Originally posted by TheXFactor:With Kline back with Tenn, and Hubbard to the Browns, we have Sitton and Pugh left as options.
Fingers crossed.
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Originally posted by TheXFactor:With Kline back with Tenn, and Hubbard to the Browns, we have Sitton and Pugh left as options.
Originally posted by NCommand:Originally posted by jonnydel:I agree, it's how the team values those positions. However, if you're T. Brown and you know you can go on the open market and become a team's premiere starting LT why would you agree to be paid solid RT money? He'd be a fool to do that or have to be absolutely, crazy, head over heels in love with SF.
He's not going to. A. Davis when he signed his extension years ago was paid near top T money for a RT.
Just because the team may only want to pay Brown 10-11 mil doesn't mean Brown accepts it.
Again, to prove the point, look at what Nate Solder just got....you gonna tell me that LT money went up by 50% and it had nothing to do with Norwell's contract?
Solder got 15.5 per...why? Because Norwell got 14 per.
You can't pay a Guard elite tackle money without upsetting your whole pay scale and the league's pay scale, for that matter. Why then, would J. Staley be ok with getting paid 7.7 when the guard next to him or on the other side is getting twice what he is?
The Eagles are at 48 - but they only have 900k in cap room and still will have to sign their rookie class and have their FQB on a rookie contract(7.7 cap figure) after releasing multiple players. You think after Wentz signs an extension in 2 years they'll still pay their OL 25% of the total cap?
The point of all that is to say that for us to have brought Norwell in we would've had to then wrap up almost 30 mil in just two players on the OL for long-term contracts. That's a lot of coin for just 2 guys. How about we draft the next Norwell instead of paying out the nose for one?
Yeah, Norwell got $13.3 which is standard for premier G play. Solder, same for LT's. That hasn't changed at all. I totally agree in your allocation point. If you throw big money, even top 2 Center money at a player, it could affect your balance of pay later. So that has to be taken into consideration but if you look at the unit spends, you get what you pay for.
In the end, all it takes is one team to be convinced Brown will be their LT to get LT money despite playing his whole career at RT.
But as a RT today, he's in the RT bucket like Solder at LT and Richburg at C and they were paid according to their buckets.
Originally posted by StubbyNBY:LT- Staley
LG- Garnett vs Tomlinson
C- Richburg
RG- Draft pick?
RT- Brown
The bench looks to be real solid and we haven't end hit the draft yet. Kilgore sucks as a starting center but as a back-up swingman who can play guard and center, he is a very solid, versatile back-up. Eric Manguson I think will also prove to be a very solid, versatile back-up for us as he can play guard, center and even tackle in a pinch. Gilliam is a solid back-up swing tackle. I think Tomlinson would be a very good back-up as well. Throw in a Isiah Wynn and man we have something on the O-Line here....
I still have the gut feeling Connor Williams ends up on the 49ers. I think that is Kyle's draft crush.
Originally posted by NCommand:
I'm with you Stubby.
LOT: Joe Staley; Gary Gilliam & Pace Murphy
LG: Daniel Kilgore; Laken Tomlinson; Zane Beadles & Erik Magnuson
C: Weston Richburg; Daniel Kilgore; Erik Magnuson
RG: Joshua Garnett; Andrew Lauderdale
ROT: Trenton Brown; Darrell Williams Jr.
If Trenton Brown regains form, he, Staley and Richburg form 3 of the very best pass protectors not only at their respective positions, but across the board. We're seriously talking 3 players in the top 10 best pass protectors. Huge!
I like the depth of Gilliam at T and he'll get some #1 snaps for a while until Brown fully heals. That's a bonus. I like the potential of Darrell Williams Jr. as well.
Any time you have a wiley veteran like Kilgore providing interior depth at both C and G, that's a win. Zane Beadles should be a salary cap cut.
Now G. Obviously, next to C, G's are critical to Kyle's system. These are ACTIVE dudes. Really active.
As of right now, Tomlinson is cheap and got a year of experience last year but he's a big dude and is more of a power G. Ideally, he'd be nice depth like Kilgore. Erik Magnuson is a better C than anything and he may be on the out with the two contracts of Kilgore and Richburg. Garnett, like Tomlinson, is a former 1st round pick who's best suited for a power scheme and has sputtered so far in the NFL.
