Week 5 2017: Thoughts after rewatching the game...

Marvin - requesting no more political content in your weekly roundup. Just a request.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Welcome home WCO!

^ Bingo.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by evil:

Originally posted by Marvin49
The NFL is supposedly "discussing" rule changes to require player to stand for the anthem. The reality is that it would likely be argued against by the NFLPA and if it went to court would likely be shot down outright. No legal grounds to force a player to stand for the Anthem.

As such, where individual owners stand on the issue will be noticed by players as the process moves forward. Jerry Jones has already stated where he stands. I can't imagine thats popular with players. Jed York has made comments on where he stands. My guess is players will notice that as well.

As free agency looms and you are a good player in the NFL who happens to agree with the stance the players are taking, are you more likely to sign in SF with an owner that has publicly supported you or and owner in Dallas who want to force you to stand? SF also has a young HC who can relate to players with a brilliant offensive mind.

Don't be surprised if under the surface the political battle thats brewing oil NFL sidelines makes player choose a location and an owner that support their beliefs.

Just sayin',

yeah, on the heels of the potus threatening to end tax breaks to the league.

potus is trying to strong arm the league into doing what he wants. potus is not talking about why the players do it and does not respect that it is their right to do it. maybe he should try talking to the some of the players and try to understand why they do it and how they think he as the potus can help "make america great again" by helping resolve the issues they are kneeling for. if he actually tried to work with the players instead of working against them then maybe he could get them to all stand again in time.

SOOO much I want to say (in agreement), but trying really hard not to make this a political thread. My point was more geared toward the way the politics may change the product on the field.

First, your breakdowns are always an excellent read. Thank you!

I will only try to post once on this, else it turns into a political debate, and this is not the place. But, in regard to the legal aspect, a private business owner has nearly carte blanche authority over his employees, so long as what he asks does not infringe on someone's legal rights (read religion, race, etc.). There is no 1st Amendment aspect to the protests. People who cite the 1st Amendment have probably never read it. And, certainly don't understand it is a protection from the government, not your private employer. If the NFL forced players to stand, and people sought to take the NFL to court, it would be based on publicity, not on some overt legal argument, because the case would be won rather convincingly by the NFL.

Originally posted by Marvin49:
1) Hoyer: This is the kind of game that defines the reason why you don't decide how a player played in the game solely by a stat line. In fairness, he did make some good throws and there were a few drops, but it is abundantly clear he ain't the guy. Thats not a shocker. Just statement of fact.

2) Offensive Scheme: I am so excited to see where this offense goes once they have more pieces. Watching the games it seems like Kyle is scheming the hell out of the games and he is just one block here, one catch there or a better throw away from really having something. They have little bursts where you se guys wide open in space and they move down the field with ease and then they have spurts where they can't do anything. This team is on the right track. There is no question in my mind.

3) Defensive Scheme: I would say the same is true on the defensive side of the ball but a bit less so. When they hired Saleh I thought he's be something of a placeholder for possibly hiring Vic Fangio when he breaks loose next year. I still think thats a possibility, but now I kinda doubt it. They have completely changed the scheme. The young D-Linemen (especially #99...more on that later) are thriving. I don't know that you would want to switch back to another scheme. I have been pleasantly surprised so far by Saleh, but he has the same challenges that Kyle does. You can scheme all you want, but if you don't have the horses, it ain't gonna happen.

4) DeForest Buckner: Monster. Plain and simple.

5) Carlos Hyde: I'm a fan. I really like the guy. He can't stay healthy. Its maddening. Its ALWAYS SOMETHING with Carlos. He'll have a monster game and then disappear. I know he was limited in his opportunities this week, but he's clearly not the same right now. He's a FA after the season and right now I can't see them putting big money into retaining him. To be honest, I've had my eye on #26 at Penn State but I'll save that for a conversation at another time.

6) Tartt: He still makes mistakes, but he is a big part of the future. In fact, he more than any other reason might be why Eric Reid doesn't get a long term deal in SF. Really seeing him coming into his own. He did totally screw up on the first TD and thats going to happen from time to time, but the guy is a player.

