2012 vs. 2015 Rosters - Are we REALLY in much trouble at all personnel-wise?

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by susweel:
thats coming from one of the best talent evaluators on this site.

MadDog is a very very good college talent evaluator and at building accurate draft boards. But what he doesn't do is evaluate how that talent is expected to fit into specific schemes in the NFL or projections (for the most part). For instance, some players like JJ Watt will most likely excel in any scheme (3-4, 4-3, etc.). His talent is easier to evaluate overall. But a guy like AA (while not as talented at JJ overall) may only fit best as 4-5-tech DE in a 3-4...which, fortunately for us, is exactly what we run here and should be a very smooth transition with a very high ceiling.

i am sure somewhere along the way sus has ripped the dog for some of his evaluations,,,, sort of like Tim K ripping a former coach for four years and now all of a sudden he is his best bud

lol once again you are grossly mistakened Maddog is the truth. The man correctly called for us to draft JJ Watt over Aldon, also among other good players he wanted up to draft.

Maddog >>>> Baalke

A lot of people have a never seen anything like it turnover in personnel wise-but the very team that beat us in the SB, the ravens lost more playing experience on D but manage to come out competitive.

It is just the lost of coaching staff all the experience leaving mixed with some surprises in Borland and Davis have confounded people to the point that they think there is a conspiracy like situation.

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by susweel:
thats coming from one of the best talent evaluators on this site.

MadDog is a very very good college talent evaluator and at building accurate draft boards. But what he doesn't do is evaluate how that talent is expected to fit into specific schemes in the NFL or projections (for the most part). For instance, some players like JJ Watt will most likely excel in any scheme (3-4, 4-3, etc.). His talent is easier to evaluate overall. But a guy like AA (while not as talented at JJ overall) may only fit best as 4-5-tech DE in a 3-4...which, fortunately for us, is exactly what we run here and should be a very smooth transition with a very high ceiling.

i am sure somewhere along the way sus has ripped the dog for some of his evaluations,,,, sort of like Tim K ripping a former coach for four years and now all of a sudden he is his best bud

lol once again you are grossly mistakened Maddog is the truth. The man correctly called for us to draft JJ Watt over Aldon, also among other good players he wanted up to draft.

Maddog >>>> Baalke

there is nothing wrong with us drafting aldon. do you like anything about anything?

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by susweel:
thats coming from one of the best talent evaluators on this site.

MadDog is a very very good college talent evaluator and at building accurate draft boards. But what he doesn't do is evaluate how that talent is expected to fit into specific schemes in the NFL or projections (for the most part). For instance, some players like JJ Watt will most likely excel in any scheme (3-4, 4-3, etc.). His talent is easier to evaluate overall. But a guy like AA (while not as talented at JJ overall) may only fit best as 4-5-tech DE in a 3-4...which, fortunately for us, is exactly what we run here and should be a very smooth transition with a very high ceiling.

i am sure somewhere along the way sus has ripped the dog for some of his evaluations,,,, sort of like Tim K ripping a former coach for four years and now all of a sudden he is his best bud

lol once again you are grossly mistakened Maddog is the truth. The man correctly called for us to draft JJ Watt over Aldon, also among other good players he wanted up to draft.

Maddog >>>> Baalke

there is nothing wrong with us drafting aldon. do you like anything about anything?

this is not about me. THE TEAM, THE TEAM, THE TEAM

Originally posted by WildBill:
A lot of people have a never seen anything like it turnover in personnel wise-but the very team that beat us in the SB, the ravens lost more playing experience on D but manage to come out competitive.

It is just the lost of coaching staff all the experience leaving mixed with some surprises in Borland and Davis have confounded people to the point that they think there is a conspiracy like situation.

Truth. It's the closest to our situation this year.

But they had already replaced their OC with a very good one (Gary Kubiak - big loss for them now) and then brought in a ZBS scheme and they were off and running...literally.

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by susweel:
thats coming from one of the best talent evaluators on this site.

MadDog is a very very good college talent evaluator and at building accurate draft boards. But what he doesn't do is evaluate how that talent is expected to fit into specific schemes in the NFL or projections (for the most part). For instance, some players like JJ Watt will most likely excel in any scheme (3-4, 4-3, etc.). His talent is easier to evaluate overall. But a guy like AA (while not as talented at JJ overall) may only fit best as 4-5-tech DE in a 3-4...which, fortunately for us, is exactly what we run here and should be a very smooth transition with a very high ceiling.

i am sure somewhere along the way sus has ripped the dog for some of his evaluations,,,, sort of like Tim K ripping a former coach for four years and now all of a sudden he is his best bud

lol once again you are grossly mistakened Maddog is the truth. The man correctly called for us to draft JJ Watt over Aldon, also among other good players he wanted up to draft.