Counting on Tomlinson and Garnett as your two starting G's is counter to what Kyle would like from his G's in this system. We just spent big money on the FB, RB and FQB. He's going to want that ideal OL so he can employ all his weapons and open up the full playbook.
I have no idea what they'll do at the G spot. Fusco was snatched up quickly, Hubbard and Kline are gone, Sitton is visiting Miami...the market is drying up quickly...Justin Pugh and Jack Mewhort?
Originally posted by dtg_9er:Fixed! If they do not find a FA to fill a G spot I believe Kilgore would likely win a spot at G. That might work out quite well as he knows the line sets and could help Richburg. I doubt they break the bank for Brown, even though Shanahan has described him as the best pass blocking OT he's seen. My guess is he is trying to pump him up to stay or to trade...not sure which. Brown is decent but the combination of his lack of speed and his tendency to gain weight would be huge downsides for Shanahan's scheme. The more I think about it the more likely it seems they will draft a RT to groom for RT next year and possibly LT over the next few years.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Ewwww. Kilgore got bench pressed on the regular at C. Imagine him facing Aaron Donald. Poor guy.
But we'll see. I agree, he'll certainly be learning the G position. And he'll finally have a chance to train all off season vs. spending it rehabbing. Maybe he can get stronger? Great depth either way.
With Brown, pass protection is first and foremost with Kyle esp. when he has a FQB. McKinnon as the pass catching RB gives you more insight into the importance of PP. The stretch runs are really only one type of run used to keep defenses honest and wear them out chasing laterally. Kyle still throws bones to counters, gap and power.
We ran inside zone and outside zone equally (140 vs. 175). Kyle also ran equally to both sides. So there you go. He uses the threat of the run in this fashion to set up the pass. And likewise. And with McKinnon, those short passes are an extension of the running game and you still need stellar PP for that.
I'm very curious to see what we do with Brown. He's not ideal for the OZ but it didn't seem to matter to Kyle, otherwise, we'd run off Staley every down. And he is good on IZ, short yardage, power, goal line, etc.
I could certainly see both sides of that coin when it comes to him and his fit in this system. Kyle is certainly making moves to get the OL and RB/FB to a more ideal place.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:Huge difference blocking from center versus guard. If he is the starter at LG he will be more attuned to reacting as a G rather than C. Hard to be aggressive from the C position...which is why I wanted an upgrade there. The way you stop a Donald, or any ogre-pass rusher, is to out scheme the defense. When you try to bring in matching power you wind up with guys like Iupati. Have I mentioned I didn't care for him? LOL!
Speed and quickness is the way you neutralize power. Turn their power into a disadvantage for them. Richburg is a very good movement center, Kilgore is just OK. At G I don't see a better guy than Kilgore unless they pick up a FA. They lost Fusco so who would be a better pulling G than Daniel? Tomlinson? NO! Beadles? No. Garnett? I'm guessing he will be the other G based on reports that he is totally healthy, slimmed down and moving like a zone lineman. In a perfect world they would pick up a G equivalent to Richburg...someone who fits their scheme and improves the starting group. That doesn't look likely at this point. Too much need around the league and too few really good zone players.
Draft? I'm not convinced a rookie will start for Kyle Shanahan's OL. He'd have to be pretty special and a very quick learner. Even Nelson might take some time to start, and they aren't likely to be that lucky!
Originally posted by NCommand:Originally posted by dtg_9er:Fixed! If they do not find a FA to fill a G spot I believe Kilgore would likely win a spot at G. That might work out quite well as he knows the line sets and could help Richburg. I doubt they break the bank for Brown, even though Shanahan has described him as the best pass blocking OT he's seen. My guess is he is trying to pump him up to stay or to trade...not sure which. Brown is decent but the combination of his lack of speed and his tendency to gain weight would be huge downsides for Shanahan's scheme. The more I think about it the more likely it seems they will draft a RT to groom for RT next year and possibly LT over the next few years.
Ewwww. Kilgore got bench pressed on the regular at C. Imagine him facing Aaron Donald. Poor guy.
But we'll see. I agree, he'll certainly be learning the G position. And he'll finally have a chance to train all off season vs. spending it rehabbing. Maybe he can get stronger? Great depth either way.
