49ers Offensive Line

Originally posted by 49erphan:

Originally posted by Hopper:

Originally posted by 49erphan:
I think Baalke is at least average to above average overall in finding talent to put on the field, but he really screwed up this year with respect to the offensive line. It was evident last year that the o-line needed immediate (not developmental) upgrading. I don't know why he thought that getting Pears from FA and Silberman and Brown in later rounds of the draft would be sufficient. Maybe he thought that the players they have been developing for a year or two would be good enough - maybe the coaches gave him a rosier assessment of guys like Martin than they should have. It's a mystery to me why Baalke didn't do more to bring more talent to the o-line this year.

Maybe he wasn't expecting his Right Tackle to retire a month before training camp.

Yeah, that probably had something to do with it - along with not expecting Kilgore to be out for so long. But A. Davis had been out more and more in recent times because of injuries (unlike his earlier years when he was rarely absent because of injury) so I think he should have anticipated that Davis might be out for a long chunk of time. Like I said, last year even with Iupati, Kilgore and Davis on the line, the line was still pretty hinky when it came to pass protection. If Davis had had a season ending injury in training camp or the pre-season - which wouldn't have been all that unlikely - the team would still have ended up where we are now, so I still think Baalke should have made better preparations than he did.

He never missed a game due to injury before last season. Most teams would look at a season like that as an anomoly, rather than an emerging trend.

Originally posted by Frisco69ers:
this Cleveland-Devey trade sure is looking pretty good right about now

Agree.

I hope they get him involved more and actually se what he can do.

Also, the best way to improve, IMO, is actually playing in a game. I'm hoping they get Trent Brown as many reps as possible.

Originally posted by Antix:

Originally posted by Nuns:
On draft day I was hoping they were going to call the name of the center from Florida State. I bet the Niners wish they had now.

This. Armstead looks like a project and he will not contriubute impactfully this year no matter how you slice it. We could really use a center right now. Everybody wants to say "but Kilgore" but a. whats his timline? and b. how effective is he even gonna be? Earving will prob be a perennial pro bowler.

But punkass Davis quit after the draft so things might have been different in the draft if he had just quit earlier. Him and Adlon pretty much tanked this season for us.

Disagree about needing a center more than Armstead...who may be much better, even this year, than you believe. They have four guys who played center last year and did a credible job, while they struggled at G and RT.

Then they lost their LG and RT making those positions more a need. Baalke had made a move to shore up G by drafting Thomas, a gift due to injury, in the 3rd round. He didn't anticipate losing A Davis and had to scramble to pick up Pears. I was not happy they didn't address OT in the draft because I don't trust Boone to stick with the team after next year and Staley has had back issues in the past. They picked up Brown as a project late...but for this and next year?

Martin's best qualities seem to be his constant alertness and quick reactions at the center position. So it stands to reason he only needs help against power. I would like to see them use some experienced guys at G in the next game to see if that helps. Tiller and Boone would be my choices...if they don't move Boone to RT, which would be my preference. Or Tiller with either Devey or Looney.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Not liking what I'm hearing from the coaches. "Little struggle" is an understatement. My faith has always been shaky with Chris Foerester and he can't keep his head in the sand about this. I'm starting to wonder if the Chilo rachal crap singltary or Chris.

I really don't think the coaching staff has any idea what they are doing.

Originally posted by WRATHman44:
You mean 2011 bad? That group struggled so badly through the PS and 1st two weeks of the regular season that Staley was barking, "we don't suck!" at the beat writers. New line with a new staff. This happens. OL is the toughest group to bring together. Pears was pretty good last week. He struggled next to Silberman, who had a terrible game. Do we blame Pears or Silberman for that? Pears' MO vs edge rushers is to run them around the pocket. He tried to do that with Ware, but Kap got forced backwards by the immediate inside pressure that Silberman gave up. That makes the pocket deeper than it should be by play design, and Pears' attempt to run Ware by actually runs Ware directly into Kap. Quick inside pressure is a killer.

