Let's talk 49ers Secondary

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by mojave45:

The lack of pass rush almost certainly led to troubles in the secondary. You have to have everything working to have a decent defense. But Lamont still has a pint about being able to run all over us...but I agree an attacking defense,better coaching, a little more experience and new personnel should all help make this a better overall
defense this year. But I don't think we see it come together as fast as we might like.

No I agree teams didn't have to throw a ton to be successful on us last yr, but you can find an excuse to poo poo on just about every stat in football...that's my pt on that. End of the day we did have the 14th overall pass D.

Using total yards given up to rank is misleading. They had the 5th worst QB rating given up, which means QB were very efficient against them, and the yards given up per pass pass attempt was tied for 4th worst in the league (7.7 ypa).

The 2016 49ers faced the second least pass attempts in the league. So they faced the second least pass attempts and yet were middle of the pack in yards given up. Seems to me opposing QBs were very efficient against this 14th ranked pass defense.

Well that's a bummer...I also wouldn't expect a secondary to do very well when the QB has all day to throw and JoN's system can eat a dick lol....I thought the browns had some solid players in the back field with Haden, Gipson, Williams, Whitner and were 8th overall with Pettine calling the plays then 23rd the following yr with JoN running the D (ypg).

I think a perfect example was the pass D we had under Vic, we didn't have many studs or high end picks yet had a top tier pass D for a couple yrs...having studs in the front 7 makes life much easier.

We will see, IMO the defense from a personnel and coaching perspective has improved from last yr.

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by mojave45:
The lack of pass rush almost certainly led to troubles in the secondary. You have to have everything working to have a decent defense. But Lamont still has a pint about being able to run all over us...but I agree an attacking defense,better coaching, a little more experience and new personnel should all help make this a better overall
defense this year. But I don't think we see it come together as fast as we might like.

No I agree teams didn't have to throw a ton to be successful on us last yr, but you can find an excuse to poo poo on just about every stat in football...that's my pt on that. End of the day we did have the 14th overall pass D.

Using total yards given up to rank is misleading. They had the 5th worst QB rating given up, which means QB were very efficient against them, and the yards given up per pass pass attempt was tied for 4th worst in the league (7.7 ypa).

The 2016 49ers faced the second least pass attempts in the league. So they faced the second least pass attempts and yet were middle of the pack in yards given up. Seems to me opposing QBs were very efficient against this 14th ranked pass defense.

Well that's a bummer...I also wouldn't expect a secondary to do very well when the QB has all day to throw and JoN's system can eat a dick lol....I thought the browns had some solid players in the back field with Haden, Gipson, Williams, Whitner and were 8th overall with Pettine calling the plays then 23rd the following yr with JoN running the D (ypg).

I think a perfect example was the pass D we had under Vic, we didn't have many studs or high end picks yet had a top tier pass D for a couple yrs...having studs in the front 7 make life much easier.

We will see, IMO the defense from a personnel and coaching perspective have improved from last yr.

I didn't mean to poop on the secondary. Just saying that '14th ranked pass D' has missing context. And to your point, I agree pass defense isn't just a measurement of the talent in the secondary since the front 4 factors in so much, Fangio's defense being a good example. I thought that staff did a great job teaching a coverage scheme that was team oriented.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by mojave45:

The lack of pass rush almost certainly led to troubles in the secondary. You have to have everything working to have a decent defense. But Lamont still has a pint about being able to run all over us...but I agree an attacking defense,better coaching, a little more experience and new personnel should all help make this a better overall
defense this year. But I don't think we see it come together as fast as we might like.

No I agree teams didn't have to throw a ton to be successful on us last yr, but you can find an excuse to poo poo on just about every stat in football...that's my pt on that. End of the day we did have the 14th overall pass D.

Using total yards given up to rank is misleading. They had the 5th worst QB rating given up, which means QB were very efficient against them, and the yards given up per pass pass attempt was tied for 4th worst in the league (7.7 ypa).

The 2016 49ers faced the second least pass attempts in the league. So they faced the second least pass attempts and yet were middle of the pack in yards given up. Seems to me opposing QBs were very efficient against this 14th ranked pass defense.

Well that's a bummer...I also wouldn't expect a secondary to do very well when the QB has all day to throw and JoN's system can eat a dick lol....I thought the browns had some solid players in the back field with Haden, Gipson, Williams, Whitner and were 8th overall with Pettine calling the plays then 23rd the following yr with JoN running the D (ypg).

