Roster Analysis: Before the Draft and Free Agency

Originally posted by NCommand:

I hear you. Per MB he notes the following:

Defensive front
Left defensive end. This player lines up opposite the "Leo" and typically has been a bigger player who can stop the run.

Left Defensive tackle/nose tackle. Even though the Seahawks use a base 4-3, they still have a role for someone who lines up over the opposition's center. This typically has been a shorter, stubbier player in Seattle's system (think: Brandon Mebane). The best recent 49er for this position is Ian Williams, but he was released in October and his NFL future is very much up in the area due to recent injuries. The team's top nose tackle from last year, Glenn Dorsey, is a pending free agent. Quinton Dial is an option, but at 6-5, he's not a prototypical nose tackle, especially in this particular scheme.

Right defensive tackle. This position should be the team's top pass-rushing interior lineman. The 49ers will want to have Arik Armstead and DeForest Buckner on the field, and they must figure out which is best for this spot vs. left defensive end. The guess here is that Buckner would play this position with Armstead at defensive end.

"Leo" right defensive end. This is the marquee position along the defensive front. The position essentially is the same as the "elephant" defensive end the 49ers employed in their heyday -- Charles Haley, Chris Doleman, etc. (It's no coincidence that Carroll was San Francisco's defensive coordinator in 1995-96). The Leo is the team's best pass rusher and most athletic edge rusher. He plays on the weak side (non-tight end side) of the defense and usually goes against the opponent's left tackle. Chris Clemons and Cliff Avril have played this role for the Seahawks in the past. For the 49ers? Ahmad Brooks or Aaron Lynch probably fit best. A high-round rookie draft pick, say Texas A&M's Myles Garrett or Alabama's Tim Williams, would be far more ideal.

So it looks like: AA - Big Body - Buckner - Best Edge Rusher

But obviously, there could be a number of combinations in the works here esp. when you add in players like Lynch, Brooks, Harold, Blair, Jones, etc. Seattle typically lines their DE's out wide too to help in funneling the runs back inside and give them more room to beat their T's. The idea of Buckner at LDE on base downs and AA on pass rush downs was just an idea. Lynch is more natural on the left side and too fat for a LEO rusher (and not quick enough; I disagree with MB here).

I have to disagree on Lynch not being able to play the LEO. All he has to do is drop down to his proper playing weight of 265 - 270 and he can be that guy. I remember him coming off the edge against the Giants in 2015 and beat the LT on almost EVERY, SINGLE, PLAY with ease -- but no one else could get home, corners provided way too much cushion, and Eli Manning rocketed the ball out in less than two seconds (if I recall, I think they showed a graphic with it being something like 1.8 seconds), but Lynch was there or getting a hit on him almost every time. Just no one else was making a play.

From what I've seen from Lynch, if he's legitimately in shape, he could easily play either side in this system. Ideally, my depth chart would be:

LDE: Armstead, Rookie/FA
LDT: Dorsey, Rookie/FA
RDT: Buckner, Dial
RDE: Lynch, Blair

Of course, this is assuming guys like Harold and Carradine are cut or traded.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I have to disagree on Lynch not being able to play the LEO. All he has to do is drop down to his proper playing weight of 265 - 270 and he can be that guy.

What's his weight as of now? He is young but has shown but has shown bad decision making, drugs and weight gain.

LDE: Armstead, Rookie/FA
LDT: Buckner, Dial
RDT: STUD FA, Rookie/FA
RDE: MELVIN INGRAM, Lynch, Blair

?

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

I have to disagree on Lynch not being able to play the LEO. All he has to do is drop down to his proper playing weight of 265 - 270 and he can be that guy. I remember him coming off the edge against the Giants in 2015 and beat the LT on almost EVERY, SINGLE, PLAY with ease -- but no one else could get home, corners provided way too much cushion, and Eli Manning rocketed the ball out in less than two seconds (if I recall, I think they showed a graphic with it being something like 1.8 seconds), but Lynch was there or getting a hit on him almost every time. Just no one else was making a play.

From what I've seen from Lynch, if he's legitimately in shape, he could easily play either side in this system. Ideally, my depth chart would be:

LDE: Armstead, Rookie/FA
LDT: Dorsey, Rookie/FA
RDT: Buckner, Dial
RDE: Lynch, Blair

Of course, this is assuming guys like Harold and Carradine are cut or traded.