7) Ray Ray: Another due who drives me crazy. On one play he looks outstanding. On the next I think he's brain dead. Guy has the athletic ability, but I can't wait till he's no longer in the starting lineup. I sense a 5AVA6E coming back soon. :)

8) Arik Armstead: Miscast. I don't know how good he can be in another scheme or in different role in this one, but he's totally miscast as a Leo. That isn't exactly a revelation either. He is a good NFL player trying to do something he's not suited for. I would be interested how he would play bigger, inside beside Buckner. Problem is that Solomon Thomas and Earl Mitchell seem to fit best there too. My guess is Armstead is on another team as early as next year and he'll play well for that new team.

9) WR: This will be an emphasis in the offseason, but I have to say I like the signing of Garcon much more now. Dude is a stud. I hope he has several years left in the tank to be a part of the future. Goodwin I like but its clear he's limited. IMO he should not be a starting player but should be a role player. Really like what I've seen from Trent Taylor.

10) Jed/Anthem/Jerry Jones: Two weeks in a row I'm going down the political path because I don't really think I have a choice...but this is a bit different. I'm not going to comment on whether players should/should not protest or if teams should or should not let them. I clearly have an opinion that would likely not surprise many of you but I actually think there is a football aspect to this that might be interesting to watch.

The NFL is supposedly "discussing" rule changes to require player to stand for the anthem. The reality is that it would likely be argued against by the NFLPA and if it went to court would likely be shot down outright. No legal grounds to force a player to stand for the Anthem.

As such, where individual owners stand on the issue will be noticed by players as the process moves forward. Jerry Jones has already stated where he stands. I can't imagine thats popular with players. Jed York has made comments on where he stands. My guess is players will notice that as well.

As free agency looms and you are a good player in the NFL who happens to agree with the stance the players are taking, are you more likely to sign in SF with an owner that has publicly supported you or and owner in Dallas who wants to force you to stand? SF also has a young HC who can relate to players with a brilliant offensive mind.

Don't be surprised if under the surface the political battle thats brewing on NFL sidelines makes players choose a location and an owner that support their beliefs.

Just sayin',

1. Agree. Common sense. He's a career backup.
2. Looks like I'm watching Browns games from 2014.
3. Agree. A lot of guys don't fit what hes trying to do.
4. He looks good.
5. Made of glass. Time to recycle.
6. Looks decent. Needs more playing time.
7. There's a reason he was a backup on the Raiders.
8. Waste of space.
9. Yeah, got a few guys with good hands.
10. No comment. Did not read.

Originally posted by Lobo49er:

Marvin - requesting no more political content in your weekly roundup. Just a request.


.

When the political content pertains to the team and the game I find it not only appropriate, but informative. If you don't want it, simply ignore it or don't read it. Nothing was offensive. No personal position was even offered.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
1) Hoyer: This is the kind of game that defines the reason why you don't decide how a player played in the game solely by a stat line. In fairness, he did make some good throws and there were a few drops, but it is abundantly clear he ain't the guy. Thats not a shocker. Just statement of fact.

2) Offensive Scheme: I am so excited to see where this offense goes once they have more pieces. Watching the games it seems like Kyle is scheming the hell out of the games and he is just one block here, one catch there or a better throw away from really having something. They have little bursts where you se guys wide open in space and they move down the field with ease and then they have spurts where they can't do anything. This team is on the right track. There is no question in my mind.

3) Defensive Scheme: I would say the same is true on the defensive side of the ball but a bit less so. When they hired Saleh I thought he's be something of a placeholder for possibly hiring Vic Fangio when he breaks loose next year. I still think thats a possibility, but now I kinda doubt it. They have completely changed the scheme. The young D-Linemen (especially #99...more on that later) are thriving. I don't know that you would want to switch back to another scheme. I have been pleasantly surprised so far by Saleh, but he has the same challenges that Kyle does. You can scheme all you want, but if you don't have the horses, it ain't gonna happen.

4) DeForest Buckner: Monster. Plain and simple.

5) Carlos Hyde: I'm a fan. I really like the guy. He can't stay healthy. Its maddening. Its ALWAYS SOMETHING with Carlos. He'll have a monster game and then disappear. I know he was limited in his opportunities this week, but he's clearly not the same right now. He's a FA after the season and right now I can't see them putting big money into retaining him. To be honest, I've had my eye on #26 at Penn State but I'll save that for a conversation at another time.

