to coaching. The 2011 49ers are the prime example of this. The pundits mostly viewed the 2011 49ers prior to the season as a below average talented team at best. Many thought that they would finish last place in their division. Suddenly, players play so much better because the coaches put them in position to play better. Alex Smith becomes a very good quarterback and guys like Tarrell Brown and Carlos Rogers play much better.

Now I'm not saying this is a talented team by no means. But I do think this is a team with some talent that is not being utilized correctly. I think this is a more talented team than a 0-7 record indicates.

I don't think Robert Saleh is a very good Defensive coordinator. Dropping nose tackles into coverage is awful play calling. Also, I see our 6'2 corners playing off coverage and the trail position, never trying to locate the ball. We should be having Rashard Robinson and Dontae Johnson at the line jamming receivers and using their size. That's how they'll play their best coverage. Have them mug receivers at the line like how Seattle does.

I just really feel like if Harbaugh and Vic Fangio were coaching this team, our defense would be so much better. I don't feel like guys are being used properly. I think coaching, particularly on defense is negatively impacting the potential of some of our players.

Anyone else feel the same way? Or do you guys just think our whole team is complete trash?

Press coverage only works if you have a pass rush.

Mediocre corners look like all stars with a pass rush.

And I pretty much disagree with everything else in your post.

A coordinator needs talent for his D to be even average.

That 2011 team had a lot of talent that just underachieved. Most of the pundits that thought otherwise didn't follow the 49ers very much because we weren't very good. We added the following players that all played a big role in our new identity and our run (off the top of my head):

Draft:
Aldon Smith
Bruce Miller
Chris Culliver
Kap
Colin Jones (ST stud)

Free Agency:
Rogers
Whitner
Akers
Goodwin
Gooden (Special Teams stud)

We inserted Bowman and Brown into the starting line up. So we upgraded our OL with a SB winning/Pro Bowl Center, we upgraded our pass rush, we upgraded our secondary and we upgraded our special teams. We had a very talented team in 2011 but we had to make some additions to compliment the youngsters. We were not rebuilding, we were legitimately re-tooling because we had a ton of talent already on the team.

This year, we had to bring in 40 new players to include QBs, WRs, two interior OL, and on defense, we are just so damn young it was going to be some growing pains. Different in 2011 when we had guys like Willis, Smith, Spikes, Whitner, Rogers, all veterans that have had successful careers at that point. We don't have that now. We have pretty much all youngsters, none of which have seen consistent success at this level. Doesn't mean they don't have talent, they just don't have the proven talent that we had in 2011. I think Harbaugh and staff did a great job of bringing out the best but he had some great pieces to work with. 40 new players and the majority of the roster being young with little to no individual success to this point is producing results that the majority of us expected.

Originally posted by susweel:
I dont believe the entire "tanking" argument. I think ShannyLynch are trying to win and act like they are smarter than everyone else but are failing badly right now. The "tanking" thing is something created here in NT.

i can not read this cuz i blocked it so there

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by susweel:
I dont believe the entire "tanking" argument. I think ShannyLynch are trying to win and act like they are smarter than everyone else but are failing badly right now. The "tanking" thing is something created here in NT.

i can not read this cuz i blocked it so there

lol you on a roll today.

Sad to see your former friends block you in your time of need.

Dallas and Carolina flat out kicked our ass showing how badly we're lacking premier talent at the key positions and demonstrated what we need to become a playoff team.

Thanks to parity though, we can see that even at the start of a rebuild, we're one bad call, one drop, one penalty, or one missed tackle away from being competitive right now while this young team learns, grows and develops.

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
Probably the worst in the league. At least bottom 3.

Bad talent + bad coaching = 0-7

Yup. It takes two to tank this badly.

I dont believe the entire "tanking" argument. I think ShannyLynch are trying to win and act like they are smarter than everyone else but are failing badly right now. The "tanking" thing is something created here in NT.

Roster before the season, even with full health was not going to win more than 6 games anyways. They will be thrilled with the Draft Order, without question

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by susweel:
I dont believe the entire "tanking" argument. I think ShannyLynch are trying to win and act like they are smarter than everyone else but are failing badly right now. The "tanking" thing is something created here in NT.

i can not read this cuz i blocked it so there

We are a good qb away from being 6-1 at the very least.

Originally posted by TonyStarks:
We are a good qb away from being 6-1 at the very least.

Lulz, there's holes all over the team that need filling. A good QB can't fix everything.

I think it is a combination of a few holes and too many young players. The Interior offensive line is the glaring area of lack of talent and WR needs another playmaker to complement Garçon.

Just a little reminder on how long this could take:

Before 2011, came 2005 and 7 straight years of basically top 10 picks and development over many many years which naturally meant, they peaked at the same time and retired at the same time.

This new regime has had 2 years of those top 10 picks (Buckner and Thomas). You may very well be right...5 more years if our own history repeats itself (hence the 6 year contacts).

Before 2011 could happen:
2004 - Isaac Sopoaga, Justin Smiley & Andy Lee
2005 - Alex Smith, David Bass, Frank Gore, Adam Snyder
2006 - Vernon Davis & Delanie Walker
2007 - Patrick Willis, Joe Staley, Ray McDonald, Dashon Goldson & Terell Brown
2008 -
2009 - Michael Crabtree
2010 - Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati & Navarro Bowman
2011 - Jim Harbaugh, Vic Fangio, Aldon Smith, Colin Kaepernick, Chris Culliver, Kendall Hunter, Daniel Kilgore, Colin Jones & Bruce Miller

Plus Justin Smith (2009) and other key FA signings to complete the roster.

It took a long time to draft and develop the cornerstones of that 2011-2013 run before everyone broke down and retired.

BetterRivals was noting the similar path for the Rams. They noted that any young QB that is finding early success today share a similar thread in having at least one key cornerstone on offense already (RB, WR, TE) and an excellent OL.

We have a horrendous OL and therefore, can't really evaluate BeatHard, Hyde/Breida, Kittle, Taylor, Goodwin, etc. on a consistent basis enough to tell if any of them will become true cornerstones for the future.

And that's unfortunate and hard to watch right now.

We remember the pounding Alex took back in the day on a similar path that BeatHard is on right now. Fortunately for him, he's got Kyle Shanahan and not Mike Nolan.

Originally posted by hummbabybear:

I think it is a combination of a few holes and too many young players. The Interior offensive line is the glaring area of lack of talent and WR needs another playmaker to complement Garçon.

There are times, on the talent topic, that if JUST Staley and Brown were on the OL, we'd be better off than having all 5. THAT is a talent issue.