I hear yeah. Like you said, much of it will hinge on his commitment especially to weight and refining his technique (quickness/pass rush moves) on the other side of the DL and putting his hand in the ground.

The dude was easily playing 290-300 last year: https://www.google.com/amp/ninerswire.usatoday.com/2016/10/04/49ers-aaron-lynch-says-he-weighed-up-to-300-pounds/amp/

I just think he's more natural on the left side, can stuff the run and seal the edge and can still rush the passer from there as well especially on base downs.

Can he convert to LEO? I sure hope so...it's a critical position for us now.

Matt barrows made an error. The gap is between the leo and DT/NT. On the above list MB gave, the gap is wrong. If the leo is the RDE then your best interior pass rusher will be the LDT.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
NC...I know most are putting Armstead at DE and Buckner at DT but that seems terribly backwards to me. Armstead is now quick enough to contain the outside, but Buckner is capable. I guess it would depend on the LBs and how the scheme is run but I believe they will put Blair, Lynch or Brooks at LDE and Armstead at LDT. Then a new DT and Buckner at RDE. Right now they may play Buckner inside as they don't have a great DT prospect. Purcell or Davis? They may be much better in a 4/3 alignment but I doubt it...just not strong enough to be a starter in either scheme. Hope I wrong about that as it would eliminate one need!

I hear you. Per MB he notes the following:

Defensive front
Left defensive end. This player lines up opposite the "Leo" and typically has been a bigger player who can stop the run.

Left Defensive tackle/nose tackle. Even though the Seahawks use a base 4-3, they still have a role for someone who lines up over the opposition's center. This typically has been a shorter, stubbier player in Seattle's system (think: Brandon Mebane). The best recent 49er for this position is Ian Williams, but he was released in October and his NFL future is very much up in the area due to recent injuries. The team's top nose tackle from last year, Glenn Dorsey, is a pending free agent. Quinton Dial is an option, but at 6-5, he's not a prototypical nose tackle, especially in this particular scheme.

Right defensive tackle. This position should be the team's top pass-rushing interior lineman. The 49ers will want to have Arik Armstead and DeForest Buckner on the field, and they must figure out which is best for this spot vs. left defensive end. The guess here is that Buckner would play this position with Armstead at defensive end.

"Leo" right defensive end. This is the marquee position along the defensive front. The position essentially is the same as the "elephant" defensive end the 49ers employed in their heyday -- Charles Haley, Chris Doleman, etc. (It's no coincidence that Carroll was San Francisco's defensive coordinator in 1995-96). The Leo is the team's best pass rusher and most athletic edge rusher. He plays on the weak side (non-tight end side) of the defense and usually goes against the opponent's left tackle. Chris Clemons and Cliff Avril have played this role for the Seahawks in the past. For the 49ers? Ahmad Brooks or Aaron Lynch probably fit best. A high-round rookie draft pick, say Texas A&M's Myles Garrett or Alabama's Tim Williams, would be far more ideal.

So it looks like: AA - Big Body - Buckner - Best Edge Rusher

But obviously, there could be a number of combinations in the works here esp. when you add in players like Lynch, Brooks, Harold, Blair, Jones, etc. Seattle typically lines their DE's out wide too to help in funneling the runs back inside and give them more room to beat their T's. The idea of Buckner at LDE on base downs and AA on pass rush downs was just an idea. Lynch is more natural on the left side and too fat for a LEO rusher (and not quick enough; I disagree with MB here).

I can see why Carroll says the players need to be extremely disciplined to run his defense. If Armstead is to play LDE with the LDT playing over center I can understand how he would be a good choice. But that makes it necessary to have a LOLB who can contain outside. Brooks and Lynch have played there and they are both still on the team, so I guess this is a reasonable approach. So Armstead would be doing what he has been doing while Buckner would have more help on the right side and be more free to attack...which would be playing to both players strengths. Then the matter of finding that NT/DT would be key. Not sure they have anyone better than Purcell and Davis as Dial seems to fit better backing up AA or DB.

I still like Buckner on the edge rushing. He's quick enough to worry the LT and strong enough to cut between the OG and LT. If they could play Blair with him and they could develop as J Smith and A Smith did with stunts it might be a really good combination.