6) Tartt: He still makes mistakes, but he is a big part of the future. In fact, he more than any other reason might be why Eric Reid doesn't get a long term deal in SF. Really seeing him coming into his own. He did totally screw up on the first TD and thats going to happen from time to time, but the guy is a player.

7) Ray Ray: Another due who drives me crazy. On one play he looks outstanding. On the next I think he's brain dead. Guy has the athletic ability, but I can't wait till he's no longer in the starting lineup. I sense a 5AVA6E coming back soon. :)

8) Arik Armstead: Miscast. I don't know how good he can be in another scheme or in different role in this one, but he's totally miscast as a Leo. That isn't exactly a revelation either. He is a good NFL player trying to do something he's not suited for. I would be interested how he would play bigger, inside beside Buckner. Problem is that Solomon Thomas and Earl Mitchell seem to fit best there too. My guess is Armstead is on another team as early as next year and he'll play well for that new team.

9) WR: This will be an emphasis in the offseason, but I have to say I like the signing of Garcon much more now. Dude is a stud. I hope he has several years left in the tank to be a part of the future. Goodwin I like but its clear he's limited. IMO he should not be a starting player but should be a role player. Really like what I've seen from Trent Taylor.

10) Jed/Anthem/Jerry Jones: Two weeks in a row I'm going down the political path because I don't really think I have a choice...but this is a bit different. I'm not going to comment on whether players should/should not protest or if teams should or should not let them. I clearly have an opinion that would likely not surprise many of you but I actually think there is a football aspect to this that might be interesting to watch.

The NFL is supposedly "discussing" rule changes to require player to stand for the anthem. The reality is that it would likely be argued against by the NFLPA and if it went to court would likely be shot down outright. No legal grounds to force a player to stand for the Anthem.

As such, where individual owners stand on the issue will be noticed by players as the process moves forward. Jerry Jones has already stated where he stands. I can't imagine thats popular with players. Jed York has made comments on where he stands. My guess is players will notice that as well.

As free agency looms and you are a good player in the NFL who happens to agree with the stance the players are taking, are you more likely to sign in SF with an owner that has publicly supported you or and owner in Dallas who wants to force you to stand? SF also has a young HC who can relate to players with a brilliant offensive mind.

Don't be surprised if under the surface the political battle thats brewing on NFL sidelines makes players choose a location and an owner that support their beliefs.

Just sayin',

It always comes down to $$. This protest and it's lost message is clearly costing the NFL $$ and in relation it's going to cost the players $$ down the line.

Yes, but if $$ are equivalent...

To stand for the anthem is already part of NFL policy--they just don't enforce it. The NFL meeting will be spent reaffirming the policy and coming up with a league wide fine system for those who don't. By the way, the kneeling issue, supported or not, will not be the reason someone chooses to come to the Niners as a free agent. jed and John are going to have to over pay for whomever they want because they are negotiating from a position of weakness and no one wants to pay for the ever increasing taxes of California.

10. That would be a great question for all the webzone attorneys out there regarding government infringement and a private company's right to impose company regulations.

I think its total b.s. that NFL owners have been benefitting as a non profit.

3. Jeff Hafley and his 2ndary staff needs to be replaced. They should also be accountable for RR's poor performance.

Shout out to ST coach Richard Hightower. That unit is impressive and has been our biggest improvement thus far.

Originally posted by pickle:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
1) Hoyer: This is the kind of game that defines the reason why you don't decide how a player played in the game solely by a stat line. In fairness, he did make some good throws and there were a few drops, but it is abundantly clear he ain't the guy. Thats not a shocker. Just statement of fact.

2) Offensive Scheme: I am so excited to see where this offense goes once they have more pieces. Watching the games it seems like Kyle is scheming the hell out of the games and he is just one block here, one catch there or a better throw away from really having something. They have little bursts where you se guys wide open in space and they move down the field with ease and then they have spurts where they can't do anything. This team is on the right track. There is no question in my mind.

