49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Here's another thot:

"Build your lines first"....Vince Lombardi.

Ok, we got on the DL:

DeFo, Solomon, DJ Jones, Blair, Mitchell, the Douze, AA, Dooms, Day, Marsh/LB/DL...and a couple I forgot.....ok Williams(Darren OT).

No secret, three of these were our 1st rd picks.

OK now look at OL:

Staley, Fsco, Kilgore, Laken, Trent Brown, Beadles, Gilliam.

the difference: Staley, now about 2 yrs from retirement was 1st rd pick. Now at end of his career. Brown our starter, and best pass blocking OL of team was a 7th rounder. Laken was a high pick who bombed in Detroit. Beadles, Gilliam, Kilgore...there is no one who is a pass blocker there except Trent. NONE. And that does not constitute "BUILDING your LINES FIRST."

So here's the fix:

To catch up the OL with the DL, we need to do two brave things. One is spend money on Norwell. He gives us a premier OL at OG. an all pro. Second , sign Sitton, or Pugh, maybe Jensen...one of those 3. Then go into draft and take Nelson... But doing that requires moving up...1 to 2 slots. But if we do that , we suddenly have an all pro in Norwell, and a consensus best OL in draft, sure to be all pro, plus Sitton, or Jensen or Pugh. Then add Nelson and that disregarded OL suddenly becomes first rate. Yes that is a lot of $$ and draft capital between FA and draft, but is long overdue. Catch up this yr. We need it to protect our FR QB. Keep Trenton until we see how he does in games in PS...perhaps later. We need his blocking to protect our main guy, Jimmy. This way our OL ends up on a par with the DL, and we will have built our lines first. (a bit later than we got our FR QB , but hey, who's counting?) Do this and hustle every single FA we can, Tremaine at CB, hope for Eli or Marsh to become our LEO, and watch the rest of the DL overpower this yr. It would mean getting every single upgrade at CB, LB, we can get, but we have to. Then in draft finish off LBs(2), WR(Redzone), and RB.

Buy and draft the best for the OL.. it's way past time. Fill every slot that is a potential starter in FA at CB, LB. Draft fill out LBs, CB if not in FA, Leo, WR , RB.

Yep. All starts with the lines. Have to sort the OL.

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by dj43:
"The O-line shortage is reaching epidemic proportions and teams simply aren't allowing quality, healthy young players to hit the market."

This is a quote from an article at NFL.com on FA OL that will get overpaid this time around. It fits my belief that the main reason the 49ers have OL problems is because of the lack of pro-ready OL coming out of college. IOW, there is a lack of product available. Colleges run spread offenses that require a much different OL than do most pro teams. This is even more critical with Kyle's offense which has the QB under center more than most.

The answer is to find college players that have the physical package and spend the time to train them. There are only two, maybe three pro-ready OL this year that should be starting from the get-go. The rest should have more coaching before they will be able to do the job.

So for Brown and Garnett, maybe even Tomlinson, this means they need some quality coaching and will then be able to play well. There just isn't a plug-and-play option out there that will be an instant fix other than Norwell or maybe Pugh. (I still like Jensen but not as enamored with him as I was in November.)

If that's the case, then instead of drafting O LInemen, get them in free agency after they've been taught the pro-style offense by another team. Preferably, get them from a good O Line coaching team, and get them as young as possible so that they can have a long second contract with us.

That's the problem. Team's are not letting them get to FA.

I recently compared a list of FAs and their PFF rankings. Result:

OT - of the top 20, none are FA this year.

G - Sitton, Norwell, Pugh and Fulton are FA. No other guards ranked higher than Fusco are FA.

C - Jensen and Long are FA among top 20.

So, throughout the entire NFL, there are only 6 offensive linemen ranked higher than the starters from last season. That is a pathetic statement about the quality of OL play around the league.

Now add in the specific scheme requirements of Kyle's system and you begin to see the problem.