I think a perfect example was the pass D we had under Vic, we didn't have many studs or high end picks yet had a top tier pass D for a couple yrs...having studs in the front 7 make life much easier.

We will see, IMO the defense from a personnel and coaching perspective have improved from last yr.

I didn't mean to poop on the secondary. Just saying that '14th ranked pass D' has missing context. And to your point, I agree pass defense isn't just a measurement of the talent in the secondary since the front 4 factors in so much, Fangio's defense being a good example. I thought that staff did a great job teaching a coverage scheme that was team oriented.

Agreed

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NYniner85:

Originally posted by mojave45:

The lack of pass rush almost certainly led to troubles in the secondary. You have to have everything working to have a decent defense. But Lamont still has a pint about being able to run all over us...but I agree an attacking defense,better coaching, a little more experience and new personnel should all help make this a better overall
defense this year. But I don't think we see it come together as fast as we might like.

No I agree teams didn't have to throw a ton to be successful on us last yr, but you can find an excuse to poo poo on just about every stat in football...that's my pt on that. End of the day we did have the 14th overall pass D.

Using total yards given up to rank is misleading. They had the 5th worst QB rating given up, which means QB were very efficient against them, and the yards given up per pass pass attempt was tied for 4th worst in the league (7.7 ypa).

The 2016 49ers faced the second least pass attempts in the league. So they faced the second least pass attempts and yet were middle of the pack in yards given up. Seems to me opposing QBs were very efficient against this 14th ranked pass defense.

Well that's a bummer...I also wouldn't expect a secondary to do very well when the QB has all day to throw and JoN's system can eat a dick lol....I thought the browns had some solid players in the back field with Haden, Gipson, Williams, Whitner and were 8th overall with Pettine calling the plays then 23rd the following yr with JoN running the D (ypg).

I think a perfect example was the pass D we had under Vic, we didn't have many studs or high end picks yet had a top tier pass D for a couple yrs...having studs in the front 7 make life much easier.

We will see, IMO the defense from a personnel and coaching perspective have improved from last yr.

I didn't mean to poop on the secondary. Just saying that '14th ranked pass D' has missing context. And to your point, I agree pass defense isn't just a measurement of the talent in the secondary since the front 4 factors in so much, Fangio's defense being a good example. I thought that staff did a great job teaching a coverage scheme that was team oriented.

Agreed

Also,on a depleted team with no pass rush...New system,no TOP. When a team has a lead on you it's so much easier to play action and pass at will cause the D is always on their toes by thinking run to kill time and keep chains going but then passing is a gimme.

Let's fast forward to week 1 before we freak out over the secondary. Remember in 2011 our CB unit? We signed Carlos who at that time was seen as a meh signing but a good cover guy. But Brown and Brock both emerged ,50% give or take due to the rest of the team IMO.

Robinson on KB. DJ on Funchess unless Spoon leap frog DJ. Then we got Reaser,Redmond and Williams to worry about Samuel and McAffrey.

Then we got Seahawks,Rams before we tackle on the Cards. Perfect timing to have a month Into the season before you take on a more potent offense.

Good points all in this thread thus far... My two cents...since Harbaugh and his coaching staff left, this team has not had good coaching, both on an individual and scheme basis. Therefore, none of us really know what the players on the roster are truly capable of since they didn't received the necessary coaching and technique tips in order for them to reach their potential. Good coaching and scheming can hide deficiencies in a defense (and offense too) which all teams have to a degree. That is why the Patriots are so good year after year (and why the Niners were so good when Walsh was the coach).

The larger point is that now, all of us will see what each player is truly capable of because this GM and coaching staff is committed to putting all these players in positions where they can succeed (or in other words, helping to maximize player strengths and minimize deficiencies as best they can). It will be great to finally see this again. To me, this is what makes this :"rebuilding" year so fun and exciting.

I know the team only won 2 games last year and that is why everyone is stating that this roster had no talent. Well, if the coaching staff cannot help players reach their potential then you cannot say that the players have no talent. All you can say is that the coaching staff failed in bringing that talent out. Finally, it seems the team now has a staff in place that can do that.

Cheers!

Originally posted by longterm9erfan:

Good points all in this thread thus far... My two cents...since Harbaugh and his coaching staff left, this team has not had good coaching, both on an individual and scheme basis. Therefore, none of us really know what the players on the roster are truly capable of since they didn't received the necessary coaching and technique tips in order for them to reach their potential. Good coaching and scheming can hide deficiencies in a defense (and offense too) which all teams have to a degree. That is why the Patriots are so good year after year (and why the Niners were so good when Walsh was the coach).

