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Sam, Mike & Will

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Originally posted by Lobo49er:
Saleh actually didn't say Smith was anything, but when asked about who would play SAM, He didn't mention Malcom.

Also, during minicamp, Malcom Was lined up at Will .

To me, Malcolm screams Will. But so does Rueben. Honestly, I don't care how much they paid Malcolm, a healthy Rueben should start. Malcolm can sit the whole year and be depth, if needed. I don't see Malcolm as the Sam - I think Brooks is the best SAM on the roster right now and maybe Eli can do it too.

As for the OP's lineup, I like it. I would rather see D.J. as the NT though. I like Dial as a back up, but not so much as a starter.

Forgot to add, Malcolm's contract is not structured as a true five-year long-term contract. I wouldn't sweat his contract too much.

Malcolm sucks in coverage tho.. which is a big part of playing Will. I think he should play SAM and MIKE if Bowman is hurt.
Originally posted by Bobdawg78:
Malcolms contract isn't as team friendly as you think. They gave him a 7 million dollar signing bonus and guaranteed 4.5 million in base salary over the first 2 years. He will be a negative cap hit if we get rid of him before he plays 2 seasons. Before the 3rd season we'd only save 1.25 million if we cut him, or like 2+ million if we use the June 1 cut, and spread the cap hit over 2 years.

We have all this cap space, and Lynch is still giving signing bonuses to guys who won't be here for the duration of their contract. That's the one thing I don't like, because when we cut or trade them years later, we take cap hits, and have DEAD MONEY on the books. If we only wanted Malcolm for 3 years, then guarantee the 11.5 million in base salary over his first 3 seasons, with NO SIGNING BONUS, thus if we want to trade him, then we don't take a cap hit, or have dead money on the books. Sad to say, but the Raiders are very smart in the way they've been doing contracts, and they continue to keep their guys, and continue to have money to add in FA, because they Front load contracts, and don't give out signing bonuses to FA's.

Agree with everything you said, Bobdawg, but blowing this UDFA money, moreso than any other team, has resulted in UDFAs thinking, "SF First stop". This is exactly how we got the #1 UDFA mini- mite 5'9" Safety to sign with us...and he has a legit chance of making it. If we were a stacked team with 22 bona fide starters, and 2 deep backups besides, and wiht little or no cap room, then no...bad idea. But for now, when we finished last yr with maybe half a dozen legit starters, and no depth anywhere, plus add in a ton of cap room....well, under those circumstances, it seems to have worked for us. But will we do this forever? Probably not. Give Lynch credit tho, for turning over every rock to find guys who can help build our team up. And that includes these UDFA signings, where we have definitely blown some money on guys who are pretty sure to get cut or , are already gone.
I don't have a good feeling about our LB corp. Our DL better be dominant because 2 of our starting 3 LBs could have injury issues.
Originally posted by Niners99:
Bowman is the MIKE. Hes the leader, and hes the one making the defensive calls. Physically hes not what he used to to be, so hes not going to be playing the speed position at WILL, or the coverage position at SAM. He's perfect for MIKE.

Being the Mike has nothing to do with being the leader. It has already been said that whoever communicates the calls the best will be the Mike. Considering Smith has 4 years in the defense he may just be that guy. Im not saying he will be but I wouldn't rule it out.

The cover position is the weakside or the will. The Sam plays with his hand in the dirt up to 70% of the time.
Anyone think Taumoepenu has the tools to fill the SAM role in this defense?
Originally posted by 49erThrowback:
Anyone think Taumoepenu has the tools to fill the SAM role in this defense?

On obvious passing downs most definitely. But he is more of a pass rushing specialist. I don't think he will ever Translate to a 3 down Sam but I could be wrong.
Originally posted by GoldBlooded:
I do remember Saleh mentioning transitioning from the traditional thumper backer. Soooo, who would play the role currently on this team? I think Foster is the perfect WILL and at this point of his career I think Bow is perfect where he is in the middle is. If he never had those injuries I'd say he'd be ideal for Salehs SAM with Smith in the middle. I think Smith will get swallowed up on the strong side.

Yeah, I have a base down competition between Eli and Smith. If Eli proves to be a good edge rusher, he could be an every down SAM. Smith has the experience there but isn't an edge rusher. So he'd play base downs but come off the field in pass rush situations for one of these guys: ER: Aaron Lynch, Eli Harold, Dekoda Watson & Pita Taumoepenu. Add Brooks to that as well (for you, Lobo).

So it's really up yup Eli. Either way, that position will be sub'd a lot for our second best edge rusher off of LDE.
[ Edited by NCommand on May 11, 2017 at 9:19 AM ]
Malcolm sucks in coverage tho.. which is a big part of playing Will. I think he should play SAM and MIKE if Bowman is hurt.

I agree. Seems like the best fit is to put him at MIKE but I like Bow there as our leader.
[ Edited by GoldBlooded on May 11, 2017 at 9:31 AM ]
Originally posted by AB81Rules:
Question, why is DJ Jones ahead of Earl Mitchell on your depth chart?

Because Jones is going to beat his ass in TC. Book it.
[ Edited by NCommand on May 11, 2017 at 9:27 AM ]
  • thl408
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by GoldBlooded:
I do remember Saleh mentioning transitioning from the traditional thumper backer. Soooo, who would play the role currently on this team? I think Foster is the perfect WILL and at this point of his career I think Bow is perfect where he is in the middle is. If he never had those injuries I'd say he'd be ideal for Salehs SAM with Smith in the middle. I think Smith will get swallowed up on the strong side.