A trade is a possibility but with such a dearth of talent at OL, you will have to give up substantial talent at another position in order to improve the OL. At this point, I don't want to give up any of that other talent. We still lack depth and talent. No free assets just sitting around.

I'm not really worried about the O LIne. I know that it will get better. I just am very confident that ShanaLynch know what they are doing, and have an idea of what kind of traits they want in an O Line, and just like WR Marquis - they'll develop the guys they have (and the guys they are able to get) into good O Linemen. I simply don't think they need to overpay an all pro linemen to build a line. They just have to get good young intelligent athletes that have been overlooked simply because they don't fit the scheme of the team they are playing on, or have been sitting behind an all pro player and have not gotten on the field to show what they can do.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by dj43:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by dj43:
"The O-line shortage is reaching epidemic proportions and teams simply aren't allowing quality, healthy young players to hit the market."

This is a quote from an article at NFL.com on FA OL that will get overpaid this time around. It fits my belief that the main reason the 49ers have OL problems is because of the lack of pro-ready OL coming out of college. IOW, there is a lack of product available. Colleges run spread offenses that require a much different OL than do most pro teams. This is even more critical with Kyle's offense which has the QB under center more than most.

The answer is to find college players that have the physical package and spend the time to train them. There are only two, maybe three pro-ready OL this year that should be starting from the get-go. The rest should have more coaching before they will be able to do the job.

So for Brown and Garnett, maybe even Tomlinson, this means they need some quality coaching and will then be able to play well. There just isn't a plug-and-play option out there that will be an instant fix other than Norwell or maybe Pugh. (I still like Jensen but not as enamored with him as I was in November.)

If that's the case, then instead of drafting O LInemen, get them in free agency after they've been taught the pro-style offense by another team. Preferably, get them from a good O Line coaching team, and get them as young as possible so that they can have a long second contract with us.

That's the problem. Team's are not letting them get to FA.

I recently compared a list of FAs and their PFF rankings. Result:

OT - of the top 20, none are FA this year.

G - Sitton, Norwell, Pugh and Fulton are FA. No other guards ranked higher than Fusco are FA.

C - Jensen and Long are FA among top 20.

So, throughout the entire NFL, there are only 6 offensive linemen ranked higher than the starters from last season. That is a pathetic statement about the quality of OL play around the league.

Now add in the specific scheme requirements of Kyle's system and you begin to see the problem.

A trade is a possibility but with such a dearth of talent at OL, you will have to give up substantial talent at another position in order to improve the OL. At this point, I don't want to give up any of that other talent. We still lack depth and talent. No free assets just sitting around.

I'm not really worried about the O LIne. I know that it will get better. I just am very confident that ShanaLynch know what they are doing, and have an idea of what kind of traits they want in an O Line, and just like WR Marquis - they'll develop the guys they have (and the guys they are able to get) into good O Linemen. I simply don't think they need to overpay an all pro linemen to build a line. They just have to get good young intelligent athletes that have been overlooked simply because they don't fit the scheme of the team they are playing on, or have been sitting behind an all pro player and have not gotten on the field to show what they can do.

I think we are pretty much in agreement.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Here's another thot:

"Build your lines first"....Vince Lombardi.

Ok, we got on the DL:

DeFo, Solomon, DJ Jones, Blair, Mitchell, the Douze, AA, Dooms, Day, Marsh/LB/DL...and a couple I forgot.....ok Williams(Darren OT).

No secret, three of these were our 1st rd picks.

OK now look at OL:

Staley, Fsco, Kilgore, Laken, Trent Brown, Beadles, Gilliam.

the difference: Staley, now about 2 yrs from retirement was 1st rd pick. Now at end of his career. Brown our starter, and best pass blocking OL of team was a 7th rounder. Laken was a high pick who bombed in Detroit. Beadles, Gilliam, Kilgore...there is no one who is a pass blocker there except Trent. NONE. And that does not constitute "BUILDING your LINES FIRST."

