2012 vs. 2015 Rosters - Are we REALLY in much trouble at all personnel-wise?

Very true. Ol is worse and one ilb spot. Maybe 2nd cb but not proven yet. Pass rush may be better bc dockett and tank are better pass rushers than cowboy and raymac. Our run d will be worse but not by much.

This roster is definitely playoff worthy and you know our offense will be better at 2nd half adjustments, second half poi td and a 4th quarter td by the starters away from being a better 4th quarter offense.

So offense is better but d takes a small step back run d wise but a step forward pass rush

Talent-wise? It's esp. hard to compare this year to 2012 as the NFL had no idea how to combat us. You guys are talking about talent and I'm going to talk about scheme.

In 2012 we were built for a power run game with the aforementioned and Gore in a league that ignored the DL position to move to a more passing league and paid top dollars for the DB's. Our 3-4 yards and a cloud of dust caught the DC's off guard. Teams esp. in our division started to gear up on DL after that. In 2012, we made a switch from Alex (conservative passing game coupled with power run and stellar, disciplined defense with HOF players) to CK (totally unknown, dynamic runner and canon-arm, ad-libber, etc. to ADD to the ground game and stellar defense). Harbaugh and his winning philosophy could not have been more impeccable...odd pre-snap shifts, lots of personnel groupings, using extra OL as two extra blockers, etc.

I'd personally compare our personnel to that of the Ravens the year after they won the Superbowl and transitioned (retooled) to their current personnel, of which, made the playoffs last year.

That said, I think Baalke has actually done a better job thinking 1-2-3 years out to prepare for this inevitable period (HOFers beaten up and worn down, retiring, moving on for much lesser roles, signing big final contracts, etc.). This was just a natural transition but it happened in one off season (like the Ravens).

We do not lack in talent...never have. That was most proven last year with 19 players ending the year on I.R. We saw what one injury and a few dinged up players on the Seahawks did to the legion-of-doom in the Superbowl.

This team NOW is all about coaching, development and #'s (adding as much talent to key positions such as the OL, CB, S, ILB, DL, WR, FB, RB, etc. and may the best ones win out). It's also a very diverse personnel (Hyde, Bush, Hunter, Miller, Millard, 6'2" CB's, or experience in Wright-Brock, or youth and speed like Acker, Reaser, Tartt, Ward, WR's (speed, size, possession, etc.)...mostly experienced youth (average age of 25 with 4 years of experience) coupled with some excellent veterans and leaders.

The scheme ideas should be much less predictable as well in 2015...everyone and their mother had the book on the HaRoman offense. It was cooked. So from that standpoint, the new scheme of a ZBS, short passing game installed to compliment the deep threats, etc. should have a similar effect that 2012 did on the NFL. As to defense, the added focus on game planning, attacking weaknesses, diversity of personnel and creating pre and post-snap confusion for QB's and OC's should be a winning formula for us now too.

Talent was never the issue here...never was (even before Harbaugh) and it certainly isn't now. If this coaching staff can continue to develop the young guys and get them moving in one direction and our OC and DC can win the chess matches, this could be a very very dangerous team. The fact that we have attacked every single one of our shortcomings should be a VERY encouraging and exciting thing for fans.

Addressing something as simple as better play clock management or installing a shorter check-down game or utilizing RB's as primary targets could have made a HUGE difference for us last year IMHO even with an 8-8 record and all those injuries.

Agreed. Bigtime. With all those significant injuries and we were still 8-8. That's ridiculous. The hawks couldn't come that close with significant injuries like the niners had so talent was indeed not the reason. However if that talent was on the field or at least most of it, 12-4 or 11-5 seemed easy. (Chi ariz stl sd were easy wins if relitively healthy).

As long as we have better clock management and actually make second half adjustments we are going to be a superior team again. Hell, averaging what.....4 points in the second half? Is that a joke? No 4th quarter tds by starting unit? Is that a typo? That is inexcusable for roman and harbaugh and for those simple reasons, I think if the niners address those simple issues, offense is top 15 easy and if the defense slips to top 10, we are easily a 10 win team and playoff bound. Torrey smith and bush will definitely help as well as kap running a bit more.

Everyone look forward to a very good season. At worst, if the whole dam team gets injured again maybe another 7-8 win season

lol improved

Originally posted by MadDog49er:

The answer is your question is: Most likely we are in trouble personnel-wise. Three years ago, we had numerous guys who were Pro-Bowlers. Outside of Bowman, and maybe Stanley, I don't see a lot of guys.

Can some of the young guys play at a high level, and fill-in the gaps on where we lost valuable talent. Sure. Is it likely that a large cluster will? Call me a skeptic. We just haven't seen it yet.