With Brown, pass protection is first and foremost with Kyle esp. when he has a FQB. McKinnon as the pass catching RB gives you more insight into the importance of PP. The stretch runs are really only one type of run used to keep defenses honest and wear them out chasing laterally. Kyle still throws bones to counters, gap and power.
We ran inside zone and outside zone equally (140 vs. 175). Kyle also ran equally to both sides. So there you go. He uses the threat of the run in this fashion to set up the pass. And likewise. And with McKinnon, those short passes are an extension of the running game and you still need stellar PP for that.
I'm very curious to see what we do with Brown. He's not ideal for the OZ but it didn't seem to matter to Kyle, otherwise, we'd run off Staley every down. And he is good on IZ, short yardage, power, goal line, etc.
I could certainly see both sides of that coin when it comes to him and his fit in this system. Kyle is certainly making moves to get the OL and RB/FB to a more ideal place.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:If we don't extend Brown before the end of the season, we're likely going to have to Franchise him to keep him.
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Originally posted by post_primitive:Personally, I would be ok with us rolling in to TC with Garnett, Magnusson and bringing Brandon Fusco back while spending a 2nd or 3rd round pick on a guard. Fusco was a pretty well ranked guard for us last year and we've shored up the C spot and then giving Garnett(he was a 1st round pick for a reason and all we saw of him was his rookie year when some OL guys SUCK their first year) Magnusson and a rook the chance to compete.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by post_primitive:
Originally posted by Poldarn49:
The OL acquisitions seems to be more or less done until the draft. Getting another above-min free agent would make the longterm cost of the OL too high.
We have the 3 tackles for the season (Staly, Brown, Gilliam). We have the starting C (Richburg), and four others fighting for two starting spots (Garnett, Tomlinson, Kilgore, Magnusson). Add a veteran camp body (Beadles) and another three younger ones (Williams, Lauderdale, Murphy). That's 12, and assuming Beadles is kept until the end of the TC, we have roster spots for two vet min/UDFA types.
I don't follow your math. Most of those dudes won't make the team, especially if we bring in another solid vet or two. Those who do make the squad will be dirt cheap.
There's still plenty of latitude to upgrade. Josh Sitton, for example.
Yeah what we really have:
LOT: Joe Staley; Gary Gilliam
LG: GAPING HOLE
C: Weston Richburg; Daniel Kilgore
RG: GAPING HOLE
ROT: Trenton Brown; Darrell Williams Jr.
Agreed. That's a lot of gaping.
That's ideal to me. We'd have 3 guys less than 3 years in the league competing and working to earn a starting role while still having the elder statesman of Staley and other vets in Kilgore and Richburg to mentor these kids.
You bring back Fusco and there's only one gaping hole that has 3 decent options that all have the potential to turn into the next high caliber player.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
I will just add +1 to the first sentence above. Kilgore for whatever reason is no longer strong enough to do battle with DLs. He got pushed all over the field last yr, but mainly right back into the QBs lap. I understand he can play OG and C, but how come more folks aren't noting his inability to hold out DLs? I know the big 1 yr contract he has, but no matter where you put him on the OL, isn't he going to be a liability? Before his injury this was never an issue. Now, or in 2017, anyway, it became a big issue. I still think his signing was strictly for insurance, in case we couldn't sign another Center. With him under contract we didn't HAVE TO take a C. That way, which is the best way, we entered FA not having a MUST HAVE Center. We could grab one if he was "just right". And as long as Richburg(Sp?) stays healthy we are fine. If not, we are in trouble. We still are 2 OGs away from having a functioning OL, and wth two top flite OGs, this OL becomes a top 10 entry. If Nelson happened to fall to us, it is top 5. But still we would need a really good OG from draft to make that happen...or FA, eg Sitton.
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:With Kilgore's release, what is the plan? Right now it's Staley-Tomlinson-Richburg-Garret-Brown? Is another FA guard targeted? Pugh? Who else is left that is average or above average in FA? Are the Niners depending on the draft? Does Kilgore's trade (for nothing) suggest the first selection will be a guard (and not pass rusher even after Dumervil's release)? Do the Niners trade down and select Wynn and (with the extra pick) follow that with Daniels, Price or Ragnow? Or trade down, select Landry or Davenport (whichever is available) and select two guards from the 2nd or 3rd rounds. And start two rookies on the OL in front of Jimmy G?