So here's the fix:

To catch up the OL with the DL, we need to do two brave things. One is spend money on Norwell. He gives us a premier OL at OG. an all pro. Second , sign Sitton, or Pugh, maybe Jensen...one of those 3. Then go into draft and take Nelson... But doing that requires moving up...1 to 2 slots. But if we do that , we suddenly have an all pro in Norwell, and a consensus best OL in draft, sure to be all pro, plus Sitton, or Jensen or Pugh. Then add Nelson and that disregarded OL suddenly becomes first rate. Yes that is a lot of $$ and draft capital between FA and draft, but is long overdue. Catch up this yr. We need it to protect our FR QB. Keep Trenton until we see how he does in games in PS...perhaps later. We need his blocking to protect our main guy, Jimmy. This way our OL ends up on a par with the DL, and we will have built our lines first. (a bit later than we got our FR QB , but hey, who's counting?) Do this and hustle every single FA we can, Tremaine at CB, hope for Eli or Marsh to become our LEO, and watch the rest of the DL overpower this yr. It would mean getting every single upgrade at CB, LB, we can get, but we have to. Then in draft finish off LBs(2), WR(Redzone), and RB.

Buy and draft the best for the OL.. it's way past time. Fill every slot that is a potential starter in FA at CB, LB. Draft fill out LBs, CB if not in FA, Leo, WR , RB.

Lombardi Sweep

As coach of the Packers, Lombardi converted Notre Dame quarterback and Heisman Trophy winner Paul Hornung to a full-time halfback. Lombardi also designed a play for Jim Taylor, the Green Bay fullback—both guards, Jerry Kramer and Fuzzy Thurston, pulled to the outside and blocked downfield while Taylor would "run to daylight" — i.e., wherever the defenders weren't. This was a play that he had originally developed with the Giants for Frank Gifford. It soon became known as the "Lombardi sweep," though Lombardi openly admitted it was based on an old single wing concept.

Paul Hornung, HB, Jim Taylor, FB, Jerry Kramer, G, Fuzzy Thurston, G, pull both guards, and Hall of Fame Quarterback Bart Starr gets to throw 17 times a game.

OK then, we've got a plan.

The belief is that Andrew Norwell to the New York Giants is a "done deal."

Tony Pauline, Draft Analyst

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Here's another thot:

"Build your lines first"....Vince Lombardi.

Ok, we got on the DL:

DeFo, Solomon, DJ Jones, Blair, Mitchell, the Douze, AA, Dooms, Day, Marsh/LB/DL...and a couple I forgot.....ok Williams(Darren OT).

No secret, three of these were our 1st rd picks.

OK now look at OL:

Staley, Fsco, Kilgore, Laken, Trent Brown, Beadles, Gilliam.

the difference: Staley, now about 2 yrs from retirement was 1st rd pick. Now at end of his career. Brown our starter, and best pass blocking OL of team was a 7th rounder. Laken was a high pick who bombed in Detroit. Beadles, Gilliam, Kilgore...there is no one who is a pass blocker there except Trent. NONE. And that does not constitute "BUILDING your LINES FIRST."

So here's the fix:

To catch up the OL with the DL, we need to do two brave things. One is spend money on Norwell. He gives us a premier OL at OG. an all pro. Second , sign Sitton, or Pugh, maybe Jensen...one of those 3. Then go into draft and take Nelson... But doing that requires moving up...1 to 2 slots. But if we do that , we suddenly have an all pro in Norwell, and a consensus best OL in draft, sure to be all pro, plus Sitton, or Jensen or Pugh. Then add Nelson and that disregarded OL suddenly becomes first rate. Yes that is a lot of $$ and draft capital between FA and draft, but is long overdue. Catch up this yr. We need it to protect our FR QB. Keep Trenton until we see how he does in games in PS...perhaps later. We need his blocking to protect our main guy, Jimmy. This way our OL ends up on a par with the DL, and we will have built our lines first. (a bit later than we got our FR QB , but hey, who's counting?) Do this and hustle every single FA we can, Tremaine at CB, hope for Eli or Marsh to become our LEO, and watch the rest of the DL overpower this yr. It would mean getting every single upgrade at CB, LB, we can get, but we have to. Then in draft finish off LBs(2), WR(Redzone), and RB.