Lot of holes that will need to be filled over the next few years. I see this team right now as a 6-10 team at best.

So this.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Talent-wise? It's esp. hard to compare this year to 2012 as the NFL had no idea how to combat us. You guys are talking about talent and I'm going to talk about scheme.

In 2012 we were built for a power run game with the aforementioned and Gore in a league that ignored the DL position to move to a more passing league and paid top dollars for the DB's. Our 3-4 yards and a cloud of dust caught the DC's off guard. Teams esp. in our division started to gear up on DL after that. In 2012, we made a switch from Alex (conservative passing game coupled with power run and stellar, disciplined defense with HOF players) to CK (totally unknown, dynamic runner and canon-arm, ad-libber, etc. to ADD to the ground game and stellar defense). Harbaugh and his winning philosophy could not have been more impeccable...odd pre-snap shifts, lots of personnel groupings, using extra OL as two extra blockers, etc.

I'd personally compare our personnel to that of the Ravens the year after they won the Superbowl and transitioned (retooled) to their current personnel, of which, made the playoffs last year.

That said, I think Baalke has actually done a better job thinking 1-2-3 years out to prepare for this inevitable period (HOFers beaten up and worn down, retiring, moving on for much lesser roles, signing big final contracts, etc.). This was just a natural transition but it happened in one off season (like the Ravens).

We do not lack in talent...never have. That was most proven last year with 19 players ending the year on I.R. We saw what one injury and a few dinged up players on the Seahawks did to the legion-of-doom in the Superbowl.

This team NOW is all about coaching, development and #'s (adding as much talent to key positions such as the OL, CB, S, ILB, DL, WR, FB, RB, etc. and may the best ones win out). It's also a very diverse personnel (Hyde, Bush, Hunter, Miller, Millard, 6'2" CB's, or experience in Wright-Brock, or youth and speed like Acker, Reaser, Tartt, Ward, WR's (speed, size, possession, etc.)...mostly experienced youth (average age of 25 with 4 years of experience) coupled with some excellent veterans and leaders.

The scheme ideas should be much less predictable as well in 2015...everyone and their mother had the book on the HaRoman offense. It was cooked. So from that standpoint, the new scheme of a ZBS, short passing game installed to compliment the deep threats, etc. should have a similar effect that 2012 did on the NFL. As to defense, the added focus on game planning, attacking weaknesses, diversity of personnel and creating pre and post-snap confusion for QB's and OC's should be a winning formula for us now too.

Talent was never the issue here...never was (even before Harbaugh) and it certainly isn't now. If this coaching staff can continue to develop the young guys and get them moving in one direction and our OC and DC can win the chess matches, this could be a very very dangerous team. The fact that we have attacked every single one of our shortcomings should be a VERY encouraging and exciting thing for fans.

Addressing something as simple as better play clock management or installing a shorter check-down game or utilizing RB's as primary targets could have made a HUGE difference for us last year IMHO even with an 8-8 record and all those injuries.

I agree about talent never being the issue.

HOWEVER...

I think this is the first time in 3 years that the talent MATCHES the scheme to a T.

There are scheme prototypes at almost every spot on the offense and defense which there weren't in past years to this magnitude.

Armstead
Dial
Williams
Harold
Lynch
Smith
Brooks
Bowman
Reid
Johnson
etc

Just examples of the perfect fits for this scheme. Don't think we could say that with as many players in past years even though we were still talented.

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
The answer is your question is: Most likely we are in trouble personnel-wise. Three years ago, we had numerous guys who were Pro-Bowlers. Outside of Bowman, and maybe Stanley, I don't see a lot of guys.

Can some of the young guys play at a high level, and fill-in the gaps on where we lost valuable talent. Sure. Is it likely that a large cluster will? Call me a skeptic. We just haven't seen it yet.

Lot of holes that will need to be filled over the next few years. I see this team right now as a 6-10 team at best.

So this.

i love the dog and respect him very much, but this team is going to win more than six games in my opinion, if i am wrong, i will be the first to step up and will have no problem doing so. i just do not think i will have to. we had some guys who were pro bowlers but did not play like pro bowlers last year. i think with the guys they have and the reports we have seen so far,, i think, for one example,,, the team is well on their way to fill any hole left by gore,, running, catching, blocking, team leader etc

Originally posted by reasonable1:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Talent-wise? It's esp. hard to compare this year to 2012 as the NFL had no idea how to combat us. You guys are talking about talent and I'm going to talk about scheme.