This! It takes time for an OL to jell and they have been playing many combinations so far. That means the chemistry can't happen yet as they are constantly shifting partners. The good news is that by playing more combos they will be better served once the season starts and they get nicked up along the line. When I heard Silberman......surprised that they put him in so soon when they were trying to get settled, but perhaps he had a better practice and they wanted to reward that?!

Originally posted by 49erphan:
Yeah, that probably had something to do with it - along with not expecting Kilgore to be out for so long. But A. Davis had been out more and more in recent times because of injuries (unlike his earlier years when he was rarely absent because of injury) so I think he should have anticipated that Davis might be out for a long chunk of time. Like I said, last year even with Iupati, Kilgore and Davis on the line, the line was still pretty hinky when it came to pass protection. If Davis had had a season ending injury in training camp or the pre-season - which wouldn't have been all that unlikely - the team would still have ended up where we are now, so I still think Baalke should have made better preparations than he did.

Davis missed 4 games late last year but was able to return for the final 2 games. He had never missed a start before last year, and given that and the fact that he did come back to start the final 2 games, you don't look at the kid and go "well there is a bit of a likelihood that he could suffer a season ending injury in next year's preseason because he missed some games this year". They probably assumed that he would have time in the offseason to get fully healthy not anticipate he could miss a "long chunk of time". And this team did bring in insurance in Pears, though he was not expected to start at RT when he was signed, it was a move that could add depth both inside and out and a vet to push the young guys. Then they drafted Brown on top of that.

Sounds to me like you need to lay blame for the OL struggles somewhere. If that is the case you can start with Anthony Davis himself for the timing of when he made his decision. Had Baalke known in March/April that Davis would not be back he likely attempts to work the market and take a closer look at RT's in the earlier rounds of the draft.

We spent the last decade drafting big power blocking O-linemen, now we ask the to Zone Block, good luck with that, its like taking tractor to a drag race.

If we want to make a commitment to becoming zone blocking, edge running, screen plays, short quick passing, like we saw in the Broncos last night, we need to know there will be growing pains. There will be some turn over along the O-line, to a more athletic group.

What I saw last night was a team still trying to run a mix of power, and zone, and looking confused.

The line seemed confused on pass plays, either the protection schemes are not working, or the line calls were blown, perhaps Denver did a great job of disguising their pass rush, and blitz packages.

We as a team have always looked for running backs who can pick up the blitz, which is nice if it's 1972, and you are looking to throw the bomb on every pass play. Watching Denver dump off to the back, who rather than blitzing simply ran to the voided zone and turned around, made me sad. It made me miss the days when the "Finesse ass 49ers" used to always seem to find that zone voided by the Blitzer and make defenses pay.

I didn't blame the O-line so much for the poor performance, but I put the blame on the coaches.

? What is the time table for kilgores return

Originally posted by Txniner80:
? What is the time table for kilgores return

I've read the second game at the earliest. Anyone else hear something different?

Originally posted by WRATHman44:

Originally posted by 49erphan:

Originally posted by Hopper:

Originally posted by 49erphan:
I think Baalke is at least average to above average overall in finding talent to put on the field, but he really screwed up this year with respect to the offensive line. It was evident last year that the o-line needed immediate (not developmental) upgrading. I don't know why he thought that getting Pears from FA and Silberman and Brown in later rounds of the draft would be sufficient. Maybe he thought that the players they have been developing for a year or two would be good enough - maybe the coaches gave him a rosier assessment of guys like Martin than they should have. It's a mystery to me why Baalke didn't do more to bring more talent to the o-line this year.

Maybe he wasn't expecting his Right Tackle to retire a month before training camp.

Yeah, that probably had something to do with it - along with not expecting Kilgore to be out for so long. But A. Davis had been out more and more in recent times because of injuries (unlike his earlier years when he was rarely absent because of injury) so I think he should have anticipated that Davis might be out for a long chunk of time. Like I said, last year even with Iupati, Kilgore and Davis on the line, the line was still pretty hinky when it came to pass protection. If Davis had had a season ending injury in training camp or the pre-season - which wouldn't have been all that unlikely - the team would still have ended up where we are now, so I still think Baalke should have made better preparations than he did.