Yeah, I have a base down competition between Eli and Smith. If Eli proves to be a good edge rusher, he could be an every down SAM. Smith has the experience there but isn't an edge rusher. So he'd play base downs but come off the field in pass rush situations for one of these guys: ER: Aaron Lynch, Eli Harold, Dekoda Watson & Pita Taumoepenu. Add Brooks to that as well (for you, Lobo).

So it's really up yup Eli. Either way, that position will be sub'd a lot for our second best edge rusher off of LDE.
That's an interesting point. I know Saleh wants a Sam that can set the edge, cover TEs, and pass rush in subpackages, but if there isn't a player that possesses all those skillsets, I don't see a problem with subbing the Sam out for an edge rusher in passing downs. It doesn't have to be one player that can do all those things (set edge, cover, pass rush). That's the goal for Saleh's Sam, but if that player doesn't currently exist on the roster, then just substitute the base Sam out in nickel/dime in exchange for someone that can rush off the edge.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, I have a base down competition between Eli and Smith. If Eli proves to be a good edge rusher, he could be an every down SAM. Smith has the experience there but isn't an edge rusher. So he'd play base downs but come off the field in pass rush situations for one of these guys: ER: Aaron Lynch, Eli Harold, Dekoda Watson & Pita Taumoepenu. Add Brooks to that as well (for you, Lobo).

So it's really up yup Eli. Either way, that position will be sub'd a lot for our second best edge rusher off of LDE.

Our best rotation as of today would be Smith at the Mike, Bow at the Sam and Foster at the will in base/running downs.

On passing downs, Smith hits the pine, Bowman goes to the middle and Foster stays put. Insert best pass rusher at the Sam.

Eli, Brooks, etc are serviceable at best. I honestly don't want to see any of them playing a 3 down role. Things could change in camp but I just don't see it. Id rather play Pita at Sam in passing situations and he is a late round pick.
I remember saying, "Eli actually does a solid job of setting the edge but is terrible at rushing the passer. He would be a solid 4-3 OLB". Haha.
  • thl408
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Originally posted by JBrack:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Yeah, I have a base down competition between Eli and Smith. If Eli proves to be a good edge rusher, he could be an every down SAM. Smith has the experience there but isn't an edge rusher. So he'd play base downs but come off the field in pass rush situations for one of these guys: ER: Aaron Lynch, Eli Harold, Dekoda Watson & Pita Taumoepenu. Add Brooks to that as well (for you, Lobo).

So it's really up yup Eli. Either way, that position will be sub'd a lot for our second best edge rusher off of LDE.

Our best rotation as of today would be Smith at the Mike, Bow at the Sam and Foster at the will in base/running downs.

On passing downs, Smith hits the pine, Bowman goes to the middle and Foster stays put. Insert best pass rusher at the Sam.

Eli, Brooks, etc are serviceable at best. I honestly don't want to see any of them playing a 3 down role. Things could change in camp but I just don't see it. Id rather play Pita at Sam in passing situations and he is a late round pick.

Watching Bow over the years, his strength is when he's clean of blockers, reading the play, knifing in to blow things up. He can't do that as a Sam LB when a TE or Tackle can easily get their hands on him. He should be off the ball in a 4-3 Under - a second level defender. I feel confident in saying that Bow will not be the Sam in this defense. If so, I would really question that decision. Bow should be a Will or Mike. Being as how Bow is so smart, and Foster is built perfectly for Will, that puts Bow at Mike. imo
Originally posted by thl408:
Watching Bow over the years, his strength is when he's clean of blockers, reading the play, knifing in to blow things up. He can't do that as a Sam LB when a TE or Tackle can easily get their hands on him. He should be off the ball in a 4-3 Under - a second level defender. I feel confident in saying that Bow will not be the Sam in this defense. If so, I would really question that decision. Bow should be a Will or Mike. Being as how Bow is so smart, and Foster is built perfectly for Will, that puts Bow at Mike. imo

No question.
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by GoldBlooded:
I do remember Saleh mentioning transitioning from the traditional thumper backer. Soooo, who would play the role currently on this team? I think Foster is the perfect WILL and at this point of his career I think Bow is perfect where he is in the middle is. If he never had those injuries I'd say he'd be ideal for Salehs SAM with Smith in the middle. I think Smith will get swallowed up on the strong side.

Yeah, I have a base down competition between Eli and Smith. If Eli proves to be a good edge rusher, he could be an every down SAM. Smith has the experience there but isn't an edge rusher. So he'd play base downs but come off the field in pass rush situations for one of these guys: ER: Aaron Lynch, Eli Harold, Dekoda Watson & Pita Taumoepenu. Add Brooks to that as well (for you, Lobo).

So it's really up yup Eli. Either way, that position will be sub'd a lot for our second best edge rusher off of LDE.
That's an interesting point. I know Saleh wants a Sam that can set the edge, cover TEs, and pass rush in subpackages, but if there isn't a player that possesses all those skillsets, I don't see a problem with subbing the Sam out for an edge rusher in passing downs. It doesn't have to be one player that can do all those things (set edge, cover, pass rush). That's the goal for Saleh's Sam, but if that player doesn't currently exist on the roster, then just substitute the base Sam out in nickel/dime in exchange for someone that can rush off the edge.

I do think it with end up being a split role at SAM...same might be said for the Elephant. AA on base downs and our best ER comes in for him while he slides inside or takes a breather on key pass rush downs. In fact, this is why I note the interior and edge rushers in my mock 53. Even players like Buckner and Thomas may start out at end but slide inside on pass rush downs. I think Saleh captures it perfectly when he says, "We're not traditional."

...yet.
[ Edited by NCommand on May 11, 2017 at 9:48 AM ]
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