3) Defensive Scheme: I would say the same is true on the defensive side of the ball but a bit less so. When they hired Saleh I thought he's be something of a placeholder for possibly hiring Vic Fangio when he breaks loose next year. I still think thats a possibility, but now I kinda doubt it. They have completely changed the scheme. The young D-Linemen (especially #99...more on that later) are thriving. I don't know that you would want to switch back to another scheme. I have been pleasantly surprised so far by Saleh, but he has the same challenges that Kyle does. You can scheme all you want, but if you don't have the horses, it ain't gonna happen.

4) DeForest Buckner: Monster. Plain and simple.

5) Carlos Hyde: I'm a fan. I really like the guy. He can't stay healthy. Its maddening. Its ALWAYS SOMETHING with Carlos. He'll have a monster game and then disappear. I know he was limited in his opportunities this week, but he's clearly not the same right now. He's a FA after the season and right now I can't see them putting big money into retaining him. To be honest, I've had my eye on #26 at Penn State but I'll save that for a conversation at another time.

6) Tartt: He still makes mistakes, but he is a big part of the future. In fact, he more than any other reason might be why Eric Reid doesn't get a long term deal in SF. Really seeing him coming into his own. He did totally screw up on the first TD and thats going to happen from time to time, but the guy is a player.

7) Ray Ray: Another due who drives me crazy. On one play he looks outstanding. On the next I think he's brain dead. Guy has the athletic ability, but I can't wait till he's no longer in the starting lineup. I sense a 5AVA6E coming back soon. :)

8) Arik Armstead: Miscast. I don't know how good he can be in another scheme or in different role in this one, but he's totally miscast as a Leo. That isn't exactly a revelation either. He is a good NFL player trying to do something he's not suited for. I would be interested how he would play bigger, inside beside Buckner. Problem is that Solomon Thomas and Earl Mitchell seem to fit best there too. My guess is Armstead is on another team as early as next year and he'll play well for that new team.

9) WR: This will be an emphasis in the offseason, but I have to say I like the signing of Garcon much more now. Dude is a stud. I hope he has several years left in the tank to be a part of the future. Goodwin I like but its clear he's limited. IMO he should not be a starting player but should be a role player. Really like what I've seen from Trent Taylor.

10) Jed/Anthem/Jerry Jones: Two weeks in a row I'm going down the political path because I don't really think I have a choice...but this is a bit different. I'm not going to comment on whether players should/should not protest or if teams should or should not let them. I clearly have an opinion that would likely not surprise many of you but I actually think there is a football aspect to this that might be interesting to watch.

The NFL is supposedly "discussing" rule changes to require player to stand for the anthem. The reality is that it would likely be argued against by the NFLPA and if it went to court would likely be shot down outright. No legal grounds to force a player to stand for the Anthem.

As such, where individual owners stand on the issue will be noticed by players as the process moves forward. Jerry Jones has already stated where he stands. I can't imagine thats popular with players. Jed York has made comments on where he stands. My guess is players will notice that as well.

As free agency looms and you are a good player in the NFL who happens to agree with the stance the players are taking, are you more likely to sign in SF with an owner that has publicly supported you or and owner in Dallas who wants to force you to stand? SF also has a young HC who can relate to players with a brilliant offensive mind.

Don't be surprised if under the surface the political battle thats brewing on NFL sidelines makes players choose a location and an owner that support their beliefs.

Just sayin',

It always comes down to $$. This protest and it's lost message is clearly costing the NFL $$ and in relation it's going to cost the players $$ down the line.

Yes, but if $$ are equivalent...

To stand for the anthem is already part of NFL policy--they just don't enforce it. The NFL meeting will be spent reaffirming the policy and coming up with a league wide fine system for those who don't. By the way, the kneeling issue, supported or not, will not be the reason someone chooses to come to the Niners as a free agent. jed and John are going to have to over pay for whomever they want because they are negotiating from a position of weakness and no one wants to pay for the ever increasing taxes of California.

Yes, state tax is an issue.

I'm not talking about the kneeling "issue" BTW. I am referring to individual owners actions and reactions on the topic.

Originally posted by Hawaii49er:
10. That would be a great question for all the webzone attorneys out there regarding government infringement and a private company's right to impose company regulations.

I think its total b.s. that NFL owners have been benefitting as a non profit.

3. Jeff Hafley and his 2ndary staff needs to be replaced. They should also be accountable for RR's poor performance.

Shout out to ST coach Richard Hightower. That unit is impressive and has been our biggest improvement thus far.