He never missed a game due to injury before last season. Most teams would look at a season like that as an anomoly, rather than an emerging trend.

Davis had a nagging shoulder problem much of 2013 season and then in 2014 he was hit with problems to his hamstring, knees and ankles and then the really nasty concussion. To me it was evident enough that before Davis even announced he was leaving "for awhile" that I predicted in a thread here that Baalke would regret not doing more to get a better tackle. I can understand how others might have seen that progression of injuries as nothing more than anomalies, though. We may need to agree to disagree about it.

My point wasn't only about Davis - the o-line as a whole was lacking enough in pass protection in 2014 (and even earlier) that I think Baalke should have anticipated he would need to get more talent on the o-line.

One thing for sure...and that is our next 3 drafts are going to require an OL in the first round. Our OL talent is remarkably thin.

Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
We spent the last decade drafting big power blocking O-linemen, now we ask the to Zone Block, good luck with that, its like taking tractor to a drag race.

If we want to make a commitment to becoming zone blocking, edge running, screen plays, short quick passing, like we saw in the Broncos last night, we need to know there will be growing pains. There will be some turn over along the O-line, to a more athletic group.

What I saw last night was a team still trying to run a mix of power, and zone, and looking confused.

The line seemed confused on pass plays, either the protection schemes are not working, or the line calls were blown, perhaps Denver did a great job of disguising their pass rush, and blitz packages.

We as a team have always looked for running backs who can pick up the blitz, which is nice if it's 1972, and you are looking to throw the bomb on every pass play. Watching Denver dump off to the back, who rather than blitzing simply ran to the voided zone and turned around, made me sad. It made me miss the days when the "Finesse ass 49ers" used to always seem to find that zone voided by the Blitzer and make defenses pay.

I didn't blame the O-line so much for the poor performance, but I put the blame on the coaches.

I do think the transition to more zone concepts is part of the issue, just growing pains. The Ravens OL sucked donkey balls the season that they switched to zone blocking but they were golden last season.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
I do think the transition to more zone concepts is part of the issue, just growing pains. The Ravens OL sucked donkey balls the season that they switched to zone blocking but they were golden last season.

Yes!

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
One thing for sure...and that is our next 3 drafts are going to require an OL in the first round. Our OL talent is remarkably thin.

Could be Doc but it might also be that this line could be similar to the early 80s when they had a couple of really good players along with some very smart and versatile guys who worked well together.

Right now they look terrible but they haven't settled on a starting group yet and they haven't played any group consistently to develop chemistry. Maybe they are doing this in practice and not games yet, but it seems they are still trying to find their top eight guys before cuts are manditory. They gave Silberman a shot...just to see if he can make the final cut? Probably.

They may have a big problem right now if they are forced to give up some promising young guys...Brown, Silberman...in order to keep some marginally better vets...Farrell, Tiller. But down the line, say in week six, who would be more helpful? So many guys to sort through.

I'll panick if they don't look much better in the first game that counts...or if Kaepernick gets injured.

Originally posted by 49erphan:
Davis had a nagging shoulder problem much of 2013 season and then in 2014 he was hit with problems to his hamstring, knees and ankles and then the really nasty concussion. To me it was evident enough that before Davis even announced he was leaving "for awhile" that I predicted in a thread here that Baalke would regret not doing more to get a better tackle. I can understand how others might have seen that progression of injuries as nothing more than anomalies, though. We may need to agree to disagree about it.

My point wasn't only about Davis - the o-line as a whole was lacking enough in pass protection in 2014 (and even earlier) that I think Baalke should have anticipated he would need to get more talent on the o-line.

I should have acknowledged in this response that I used the wrong terminology in my earlier posting in saying that Davis had been "out" more in recent times. I should have said that he was injured more in a way that was effecting his play more in the last couple of years.