Buy and draft the best for the OL.. it's way past time. Fill every slot that is a potential starter in FA at CB, LB. Draft fill out LBs, CB if not in FA, Leo, WR , RB.

Lombardi Sweep

As coach of the Packers, Lombardi converted Notre Dame quarterback and Heisman Trophy winner Paul Hornung to a full-time halfback. Lombardi also designed a play for Jim Taylor, the Green Bay fullback—both guards, Jerry Kramer and Fuzzy Thurston, pulled to the outside and blocked downfield while Taylor would "run to daylight" — i.e., wherever the defenders weren't. This was a play that he had originally developed with the Giants for Frank Gifford. It soon became known as the "Lombardi sweep," though Lombardi openly admitted it was based on an old single wing concept.

Paul Hornung, HB, Jim Taylor, FB, Jerry Kramer, G, Fuzzy Thurston, G, pull both guards, and Hall of Fame Quarterback Bart Starr gets to throw 17 times a game.

OK then, we've got a plan.

Imagine being Jim Howell and having your OC be Vince Lombardi and your DC be Tom Landry. I mean you don't have to do any *work.* I heard he pretty much read newspapers during his coaching days when both Vince and Tom were on his coaching staff. I can just imagine the coaching tree he has today.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by BOI49er:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Here's another thot:

"Build your lines first"....Vince Lombardi.

Ok, we got on the DL:

DeFo, Solomon, DJ Jones, Blair, Mitchell, the Douze, AA, Dooms, Day, Marsh/LB/DL...and a couple I forgot.....ok Williams(Darren OT).

No secret, three of these were our 1st rd picks.

OK now look at OL:

Staley, Fsco, Kilgore, Laken, Trent Brown, Beadles, Gilliam.

the difference: Staley, now about 2 yrs from retirement was 1st rd pick. Now at end of his career. Brown our starter, and best pass blocking OL of team was a 7th rounder. Laken was a high pick who bombed in Detroit. Beadles, Gilliam, Kilgore...there is no one who is a pass blocker there except Trent. NONE. And that does not constitute "BUILDING your LINES FIRST."

So here's the fix:

To catch up the OL with the DL, we need to do two brave things. One is spend money on Norwell. He gives us a premier OL at OG. an all pro. Second , sign Sitton, or Pugh, maybe Jensen...one of those 3. Then go into draft and take Nelson... But doing that requires moving up...1 to 2 slots. But if we do that , we suddenly have an all pro in Norwell, and a consensus best OL in draft, sure to be all pro, plus Sitton, or Jensen or Pugh. Then add Nelson and that disregarded OL suddenly becomes first rate. Yes that is a lot of $$ and draft capital between FA and draft, but is long overdue. Catch up this yr. We need it to protect our FR QB. Keep Trenton until we see how he does in games in PS...perhaps later. We need his blocking to protect our main guy, Jimmy. This way our OL ends up on a par with the DL, and we will have built our lines first. (a bit later than we got our FR QB , but hey, who's counting?) Do this and hustle every single FA we can, Tremaine at CB, hope for Eli or Marsh to become our LEO, and watch the rest of the DL overpower this yr. It would mean getting every single upgrade at CB, LB, we can get, but we have to. Then in draft finish off LBs(2), WR(Redzone), and RB.

Buy and draft the best for the OL.. it's way past time. Fill every slot that is a potential starter in FA at CB, LB. Draft fill out LBs, CB if not in FA, Leo, WR , RB.