In 2012 we were built for a power run game with the aforementioned and Gore in a league that ignored the DL position to move to a more passing league and paid top dollars for the DB's. Our 3-4 yards and a cloud of dust caught the DC's off guard. Teams esp. in our division started to gear up on DL after that. In 2012, we made a switch from Alex (conservative passing game coupled with power run and stellar, disciplined defense with HOF players) to CK (totally unknown, dynamic runner and canon-arm, ad-libber, etc. to ADD to the ground game and stellar defense). Harbaugh and his winning philosophy could not have been more impeccable...odd pre-snap shifts, lots of personnel groupings, using extra OL as two extra blockers, etc.

I'd personally compare our personnel to that of the Ravens the year after they won the Superbowl and transitioned (retooled) to their current personnel, of which, made the playoffs last year.

That said, I think Baalke has actually done a better job thinking 1-2-3 years out to prepare for this inevitable period (HOFers beaten up and worn down, retiring, moving on for much lesser roles, signing big final contracts, etc.). This was just a natural transition but it happened in one off season (like the Ravens).

We do not lack in talent...never have. That was most proven last year with 19 players ending the year on I.R. We saw what one injury and a few dinged up players on the Seahawks did to the legion-of-doom in the Superbowl.

This team NOW is all about coaching, development and #'s (adding as much talent to key positions such as the OL, CB, S, ILB, DL, WR, FB, RB, etc. and may the best ones win out). It's also a very diverse personnel (Hyde, Bush, Hunter, Miller, Millard, 6'2" CB's, or experience in Wright-Brock, or youth and speed like Acker, Reaser, Tartt, Ward, WR's (speed, size, possession, etc.)...mostly experienced youth (average age of 25 with 4 years of experience) coupled with some excellent veterans and leaders.

The scheme ideas should be much less predictable as well in 2015...everyone and their mother had the book on the HaRoman offense. It was cooked. So from that standpoint, the new scheme of a ZBS, short passing game installed to compliment the deep threats, etc. should have a similar effect that 2012 did on the NFL. As to defense, the added focus on game planning, attacking weaknesses, diversity of personnel and creating pre and post-snap confusion for QB's and OC's should be a winning formula for us now too.

Talent was never the issue here...never was (even before Harbaugh) and it certainly isn't now. If this coaching staff can continue to develop the young guys and get them moving in one direction and our OC and DC can win the chess matches, this could be a very very dangerous team. The fact that we have attacked every single one of our shortcomings should be a VERY encouraging and exciting thing for fans.

Addressing something as simple as better play clock management or installing a shorter check-down game or utilizing RB's as primary targets could have made a HUGE difference for us last year IMHO even with an 8-8 record and all those injuries.

I agree about talent never being the issue.

HOWEVER...

I think this is the first time in 3 years that the talent MATCHES the scheme to a T.

There are scheme prototypes at almost every spot on the offense and defense which there weren't in past years to this magnitude.

Armstead
Dial
Williams
Harold
Lynch
Smith
Brooks
Bowman
Reid
Johnson
etc

Just examples of the perfect fits for this scheme. Don't think we could say that with as many players in past years even though we were still talented.

You just took it to the next level and I appreciate that! Thank you.

It's almost like you can now break down your philosophies and match up the players now (i.e. Logan: wants a driven, intelligent, hard-working QB who is athletic and mobile ad accurate = Colin Kaepernick)

Eric Mangini for Vic Fangio - Defensive Coordinator (Retained)
Mick Lombardi - Defensive Assistant (Retained)
Jason Tarver for Jim Leavitt - Linebackers Coach/Sr. Defensive Assistant
Clancy Pendegrast - Inside Linebackers Coach
Tim Lewis for Ed Donatell - Secondary Coach
Ejiro Evero for Greg Jackson - Assistant Secondary Coach/Defensive Assistant (Retained)
Scott Brown for Jim Tomsula - Defensive Line Coach
Aubrayo Franklin - Defensive Assistant/Entry Level

Geep Chryst for Greg Roman - Offensive Coordinator (Retained)
Steve Logan for Geep Chryst - Quarterbacks Coach
Tom Rathman - Running Backs Coach (Retained)
Chris Foerster for Mike Solari - Offensive Line Coach
Eric Wolford - Offensive Line Assistant
Tony Sparano for Eric Mangini - Tight Ends Coach
Ronald Curry for John Morton - Wide Receivers Coach/Offensive Assistant (Retained)
Adam Henry - Wide Receivers Coach
D.J. Boldin - Offensive Assistant (Retained)

Thomas McGaughey for Brad Seely - Special Teams Coordinator
Richard Hightower for Tracy Smith - Special Teams Assistant


Logan: I'd like a smart, hard-working mobile and athletic QB - Colin Kapernick

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
The answer is your question is: Most likely we are in trouble personnel-wise. Three years ago, we had numerous guys who were Pro-Bowlers. Outside of Bowman, and maybe Stanley, I don't see a lot of guys.