The larger point is that now, all of us will see what each player is truly capable of because this GM and coaching staff is committed to putting all these players in positions where they can succeed (or in other words, helping to maximize player strengths and minimize deficiencies as best they can). It will be great to finally see this again. To me, this is what makes this :"rebuilding" year so fun and exciting.

I know the team only won 2 games last year and that is why everyone is stating that this roster had no talent. Well, if the coaching staff cannot help players reach their potential then you cannot say that the players have no talent. All you can say is that the coaching staff failed in bringing that talent out. Finally, it seems the team now has a staff in place that can do that.

Cheers!

Great post and perspective. I think, especially with this generation, fans are the most impatient. Even with all the confirmation on how underdeveloped college players are now coming into the NFL, esp. at the QB, WR and OL positions, players need extra years to develop, in particular, because of the college spread offensive trend.

But to your bigger point, we are the youngest team in the NFL and now they'll have proven NFL systems to grow within and potentially, outstanding coaches to learn from (esp. on offense).

Now, will fans be patient enough to allow players like Vance, Garnett, Brown, Beathard, Foster, Harold, Thomas, Armstead, etc. grow?

Probably not...LOL

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by longterm9erfan:

Good points all in this thread thus far... My two cents...since Harbaugh and his coaching staff left, this team has not had good coaching, both on an individual and scheme basis. Therefore, none of us really know what the players on the roster are truly capable of since they didn't received the necessary coaching and technique tips in order for them to reach their potential. Good coaching and scheming can hide deficiencies in a defense (and offense too) which all teams have to a degree. That is why the Patriots are so good year after year (and why the Niners were so good when Walsh was the coach).

The larger point is that now, all of us will see what each player is truly capable of because this GM and coaching staff is committed to putting all these players in positions where they can succeed (or in other words, helping to maximize player strengths and minimize deficiencies as best they can). It will be great to finally see this again. To me, this is what makes this :"rebuilding" year so fun and exciting.

I know the team only won 2 games last year and that is why everyone is stating that this roster had no talent. Well, if the coaching staff cannot help players reach their potential then you cannot say that the players have no talent. All you can say is that the coaching staff failed in bringing that talent out. Finally, it seems the team now has a staff in place that can do that.

Cheers!

Great post and perspective. I think, especially with this generation, fans are the most impatient. Even with all the confirmation on how underdeveloped college players are now coming into the NFL, esp. at the QB, WR and OL positions, players need extra years to develop, in particular, because of the college spread offensive trend.

But to your bigger point, we are the youngest team in the NFL and now they'll have proven NFL systems to grow within and potentially, outstanding coaches to learn from (esp. on offense).

Now, will fans be patient enough to allow players like Vance, Garnett, Brown, Beathard, Foster, Harold, Thomas, Armstead, etc. grow?

Probably not...LOL

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Thanks NC and Pasodoc..... Really appreciate the nice comments from you two especially...

Cheers!

Originally posted by 91til:

They are very young, but talented. Robinson and Ward have shown me enough to where I'm excited and optimistic about those two pieces. Even not having seen Ward at FS yet. Ward's durability at FS is a lingering worry. Reid, may not be quite as intimidating of an enforcer at the SS... but he's a guy that I hope, will make a lot of plays, tackles, PBUs... I think he can be solid to good. He is a smart veteran with some athleticism and talent. Plus there's Tartt as a wildcard / piece / depth. Can he unseat Reid? We don't know yet.

So that leaves one position, the other CB, that we're unsure about. Well, I guess two including slot cb.

Outside CBs -- Johnson, Redmond, Reaser, Witherspoon, Iworah

Nickel-- Williams, Redmond, Reaser

I don't know who will emerge as the starters at those two spots. I'm going to guess Redmond (outside) and Williams in the slot. Johnson, Witherspoon, and Reaser provide good young depth, and maybe one of them becomes the starter outside. But I feel like they are going to be ok, and probably grow throughout the season. Also they're all young and pushing each other. This is a group I'm actually, excited to watch. Hopefully with better run D, better pass rush and better play from the front 7 overall, along with playing in a simpler scheme, allows them to outperform outside expectations for this year.

I agree about Ward and Robinson. I am excited about both guys. They have shown they can be players and both should only get better. Ward seems like a natural fit at FS in this D. Robinson has unlimited upside and potential. I think he can be an elite corner and player.