Lombardi Sweep

As coach of the Packers, Lombardi converted Notre Dame quarterback and Heisman Trophy winner Paul Hornung to a full-time halfback. Lombardi also designed a play for Jim Taylor, the Green Bay fullback—both guards, Jerry Kramer and Fuzzy Thurston, pulled to the outside and blocked downfield while Taylor would "run to daylight" — i.e., wherever the defenders weren't. This was a play that he had originally developed with the Giants for Frank Gifford. It soon became known as the "Lombardi sweep," though Lombardi openly admitted it was based on an old single wing concept.

Paul Hornung, HB, Jim Taylor, FB, Jerry Kramer, G, Fuzzy Thurston, G, pull both guards, and Hall of Fame Quarterback Bart Starr gets to throw 17 times a game.

OK then, we've got a plan.

Imagine being Jim Howell and having your OC be Vince Lombardi and your DC be Tom Landry. I mean you don't have to do any *work.* I heard he pretty much read newspapers during his coaching days when both Vince and Tom were on his coaching staff. I can just imagine the coaching tree he has today.

He earned it. He gave both those guys their first coordinator jobs.

Thinking about the Gilliam deal. This probably means that the team expects Magnusson to play inside (probably center). Last year Magnusson had to play OT because of injuries. At that point we have 4 IOL of some quality (Kilgore, Tomlinson, Garnett, Magnusson) and 4 OTs (Staley, Brown, Gilliam, Williams). The team really needs a top FA guard (Sitton or Fusco at this point) to protect JimmyG and to help the run game, to free up the first draft pick for BPA/edge rusher. Get a center in the 2nd-4th range.

I expect the team to have 9 OL on the roster next season, to figure out which one of the players (except Staley/Brown/Kilgore/Gilliam) are worth keeping.

Originally posted by Poldarn49:
Thinking about the Gilliam deal. This probably means that the team expects Magnusson to play inside (probably center). Last year Magnusson had to play OT because of injuries. At that point we have 4 IOL of some quality (Kilgore, Tomlinson, Garnett, Magnusson) and 4 OTs (Staley, Brown, Gilliam, Williams). The team really needs a top FA guard (Sitton or Fusco at this point) to protect JimmyG and to help the run game, to free up the first draft pick for BPA/edge rusher. Get a center in the 2nd-4th range.

I expect the team to have 9 OL on the roster next season, to figure out which one of the players (except Staley/Brown/Kilgore/Gilliam) are worth keeping.

I really like Magnusson at center. As per NFL Draft Scout....

Strengths Has starting experience at both guard and tackle. Solid athlete with loose hips and good lateral movement. Average feet but a clean, smooth kick slide. Understands his angles as a zone blocker and will give ground to gain ground on his cut-blocks. Patient on reach blocks and waits until feet are in position before locking up. Can adjust in space to connect with moving targets. Dependable in space. Decent block engagement. Operates with capable mirroring ability in pass protection. Has the balance and footwork necessary to redirect his weight back inside against stunts and counter moves.

Bottom Line A tackle at Michigan his last two seasons there, but lack of length and power could necessitate a move into center or back at guard for a zone-scheme team. Movement skills make him a fit for teams looking to operate in space, but he will have to prove he has the functional strength necessary to hold up inside in the NFL.

I think he could be the *ideal* center for Kyle's offense.

Originally posted by FL9er:

The belief is that Andrew Norwell to the New York Giants is a "done deal."

Tony Pauline, Draft Analyst

People keep quoting this Tony Pauline who's not afraid to stick his neck out and claim a lot of guarantees....

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Poldarn49:
Thinking about the Gilliam deal. This probably means that the team expects Magnusson to play inside (probably center). Last year Magnusson had to play OT because of injuries. At that point we have 4 IOL of some quality (Kilgore, Tomlinson, Garnett, Magnusson) and 4 OTs (Staley, Brown, Gilliam, Williams). The team really needs a top FA guard (Sitton or Fusco at this point) to protect JimmyG and to help the run game, to free up the first draft pick for BPA/edge rusher. Get a center in the 2nd-4th range.