Maddog >>>> Baalke

there is nothing wrong with us drafting aldon. do you like anything about anything?

this is not about me. THE TEAM, THE TEAM, THE TEAM

Exactly-team. The team and Fangio's style of 3-4 relies on the OLB making the plays. Maddog's rating of players are great, but NEED to consider the scheme. Daryle Lemonica would never fit in a Bill Walsh run QB scheme. Not saying that Watt's would not have been great with us, but with Smith and McD at the time we were set.

Hind sight being 20/20-Aldon had no emotional baggage coming out, he would be far more greater if he didn't act up. Based on that, the niners would have had a better return with Watts, but we still would need a rush olb which is not easy to come by.

I guess the differences that I see are:

1. The 2012 Kap was a novelty to the league. He needs to be better than his '12 version this year to take this team to the next level.
2. RB1 - Gore in 2012 was great. Hyde is still an unknown, but probably an upgrade over the 2015 version of Frank Gore.
3. The guys that are returning from 2012 are now three years older. That is an eternity in the NFL. So guys in their primes in 2012 are now potentially past their primes.
4. 2012 had Fangio and a very good defensive staff. Too early to tell with the new group, but it won't necessarily be a talent issue - can the coaches mask our weaknesses as good as Fangio did?
5. Depth. This is a big unknown, as one of our best assets in 2012 was having many of our now-starters still on the bench. Will our current bench be as talented?
6. OLine - To me this is the biggest question mark of our entire team, talent wise. Can we replace both first rounders Iupati and A. Davis? I like the guys we have in camp but there are a lot of question marks at three of the five OL positions.

If you have to ask, you already know the answer.

We're not as good as our 2012/13 team that went to the SB, some players have regressed, namely Staley, Vernon. Plus I have zero faith in our pass defense, I see nothing in Brock, he hasn't earned the #1 CB spot in my eyes. DJ, and the young guys are unknowns. Cook and Wright have been horrible in their previous teams, so I'm not expecting greatness from either.

Depth wise, I think we have good depth, but a lot of young guys who haven't proven anything, like Tank Carradine, he needs to step up, if he isn't starting at DE this year, or rotating, then that 2nd rd pick was a waste of a pick by Baalke. I swear if TJE is starting that shows right there that Carradine can't even beat an UDFA out. And if he isn't active that tells me Baalke needs to readjust his thinking of when it comes to drafting tweeners, and these damn All ACL team players, sick of it.

I think we have the potential to be a playoff team, but the players need to buy into Tomsula, and his staff, which is a downgrade IMO from Harbaugh and his staff.

This is a make or break year for several guys, Tank being one of them, and yes Kap needs to improve, or he could be let go next offseason, without a big dead money hit.

Originally posted by VANiner:
A lot of media and general Webzone discussion has focused on the amount of turnover from our Superbowl squad from 2012 to the current roster. I have been defending the state of the team in the sense that Baalke had a plan in place and either sought timely replacements for players or already had the replacements waiting as depth on the squad. That said, I really hadn't looked at the starters from the 2012 roster position by position and compared them to our current projected starters. Here is a side by side comparison of the starters and a few noteworthy back-ups with some notes thrown in (Note: I bolded areas where I see us upgraded are having a new starter that is not a drop off from previous. I italicized positions where there is potential to have an upgrade, but time will tell:

2012 Offensive 2015 Projected
QB - Kaepernick QB - Kaepernick (Note: No change here and very well might have made significant strides this offseason)
RB1 - Gore RB1 - Hyde (Hyde was arguably the best RB in the draft last year and was specifically picked as Gore's replacement)
RB2 - Hunter RB2 - Bush (Reggie was brought in to bring back the screen and short passing game, which has been missing)
RB3 - James RB3 - Hunter (Our back-up from 2012 is now our number 3. Sounds good to me)
FB - Miller FB - Miller (Might be pushed by Millard in TC, but still a solid FB)
WR1 - Crabtree WR1 - Smith (Finally a deep threat as our primary / Crabtree never amounted to his potential with us)
WR2 - Moss WR-2 Boldin (Could argue AB is our number one / Much stronger over middle and true leader of the team)
TE - Davis TE - Davis (No change here, but hopefully Davis regains his 2012 form)
LT - Staley LT - Staley (No change on most important position on the OL)
RT - Davis RT - ?? (Only true hole that I see that needs to be determined in TC)
LG - Iupati LG - Thomas (He was drafted last year as a red shirt because Baalke knew Iupati would not be back)
RG - Boone RG - Boone (Could move out to tackle and make me feel better about the line as a whole)
C - Goodwin C - Kilgore (He was the backup in 2012 and was waiting in the wings - Martin could also push for this spot in TC)