Aside from those two guys though, there are huge ???. I like Will Redmond a lot and he is the wildcard. I think he can be a Janoris Jenkins type corner if healthy. I am also excited about J. Tartt and I hope he gets his chance. Again, I like Witherspoon a lot to. I had us taking him in the third rd in my 49ers Moxk and I thought it was a bit wishful thinking we could get him in the third. He is raw though, I'm bot sure what to expect from him as a rookie.

K'Wuan Williams is going to be real key for us in the secondary. He will be our nickel corner and he could really either be the glue that holds the Secobdary or be a liability. One thing is for sure, our secondary coach Jeff Haftley had to really vouch for him because he coached in Cleveland and in college at Pitt.

I would love if Dontae Johnson or Keith Reasee end up being a real present surprise and step up for us at corner 🙏.

Lorenzo Jerome is going to be a player. Another Zack Bronson type player, story and find.

I like this group a lot... I'd like to see the list below as the starting secondary come Game 1.

LCB - The Thief Robinson
RCB - The E-Reaser
NB - Will The Thrill
SS - The Pop Tartt
FS - The ZOrro

Originally posted by StubbyNBY:

Originally posted by 91til:

They are very young, but talented. Robinson and Ward have shown me enough to where I'm excited and optimistic about those two pieces. Even not having seen Ward at FS yet. Ward's durability at FS is a lingering worry. Reid, may not be quite as intimidating of an enforcer at the SS... but he's a guy that I hope, will make a lot of plays, tackles, PBUs... I think he can be solid to good. He is a smart veteran with some athleticism and talent. Plus there's Tartt as a wildcard / piece / depth. Can he unseat Reid? We don't know yet.

So that leaves one position, the other CB, that we're unsure about. Well, I guess two including slot cb.

Outside CBs -- Johnson, Redmond, Reaser, Witherspoon, Iworah

Nickel-- Williams, Redmond, Reaser

I don't know who will emerge as the starters at those two spots. I'm going to guess Redmond (outside) and Williams in the slot. Johnson, Witherspoon, and Reaser provide good young depth, and maybe one of them becomes the starter outside. But I feel like they are going to be ok, and probably grow throughout the season. Also they're all young and pushing each other. This is a group I'm actually, excited to watch. Hopefully with better run D, better pass rush and better play from the front 7 overall, along with playing in a simpler scheme, allows them to outperform outside expectations for this year.

I agree about Ward and Robinson. I am excited about both guys. They have shown they can be players and both should only get better. Ward seems like a natural fit at FS in this D. Robinson has unlimited upside and potential. I think he can be an elite corner and player.

Aside from those two guys though, there are huge ???. I like Will Redmond a lot and he is the wildcard. I think he can be a Janoris Jenkins type corner if healthy. I am also excited about J. Tartt and I hope he gets his chance. Again, I like Witherspoon a lot to. I had us taking him in the third rd in my 49ers Moxk and I thought it was a bit wishful thinking we could get him in the third. He is raw though, I'm bot sure what to expect from him as a rookie.

K'Wuan Williams is going to be real key for us in the secondary. He will be our nickel corner and he could really either be the glue that holds the Secobdary or be a liability. One thing is for sure, our secondary coach Jeff Haftley had to really vouch for him because he coached in Cleveland and in college at Pitt.

I would love if Dontae Johnson or Keith Reasee end up being a real present surprise and step up for us at corner 🙏.

Lorenzo Jerome is going to be a player. Another Zack Bronson type player, story and find.

good post to keep the ball rolling on. See my post above. Starts with Carolina, let's focus on that matchup. Then we can continue off of that IMO. We matchup good against CAR. I think we can outscheme enough, so we continue the tradition of the unknown and punch Carolina in the mouth for a week 1 victory.

Originally posted by 9moon:
I like this group a lot... I'd like to see the list below as the starting secondary come Game 1.

LCB - The Thief Robinson
RCB - The E-Reaser
NB - Will The Thrill
SS - The Pop Tartt
FS - The ZOrro

the zorro?

Assuming that's LorenZO Jerome

Lynch was a Pro bowl safety on a SB team, I trust his judgement along with the DC on the dynamic of the secondary. Pretty much the whole defense.

I think we are in good hands on both side of the ball with Shanahan and Lynch.

Originally posted by 9moon:
I like this group a lot... I'd like to see the list below as the starting secondary come Game 1.

LCB - The Thief Robinson
RCB - The E-Reaser
NB - Will The Thrill
SS - The Pop Tartt
FS - The ZOrro

I love these names. Awesome.