Why didn't we counter against Giants defense (Belichick) better?

Just some thoughts now that people are talking up Belichick lately (and rightfully so)....

I read an article once that said that Belichick found the focus on disrupting our offense was to neutralize Brent Jones more than Rice, Taylor or Craig.....something like the "rhythm of the 49er offense ran through him".

We always had a harder time beating them than other '80s NFC juggernauts. It felt very much like modern Seattle against Harbaugh.

I don't believe the Giants drafted defensive players/tailored scheme with the 49ers in mind, but it's interesting.

Belichek>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Walsh

Wasn't alive during most of that rivalry so I couldn't tell ya.

When Belichek was with the Giants (79-90), we did hold a 9-5 record against them. They where just really good and had great pass rushers. As far as the TE goes, I know by the time Shanny was our OC we started to detach the TE from the formation and flexed him out wide more. Perhaps that was in response to how the Giants disrupted the TE position.

Bubba Paris couldn't block Leonard Marshall...

Belichick picks the right system and players that fit that system year after year. He is light years ahead of other NFL coaches. As for the rivalry with the Giants, it was a heavyweight brawl, we won some and lost some.

This is what Steve Young had to say about Beli's defense in NYG - Cover 2 Zone and zone blitzes. It was also that front 7 that made it work.
http://static.espn.go.com/nfl/s/westcoast/popularity.html

"The defense that gave us the most difficulty, however, was the New York Giants through the 1980s and the early 1990s under defensive coordinator Bill Belichick. The defense (generally a two-deep zone) wasn't tactically difficult, and we had the plays for it. But the Giants players -- Lawrence Taylor, Harry Carson, Carl Banks, Gary Reasons, Leonard Marshall, Pepper Johnson -- were together so long and ran it so well, they limited our explosiveness.

The Giants always had 11 eyeballs on the quarterback. They played zone, faced the quarterback, waited for me to throw the ball and tackled everything, forcing us to work our way down the field. No one was able to get free runs with the ball. Belichick also understood that he could affect the quarterback's timing if a defensive back got in the receiver's face.

Belichick's defense disrupted our timing much like Tony Dungy's, except Dungy added one more element -- Dom Capers' zone blitz. That was the defense I hated to see the most.

The late Fritz Shurmur, who was Green Bay's defensive coordinator from 1994-98, played a lot of zone and was tough and physical with the tight ends. Some of his players should have been arrested for how they mistreated our tight ends, particularly Brent Jones. But Shurmur knew he couldn't defend our offense unless he disrupted the timing."

Originally posted by thl408:

This is what Steve Young had to say about Beli's defense in NYG - Cover 2 Zone and zone blitzes. It was also that front 7 that made it work.
http://static.espn.go.com/nfl/s/westcoast/popularity.html

"The defense that gave us the most difficulty, however, was the New York Giants through the 1980s and the early 1990s under defensive coordinator Bill Belichick. The defense (generally a two-deep zone) wasn't tactically difficult, and we had the plays for it. But the Giants players -- Lawrence Taylor, Harry Carson, Carl Banks, Gary Reasons, Leonard Marshall, Pepper Johnson -- were together so long and ran it so well, they limited our explosiveness.

The Giants always had 11 eyeballs on the quarterback. They played zone, faced the quarterback, waited for me to throw the ball and tackled everything, forcing us to work our way down the field. No one was able to get free runs with the ball. Belichick also understood that he could affect the quarterback's timing if a defensive back got in the receiver's face.

Belichick's defense disrupted our timing much like Tony Dungy's, except Dungy added one more element -- Dom Capers' zone blitz. That was the defense I hated to see the most.

The late Fritz Shurmur, who was Green Bay's defensive coordinator from 1994-98, played a lot of zone and was tough and physical with the tight ends. Some of his players should have been arrested for how they mistreated our tight ends, particularly Brent Jones. But Shurmur knew he couldn't defend our offense unless he disrupted the timing."

Another thing that made the Giant a tough matchup was their style of offense. The were a big TOP offense that milked the clock and really pounded the ball. When they played us, they tried to shorten the game and limit our offense touches. It was a fun rivalry and tough matchups trying to move the ball against that defense. To this day, I still don't think I've seen a harder hitting game then the 1990 NFC title game.

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:
Just some thoughts now that people are talking up Belichick lately (and rightfully so)....

I read an article once that said that Belichick found the focus on disrupting our offense was to neutralize Brent Jones more than Rice, Taylor or Craig.....something like the "rhythm of the 49er offense ran through him".

We always had a harder time beating them than other '80s NFC juggernauts. It felt very much like modern Seattle against Harbaugh.

I don't believe the Giants drafted defensive players/tailored scheme with the 49ers in mind, but it's interesting.

You know what really helped NY beat SF? Walsh retiring! When Walsh and Jones were together they were 2-0 against the Giants. LOL! Belichick is so full of it...he loves to stir up stuff and tries to make good players from other teams seem less than they are. I'm sure they doubled Jones and left Rice one on one! Brent played a few years with Walsh as coach...1987-89.