2012 Defense 2015 Projected
RDE - Smith RDE - Dockett (Big loss with Justin, but Dockett is a seasoned vet and Smith was no longer in 2012 form)
LDE - McDonald LDE - Carradine/Dial (RayMac simply had to go and there is really not much drop here in my opinion)
NT - Sopagoa NT - Dorsey/Williams (Again, no drop off here. Really an upgrade)
ILB - Willis ILB - Wilhoite (You can't replace HOF talent, but Wilhoite was on the PC in 2012 and was a waiting replacement)
ILB - Bowman ILB - Bowman (All reports are that he is returning to form)
OLB - Smith OLB - Smith (Faster, stronger and unstoppable according to him...could be in for a big year)
OLB - Brooks OLB - Brooks/Lynch (Lynch might take this spot and make big strides this year)
FS - Goldson FS - Reid (Reid is a better player and much less of a liability. Only worry is the concussion issue)
SS - Whitner SS - Bethea (Pro Bowl year, better in coverage and less of a liability)
CB - Rogers CB - Brock (Would you really say you would rather have Rogers than a healthy Brock?)
CB - Brown CB - Wright/Johnson/Acker/Reaser (Excited to see who wins this battle. Again, is this a drop off?

P - Lee P - Pinion (Hated to see Lee go, but I'm not getting too worried over the punter. Pinion might be a find)
K - Akers K - Dawson (Dawson is better. Older and likely gone after this year, but still better)

When I look at this position by position, I cannot see how there is SO much negativity about this roster. In 2012, we were considered one of the , if not the most, talented rosters in the league. Turn over happens. I like what I see.

The biggest changes in my opinion are the coaching changes. This is the one thing I do not know about and we will have to wait until the results are shown on the field. I like what I am hearing so far, but time will tell. All in all, I feel pretty good with where this team is at roster-wise. Baalke did not miss a beat and has either sought worthy replacements or had the replacements waiting on the roster. That is a good GM if you ask me.

I tend to agree with many of the above points (outlooks). Though, the one thing that is definitely improved is our competition. In 2012 the NFC west was an UP and coming conference. After the last 2 years the Seahawks are still the team to beat, the cards are a better team and continue to improve, and the Rams are a solid team getting better and even when they were a struggling team they knew how to play the niners.. Either way this year will be a dog fight and so long as we stay relatively healthy there is no reason to believe we cannot be successful!

Originally posted by AB81Rules:
We're not as good as our 2012/13 team that went to the SB, some players have regressed, namely Staley, Vernon. Plus I have zero faith in our pass defense, I see nothing in Brock, he hasn't earned the #1 CB spot in my eyes. DJ, and the young guys are unknowns. Cook and Wright have been horrible in their previous teams, so I'm not expecting greatness from either.

Depth wise, I think we have good depth, but a lot of young guys who haven't proven anything, like Tank Carradine, he needs to step up, if he isn't starting at DE this year, or rotating, then that 2nd rd pick was a waste of a pick by Baalke. I swear if TJE is starting that shows right there that Carradine can't even beat an UDFA out. And if he isn't active that tells me Baalke needs to readjust his thinking of when it comes to drafting tweeners, and these damn All ACL team players, sick of it.

I think we have the potential to be a playoff team, but the players need to buy into Tomsula, and his staff, which is a downgrade IMO from Harbaugh and his staff.

This is a make or break year for several guys, Tank being one of them, and yes Kap needs to improve, or he could be let go next offseason, without a big dead money hit.

Seems fair to me...it's really going to come down to players finally getting their chances and shining and developing. Coaching and scheme will play very significant roles this year as we transition into the new era of 49er football.

This whole season depends on Bowman's knee and if Aldon is back to form

Originally posted by 9er2k:

This whole season depends on Bowman's knee and if Aldon is back to form

Kap tho

Originally posted by 9er2k:
This whole season depends on Bowman's knee and if Aldon is back to form

gotta score points, four points a game in the second half of games will not get it done, 30 second drives will wear out any defense

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
The answer is your question is: Most likely we are in trouble personnel-wise. Three years ago, we had numerous guys who were Pro-Bowlers. Outside of Bowman, and maybe Stanley, I don't see a lot of guys.

Can some of the young guys play at a high level, and fill-in the gaps on where we lost valuable talent. Sure. Is it likely that a large cluster will? Call me a skeptic. We just haven't seen it yet.

Lot of holes that will need to be filled over the next few years. I see this team right now as a 6-10 team at best.

So this.

thats coming from one of the best talent evaluators on this site.

well we had a plethora of pro bowlers on the team last season and we only went 8-8. with jim harbaugh, the greatest coach to ever grace this earth.

meanwhile in dallas, they were supposed to be a historically bad team, but somehow they made it to the divisional round of the playoffs.

we aren't gonna know how this new group of 49ers fare until the season starts.