Can some of the young guys play at a high level, and fill-in the gaps on where we lost valuable talent. Sure. Is it likely that a large cluster will? Call me a skeptic. We just haven't seen it yet.

Lot of holes that will need to be filled over the next few years. I see this team right now as a 6-10 team at best.

So this.

thats coming from one of the best talent evaluators on this site.

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
The answer is your question is: Most likely we are in trouble personnel-wise. Three years ago, we had numerous guys who were Pro-Bowlers. Outside of Bowman, and maybe Stanley, I don't see a lot of guys.

Can some of the young guys play at a high level, and fill-in the gaps on where we lost valuable talent. Sure. Is it likely that a large cluster will? Call me a skeptic. We just haven't seen it yet.

Lot of holes that will need to be filled over the next few years. I see this team right now as a 6-10 team at best.

So this.

thats coming from one of the best talent evaluators on this site.

he is, no doubt,, but this group of players and coaches seem to be fitting better together in a mini camp than they did all of last year and that is one reason we will be better than a six win team as the dream team eagles found out and as the redskins find out every year, its about the right people not the best with the brightest ribbons and bows on them

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
The answer is your question is: Most likely we are in trouble personnel-wise. Three years ago, we had numerous guys who were Pro-Bowlers. Outside of Bowman, and maybe Stanley, I don't see a lot of guys.

Can some of the young guys play at a high level, and fill-in the gaps on where we lost valuable talent. Sure. Is it likely that a large cluster will? Call me a skeptic. We just haven't seen it yet.

Lot of holes that will need to be filled over the next few years. I see this team right now as a 6-10 team at best.

So this.

thats coming from one of the best talent evaluators on this site.

he is, no doubt,, but this group of players and coaches seem to be fitting better together in a mini camp than they did all of last year and that is one reason we will be better than a six win team as the dream team eagles found out and as the redskins find out every year, its about the right people not the best with the brightest ribbons and bows on them

thats really important lol. got news for you cc you dont have to like each other win football games.

Originally posted by susweel:
thats coming from one of the best talent evaluators on this site.

MadDog is a very very good college talent evaluator and at building accurate draft boards. But what he doesn't do is evaluate how that talent is expected to fit into specific schemes in the NFL or projections (for the most part). For instance, some players like JJ Watt will most likely excel in any scheme (3-4, 4-3, etc.). His talent is easier to evaluate overall. But a guy like AA (while not as talented at JJ overall) may only fit best as 4-5-tech DE in a 3-4...which, fortunately for us, is exactly what we run here and should be a very smooth transition with a very high ceiling.

seriously, we are not in that bad of shape. We have some question marks on the Offensive line but everywhere else looks to be good.We went into 2012 with this same mentality and we were arguably the best team in 2012

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by susweel:

Originally posted by verb1der:

Originally posted by MadDog49er:
The answer is your question is: Most likely we are in trouble personnel-wise. Three years ago, we had numerous guys who were Pro-Bowlers. Outside of Bowman, and maybe Stanley, I don't see a lot of guys.

Can some of the young guys play at a high level, and fill-in the gaps on where we lost valuable talent. Sure. Is it likely that a large cluster will? Call me a skeptic. We just haven't seen it yet.

Lot of holes that will need to be filled over the next few years. I see this team right now as a 6-10 team at best.

So this.

thats coming from one of the best talent evaluators on this site.

he is, no doubt,, but this group of players and coaches seem to be fitting better together in a mini camp than they did all of last year and that is one reason we will be better than a six win team as the dream team eagles found out and as the redskins find out every year, its about the right people not the best with the brightest ribbons and bows on them

thats really important lol. got news for you cc you dont have to like each other win football games.

you underestimate the value of team chemistry,,, plus i am pretty sure we know how much your head would be blowing up if there were a bunch of reports of players and coaches not getting along in camp . just because you are opposing changes in our team in regards to players and coaches does not mean the players are. i know that makes you upset they are not following your lead of gloom and doom but sobeit

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by susweel:
thats coming from one of the best talent evaluators on this site.

MadDog is a very very good college talent evaluator and at building accurate draft boards. But what he doesn't do is evaluate how that talent is expected to fit into specific schemes in the NFL or projections (for the most part). For instance, some players like JJ Watt will most likely excel in any scheme (3-4, 4-3, etc.). His talent is easier to evaluate overall. But a guy like AA (while not as talented at JJ overall) may only fit best as 4-5-tech DE in a 3-4...which, fortunately for us, is exactly what we run here and should be a very smooth transition with a very high ceiling.

i am sure somewhere along the way sus has ripped the dog for some of his evaluations,,,, sort of like Tim K ripping a former coach for four years and now all of a sudden he is his best bud