If I recall correctly, the tax exempt thing is a great big red herring.

Its presented as a "9 billion dollar a year tax exempt industry" and thats not at all how I understand it.

The League Office itself is Tax Exempt. The Teams are NOT. All the money is in the teams.

Originally posted by Polkadots:
First, your breakdowns are always an excellent read. Thank you!

I will only try to post once on this, else it turns into a political debate, and this is not the place. But, in regard to the legal aspect, a private business owner has nearly carte blanche authority over his employees, so long as what he asks does not infringe on someone's legal rights (read religion, race, etc.). There is no 1st Amendment aspect to the protests. People who cite the 1st Amendment have probably never read it. And, certainly don't understand it is a protection from the government, not your private employer. If the NFL forced players to stand, and people sought to take the NFL to court, it would be based on publicity, not on some overt legal argument, because the case would be won rather convincingly by the NFL.

But the NFL is not a private business, each team is. Individual teams can probably decide like Jerry but if Jed doesn't want to comply I don't see how the rest of the owners can force him to do so. I dont know if you will get all 32 owners to agree to implement this.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by Polkadots:
First, your breakdowns are always an excellent read. Thank you!

I will only try to post once on this, else it turns into a political debate, and this is not the place. But, in regard to the legal aspect, a private business owner has nearly carte blanche authority over his employees, so long as what he asks does not infringe on someone's legal rights (read religion, race, etc.). There is no 1st Amendment aspect to the protests. People who cite the 1st Amendment have probably never read it. And, certainly don't understand it is a protection from the government, not your private employer. If the NFL forced players to stand, and people sought to take the NFL to court, it would be based on publicity, not on some overt legal argument, because the case would be won rather convincingly by the NFL.

But the NFL is not a private business, each team is. Individual teams can probably decide like Jerry but if Jed doesn't want to comply I don't see how the rest of the owners can force him to do so. I dont know if you will get all 32 owners to agree to implement this.

For sure. I believe you will see all 32 teams comply, but I am quite interested to see how it all goes down.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by Hawaii49er:

10. That would be a great question for all the webzone attorneys out there regarding government infringement and a private company's right to impose company regulations.

I think its total b.s. that NFL owners have been benefitting as a non profit.

3. Jeff Hafley and his 2ndary staff needs to be replaced. They should also be accountable for RR's poor performance.

Shout out to ST coach Richard Hightower. That unit is impressive and has been our biggest improvement thus far.

If I recall correctly, the tax exempt thing is a great big red herring.

Its presented as a "9 billion dollar a year tax exempt industry" and thats not at all how I understand it.

The League Office itself is Tax Exempt. The Teams are NOT. All the money is in the teams.

Sounds complex. That would be interesting how that breaks down with merchandising and other forms of revenue.

Originally posted by Polkadots:
For sure. I believe you will see all 32 teams comply, but I am quite interested to see how it all goes down.

They shouldn't. It should be a team by team choice, nothing should be mandated. Bowing to political correctness is pathetic.

I posted the same thing on Hoyer in the game day thread but people misunderstood it. Hoyer will post average to good stats in a game but it's normally because he puts us behind the chains and the opposing team, then posts big numbers in attempting to catch up before flaming out at the end in pressure.

We watch him miss reads and passes, see the oposing team go 3 scores up and then watch Hoyer have a mad moment where he strings together drives and then crashes out. If he was consistent we'd have won those 4 games because the offense would be sustaining drives and not puting the defense out on short fields.

His numbers flatter to deceive for me.

Originally posted by jcs:
Doesn't matter now...sounds like NFL is going to mandate standing for the anthem....

They're f**ked if they do. Players can easily call their bluff. Mass kneeling before playoff games, Super Bowls. Owners won't do anything. They're cowards. It's all to appease the flag huggers. Players even have military vets on their side. Would be better just to eliminate the anthem completely from regular season games.

Originally posted by 9ers4eva:

Originally posted by Polkadots:
For sure. I believe you will see all 32 teams comply, but I am quite interested to see how it all goes down.

They shouldn't. It should be a team by team choice, nothing should be mandated. Bowing to political correctness is pathetic.

While I agree with the final sentence, I don't think this revolves around political correctness as much as it does about dollars and cents.