Edit: would love to hear that the coaches are meeting with players, going over tape and selling them on their new roles! One on one.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I have to disagree on Lynch not being able to play the LEO. All he has to do is drop down to his proper playing weight of 265 - 270 and he can be that guy. I remember him coming off the edge against the Giants in 2015 and beat the LT on almost EVERY, SINGLE, PLAY with ease -- but no one else could get home, corners provided way too much cushion, and Eli Manning rocketed the ball out in less than two seconds (if I recall, I think they showed a graphic with it being something like 1.8 seconds), but Lynch was there or getting a hit on him almost every time. Just no one else was making a play.

From what I've seen from Lynch, if he's legitimately in shape, he could easily play either side in this system. Ideally, my depth chart would be:

LDE: Armstead, Rookie/FA
LDT: Dorsey, Rookie/FA
RDT: Buckner, Dial
RDE: Lynch, Blair

Of course, this is assuming guys like Harold and Carradine are cut or traded.

I'd like to see Brooks lose a few pounds to play LOLB. He is getting a bit old but if he and Lynch both lost weight I believe they would be really good at that position. I would rather see Blair at DE. I also will be excited to see if Harold, Hodges and Armstrong in this defense. Are they quick enough? Harold is, not sure about the other two.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

I can see why Carroll says the players need to be extremely disciplined to run his defense. If Armstead is to play LDE with the LDT playing over center I can understand how he would be a good choice. But that makes it necessary to have a LOLB who can contain outside. Brooks and Lynch have played there and they are both still on the team, so I guess this is a reasonable approach. So Armstead would be doing what he has been doing while Buckner would have more help on the right side and be more free to attack...which would be playing to both players strengths. Then the matter of finding that NT/DT would be key. Not sure they have anyone better than Purcell and Davis as Dial seems to fit better backing up AA or DB.

I still like Buckner on the edge rushing. He's quick enough to worry the LT and strong enough to cut between the OG and LT. If they could play Blair with him and they could develop as J Smith and A Smith did with stunts it might be a really good combination.

Edit: would love to hear that the coaches are meeting with players, going over tape and selling them on their new roles! One on one.

So true. Same concept as last year...when the DL was one gapping and flying up field, if they chose the wrong gap or overpursued or were blocked out, we were left watching Bellore, Wilhoite, Brock, Bethea, Reid, etc. trying to make tackles in the open field. No Bueno. Record breaking no bueno.

I certainly see your rationale for wanting Buckner on the end. Best thing is to match up our personnel with Seattle and their skill set to see who fits best where and project.

But that's not so easy. We need our own Bennett and Avril on the edges now.

Originally posted by NCommand:
OTC...absolutely love posts like this...thank you.

With $97M and top 2 picks, it's all about impact players...impact players...impact players!

Add a FQB, WR, C, ER & ILB to the current starters and we can be competitive quickly. Secondary needs are FB, NT & CB (free agency: DiMarco-Juszczyk-Williams-Poe-Bouye-Ryan).

The depth will still lack though no matter what so any injuries are really going to hamper us...again.

I think the defense can take some big steps this year with a few personnel changes and acquisitions...especially because of a more simplified scheme allowing for players to play more and think less.

Kyle will lay the WCO foundation and scheme the best he can with what we've got in year 1.

I think we'll have a bevy of "depth" (guys we'll keep around) with the exception of a handful of solid starters (Buckner, AA, Bowman, Ward, Staley, Brown, Hyde....). Having said that though, 5/6 solid starters in FA (2 or 3 on offense / 2 or 3 on defense) would dramatically change our status.

A Melvin Ingram, AJ Bouye and top FA for the Dline (those type of talents) would help more than some may believe. The draft will add depth and if we're fortunate, a day one starter / stud. Barring injuries, lame scheme and play calling, the additions can instantly turn a mediocre defense into a solid unit.

Add WR to help out Smith / Kerley (maybe Alshon)... TE Tamme or (Levine Toilolo if available) paired with Vance is a tremendous upgrade in comparison to Vance paired with anyone else on our roster. Throw in Davis or Williams from the draft to help out at WR (we'll be scary).

Hyde (and whoever we keep to back him up) can really use help from the draft (RB/FB). Cousins would be nice to have but I just doubt Skins let him go. A bridge QB / game manager with little upside will do for now while Shanny develops the rook. I like the idea of Beadles at center / Kilgore as depth.

The additions (real starters / 1st string guys) immediately gives us solid depth since the moving around of players who really aren't starting material can now relegate to their natural calling (BACK UPS)...

Originally posted by djgtek:
I say wild card this year and NFC Championship in year two

With a killer FA / draft (let's say we nail it), I would expect nothing shy of a .500 this season (sniffing wildcard isn't farfetched). Of course, bad play calling / schemes and bad officiating could play into it...