Walsh's strategy wasn't to alter our offense to beat the opposing defense. We ran what we ran and it was up to them to stop it. And for the most part, it worked.

IT was well documented even back in the 80s that the way to DISRUPT the West Coast Offense is to have that SUDDEN BURST OF PRESSURE up the gut..

After the 1st game back in 1981 (vs Dallas) where Too Tall Jones repeatedly said that the Cowboys did not play any different nor a new scheme, but was thrashed by the 49ers, due to the fact that "they were getting rid of the ball too damn quick .. by the time I was making a move on the OL, Joe had already gotten rid of the ball for a quick 7 yards"...

Then OL coach (RIP) Bob McKittrick used OL who were more athletic (smaller) than big and powerful and Joe Gibbs was the one who first realized that the way to disrupt our offense was up the middle.. blitz, or just power up the middle because Ayers, Quillan (RIP) and Cross were not that strong..

Since then both the Forrest Gregg (Bengals and later Green Bay) along with the Rams and Fitz Shurmur would design a scheme to attack us from the inside..

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:
Just some thoughts now that people are talking up Belichick lately (and rightfully so)....

I read an article once that said that Belichick found the focus on disrupting our offense was to neutralize Brent Jones more than Rice, Taylor or Craig.....something like the "rhythm of the 49er offense ran through him".

We always had a harder time beating them than other '80s NFC juggernauts. It felt very much like modern Seattle against Harbaugh.

I don't believe the Giants drafted defensive players/tailored scheme with the 49ers in mind, but it's interesting.

You know what really helped NY beat SF? Walsh retiring! When Walsh and Jones were together they were 2-0 against the Giants. LOL! Belichick is so full of it...he loves to stir up stuff and tries to make good players from other teams seem less than they are. I'm sure they doubled Jones and left Rice one on one! Brent played a few years with Walsh as coach...1987-89.

Walsh and Jones were really never together.. together as in, Jones was only an under study .. the TEs under Walsh were JOHN FRANK, RON HELLER and JAMIE WILLIAMS.. Brent Jones was a special team player only and only got the starting job when John Frank retired after Super Bowl 23 (vs the Bengals) because he wanted to be a DOCTOR..

Jones became a starter under Casanova Seifert !!!

Originally posted by 9moon:
Walsh and Jones were really never together.. together as in, Jones was only an under study .. the TEs under Walsh were JOHN FRANK, RON HELLER and JAMIE WILLIAMS.. Brent Jones was a special team player only and only got the starting job when John Frank retired after Super Bowl 23 (vs the Bengals) because he wanted to be a DOCTOR..

Jones became a starter under Casanova Seifert !!!

Point stands...and Belichick remains a pot stirrer! LOL! Jones did play during those years but had minimal impact...although he had two TDs in eight catches in 1988.

Originally posted by thl408:
This is what Steve Young had to say about Beli's defense in NYG - Cover 2 Zone and zone blitzes. It was also that front 7 that made it work.
http://static.espn.go.com/nfl/s/westcoast/popularity.html

"The defense that gave us the most difficulty, however, was the New York Giants through the 1980s and the early 1990s under defensive coordinator Bill Belichick. The defense (generally a two-deep zone) wasn't tactically difficult, and we had the plays for it. But the Giants players -- Lawrence Taylor, Harry Carson, Carl Banks, Gary Reasons, Leonard Marshall, Pepper Johnson -- were together so long and ran it so well, they limited our explosiveness.

The Giants always had 11 eyeballs on the quarterback. They played zone, faced the quarterback, waited for me to throw the ball and tackled everything, forcing us to work our way down the field. No one was able to get free runs with the ball. Belichick also understood that he could affect the quarterback's timing if a defensive back got in the receiver's face.

Belichick's defense disrupted our timing much like Tony Dungy's, except Dungy added one more element -- Dom Capers' zone blitz. That was the defense I hated to see the most.

The late Fritz Shurmur, who was Green Bay's defensive coordinator from 1994-98, played a lot of zone and was tough and physical with the tight ends. Some of his players should have been arrested for how they mistreated our tight ends, particularly Brent Jones. But Shurmur knew he couldn't defend our offense unless he disrupted the timing."

Great article!

This was in the sidebar.....hmmm, maybe it answers my OP:

"OL: 1993 Cowboys
The 49ers had smaller, versatile linemen for the trapping running game that Walsh preferred in the '80s. But our light offensive line hurt us in the '90s. A big, physical dominant pass-protecting offensive line is what the West Coast needs. When Kevin Gogan played for us, he really made a difference in the passing game because he just got in the way. I would go with the Cowboys' offensive line of around 1993, with Gogan, Nate Newton, Mark Tuinei, Erik Williams and Mark Stepnoski. Now that was a West Coast group, although they ran a different attack under Norv Turner.
" - Steve Young