I expect the team to have 9 OL on the roster next season, to figure out which one of the players (except Staley/Brown/Kilgore/Gilliam) are worth keeping.

I really like Magnusson at center. As per NFL Draft Scout....

Strengths Has starting experience at both guard and tackle. Solid athlete with loose hips and good lateral movement. Average feet but a clean, smooth kick slide. Understands his angles as a zone blocker and will give ground to gain ground on his cut-blocks. Patient on reach blocks and waits until feet are in position before locking up. Can adjust in space to connect with moving targets. Dependable in space. Decent block engagement. Operates with capable mirroring ability in pass protection. Has the balance and footwork necessary to redirect his weight back inside against stunts and counter moves.

Bottom Line A tackle at Michigan his last two seasons there, but lack of length and power could necessitate a move into center or back at guard for a zone-scheme team. Movement skills make him a fit for teams looking to operate in space, but he will have to prove he has the functional strength necessary to hold up inside in the NFL.

I think he could be the *ideal* center for Kyle's offense.

Thanks! I had forgotten about Magnuson's draft profile talking about center.

Originally posted by Giedi:
I'm not really worried about the O LIne. I know that it will get better. I just am very confident that ShanaLynch know what they are doing, and have an idea of what kind of traits they want in an O Line, and just like WR Marquis - they'll develop the guys they have (and the guys they are able to get) into good O Linemen. I simply don't think they need to overpay an all pro linemen to build a line. They just have to get good young intelligent athletes that have been overlooked simply because they don't fit the scheme of the team they are playing on, or have been sitting behind an all pro player and have not gotten on the field to show what they can do.

Good call!

Chris Hubbard is a guy who has been playing behind some top caliber guys.

He can play G, C, T.

Originally posted by jcs:

Originally posted by FL9er:

The belief is that Andrew Norwell to the New York Giants is a "done deal."

Tony Pauline, Draft Analyst

People keep quoting this Tony Pauline who's not afraid to stick his neck out and claim a lot of guarantees....

I had never heard of him before.

Tony's got some balls and if he's correct will get a lot more notice.

Staley,Sitton,Kilgore,Rookie,Brown, Fusco...I guess its better than last year

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by Poldarn49:
Thinking about the Gilliam deal. This probably means that the team expects Magnusson to play inside (probably center). Last year Magnusson had to play OT because of injuries. At that point we have 4 IOL of some quality (Kilgore, Tomlinson, Garnett, Magnusson) and 4 OTs (Staley, Brown, Gilliam, Williams). The team really needs a top FA guard (Sitton or Fusco at this point) to protect JimmyG and to help the run game, to free up the first draft pick for BPA/edge rusher. Get a center in the 2nd-4th range.

I expect the team to have 9 OL on the roster next season, to figure out which one of the players (except Staley/Brown/Kilgore/Gilliam) are worth keeping.

I really like Magnusson at center. As per NFL Draft Scout....

Strengths Has starting experience at both guard and tackle. Solid athlete with loose hips and good lateral movement. Average feet but a clean, smooth kick slide. Understands his angles as a zone blocker and will give ground to gain ground on his cut-blocks. Patient on reach blocks and waits until feet are in position before locking up. Can adjust in space to connect with moving targets. Dependable in space. Decent block engagement. Operates with capable mirroring ability in pass protection. Has the balance and footwork necessary to redirect his weight back inside against stunts and counter moves.

Bottom Line A tackle at Michigan his last two seasons there, but lack of length and power could necessitate a move into center or back at guard for a zone-scheme team. Movement skills make him a fit for teams looking to operate in space, but he will have to prove he has the functional strength necessary to hold up inside in the NFL.

I think he could be the *ideal* center for Kyle's offense.

Thanks! I had forgotten about Magnuson's draft profile talking about center.

I think he looks like a likely keeper too.