Lynch or brooks in a three point stance? No way. DE? No way.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
I'd like to see Brooks lose a few pounds to play LOLB.

So would I. As a Sam LB he would have to cover the TE most of the time so no. But, as a weak side linebacker maybe the occasional FB or RB out of the backfield would be ok and possibly be free to roam and make tackles and blitz. It would be awesome if he could handle it but that's extremely optimistic.

What do you guys think of Garcon?

San Francisco 49ers: Pierre Garcon, wide receiver

New Niners coach Kyle Shanahan found success bringing ex-players like Alex Mack and Taylor Gabriel with him to his offensive-coordinator gig in Atlanta. While there aren't many intriguing Falcons to grab in free agency, Garcon fits the bill as a dependable veteran who knows Shanahan's system from their days together in Washington. Garcon and Torrey Smith would comprise a solid starting duo for the 49ers' quarterback-to-be-named-later.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000787025/article/free-agency-a-fun-player-addition-for-each-nfc-team

Originally posted by 951NINER:

What do you guys think of Garcon?

San Francisco 49ers: Pierre Garcon, wide receiver

New Niners coach Kyle Shanahan found success bringing ex-players like Alex Mack and Taylor Gabriel with him to his offensive-coordinator gig in Atlanta. While there aren't many intriguing Falcons to grab in free agency, Garcon fits the bill as a dependable veteran who knows Shanahan's system from their days together in Washington. Garcon and Torrey Smith would comprise a solid starting duo for the 49ers' quarterback-to-be-named-later.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000787025/article/free-agency-a-fun-player-addition-for-each-nfc-team

I think if we added some other explosive pieces, Garcon would be a great addition. A good "move-the-chains" kind of guy, but hasn't been a major scoring threat for most of his career.

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by 951NINER:
What do you guys think of Garcon?

San Francisco 49ers: Pierre Garcon, wide receiver

New Niners coach Kyle Shanahan found success bringing ex-players like Alex Mack and Taylor Gabriel with him to his offensive-coordinator gig in Atlanta. While there aren't many intriguing Falcons to grab in free agency, Garcon fits the bill as a dependable veteran who knows Shanahan's system from their days together in Washington. Garcon and Torrey Smith would comprise a solid starting duo for the 49ers' quarterback-to-be-named-later.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000787025/article/free-agency-a-fun-player-addition-for-each-nfc-team

I think if we added some other explosive pieces, Garcon would be a great addition. A good "move-the-chains" kind of guy, but hasn't been a major scoring threat for most of his career.

Agreed....we need more of the traditional WCO ZWR's now...the bigger-bodied WR's like Kenny Britt to balance out Torrey at the XWR and Kerley at the Y. Garcon would be nice as an additional WR to play the X & Y and be that 4th WR (or beat out Torrey).

If we are to sign Garcon, it would be to replace T. Smith, not to be a 4th WR. I'm game for trading Smith to the Eagles for the best package we could get. Garcon is an upgrade over Smith, and if we brought in Britt as well, then our O would start having some weapons to play with. Hopefully we're able to draft a good WR to develop in round 2 or 3, that can be a major contributor in a year or two, most likely a Y WR, that would replace Kerley (assuming we resign him) in the starting lineup.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by OnTheClock:

Originally posted by 951NINER:

What do you guys think of Garcon?

San Francisco 49ers: Pierre Garcon, wide receiver

New Niners coach Kyle Shanahan found success bringing ex-players like Alex Mack and Taylor Gabriel with him to his offensive-coordinator gig in Atlanta. While there aren't many intriguing Falcons to grab in free agency, Garcon fits the bill as a dependable veteran who knows Shanahan's system from their days together in Washington. Garcon and Torrey Smith would comprise a solid starting duo for the 49ers' quarterback-to-be-named-later.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000787025/article/free-agency-a-fun-player-addition-for-each-nfc-team

I think if we added some other explosive pieces, Garcon would be a great addition. A good "move-the-chains" kind of guy, but hasn't been a major scoring threat for most of his career.

Agreed....we need more of the traditional WCO ZWR's now...the bigger-bodied WR's like Kenny Britt to balance out Torrey at the XWR and Kerley at the Y. Garcon would be nice as an additional WR to play the X & Y and be that 4th WR (or beat out Torrey).

What about Garçon working the slot?