Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by Joecool:
No NFL OC (Jimmy Raye aside) tells a QB this play is specifically for the corner route even if you see coverage that is there to negate the corner route. Their is a reason why there are 3 levels to this route. To imply that Roman is forcing Kap to look deep first and have no care about the defensive read...well...that is lower than college level.
It is the QB's job to decipher the defense and the OC's job to provide the QB with "checkdowns" or "check outs". The design of this play tells me Roman has already installed different options for different defenses and that Kap is making the worst possible reads.
+1
It would make 0 sense to tell him don't throw to another open guy. If that was the case none of them would look back for the ball.
That's not the point. We are trying to assess why he is always looking at deeper routes first and by the time he gets down to the check down he is pressured and then he's off scrambling. These RB's are always wide open and it's not like he can't see them...sometimes they are right in front of him. But his eyes are always down field. Granted sometimes he does hesitate or is late but the conception of always looking down field must be a coaching point?
I think its just him. I've said this before (think we even talked about it?) he is the anti Alex. Alex had the physical handicap that made him always look short and not risk going long. Yes, he could go long but I think his shredded shoulder (FU Nolan) made him second guess himself. With Kap, I think he wants the long ball. He knows he has the arm strength and has the balls to try and force the throw. While Alex started short and rarely went deep, Kap starts deep and rarely looks short. Honestly if we could blend them into a single QB we would have a master lol.
While Kap may be instructed to look deep (primary read). After a certain point he would have to realize other guys are always open, via film study. If he knows his check down is free 70%+ of the time, he is choosing not to look there. He's not a gun-shy idiotic rookie, he's a 4 year vet. Even if Roman said don't ever look, after a point, he would do it because it just made sense. I really think he wants the mid to deep ball and doesn't really care about the short s**t. In his mind, why waste 2-3 passes when you can get all those yards in a single completion. IMO its his balls being bigger than his brain...its ego...its not reading the D...its not taking what the D is giving.
He either:
Isn't being coached to read the field-cant imagine that
Is being told to target only 1 guy-cant imagine that
Doesn't know how to read the D-very possilbe
Doesn't care and will force what he wants-very possible
If he doesn't know how to read the D we have 2 possible issues. Either Roman/Harbs are being horrible teachers or Kap is not mentally able to digest whats happening. While we can all blame the teacher, at some point you have to say the person just isn't going got get it. Maybe Kap is just not smart enough to understand the system while the bullets are flying. On the other hand, if he is just forcing the deep ball no matter what, there really isn't anything we can do aside from benching him for not doing whats right. If we had an Alex type backup maybe we see the full picture...Kap getting benched. But because we don't, we wont see it.
We all know Roman isn't the smartest guy in the world. But can anybody say with a straight face they don't think Kap is being taught fundamentals and the inter workings of the system? We either have a s**tty set of teachers or a crappy student with a possible attitude problem.
And to add that specific play is a WCO play used by a lot of credible NFL coaches. That is not a 1970's only look deep play call. It was the first play of the game after a game where a team dominated us by covering the deep throw. SEA mentioned how easy it was to play vs Kap by leaving the underneath routes wide open. So what did we do first play vs OAK? Roman picked a play to defeat that type of defense. Kap read it incorrectly.
Look at Jay Cutler and many many other QBs who always hold onto the ball for too long looking for the big hitter.
Odds are that it is more likely we Kap is in that mentality rather than JH and Roman being in the don't take what the defense gives you category. Coaches just don't do that, but QBs do it very often.
As for the Kaplan deal, I will go with Greg Cossell analysis and the defense that's played Kap analysis over anyone elses. Everything points to Kap taking a few steps back because he's being forced to learn to be a pocket passer. Just as Steve Young was.
Great points!
He either:
Isn't being coached to read the field - possibly he isn't reading it as well as he should and we make it more difficult by leading the league in 20+ designs/targets/throws (low percentage designs with WR's that are being blanketed d/t predictability).
Is being told to target only 1 guy - we have audio x2 from the coaches on the sidelines reminding CK that if his primary read isn't there, get out of there (pocket) and run.
Doesn't know how to read the D - this is a bit of a myth to me b/c our passing game is actually predicated on reading defense pre and post-snap (i.e. we target quadrants and what the defense does dictates where CK throws, snap the ball with 1 second left with the idea the defense will tell, etc.). So while any QB can be fooled, that doesn't seem to be the case and he continue to have low TO rates with most INT's coming on accuracy/miscommunications/poor decision vs. a defender dropping his route to steal a pick.
Doesn't care and will force what he wants - very possible. I think there is ego involved not only with CK but with HaRoman. The target of Crabtree in last year's NFCCG (the pick) reaked of this to me as well. I also get the impression that if that primary read isn't there, we tend to have our most success with half of our TD's coming off ad lib plays. To me, this is coaching as well.
We either have a s**tty set of teachers or a crappy student with a possible attitude problem - this is the one that scares me! Why would the coaching staff and FO invest some $120M in a guy who wasn't doing exactly what he was told to (i.e. being the good soldier)? He was seen and signed as the LT solution. I think these hard times have humbled CK by magnifying his immaturity and what he needs to do to grow up as a man and as a player. But ego does play a part, no doubt!
Originally posted by Niners816:
I'm not saying this is what's going on, but basically a spot concept is smash concept combined with a curl-flat concept. Again, I'm not saying this is what's happening, but maybe instead of running as one spot concept, kap was looking at it as either a smash(corner & curl) or the curl-flat. Maybe he was looking at the smash instead of the spot. Now that would be unraveling a concept, but maybe that's why he ignored the back.
That could very well be the case as well. CK, like everyone, has certainly regressed, no doubt...then you add in this same design from last year to now, and we've seen it "executed" differently with different receivers targeted. Granted, the coverage in-play should dictate the open receiver or the concept itself should more often than not, lead to Miller being the primary read but why are we seeing such a wide variety of execution off the same design? Things like this have me flash to the off season and review of this "hodge podge" playbook. Again, I honestly don't know and can only throw out theories at this point, but I just picture HaRoman peering through their "Chinese" 2,000 page play book that has designs from every offense in history and streamlining them down to his QB's strengths (long ball off PA) and tinkering with the primary reads in the design as a way to dictate more control on the field.
Since it's the first play of the game, wouldn't that dictate HaRoman game planned towards a Raider tendency here (stop laughing!)? You can clearly see on page 1, the illustration and gif that CK didn't even "look" in Miller's direction once and was targeting the corner route no doubt, as the primary read, from the snap. So, how much of this is the design which "may" dictate the primary read here (and it can change depending on the call-in) and how much of it is really left up to CK pre-snap and post-snap? We all understand the purpose of the design, it's historical ideal and the concept behind it. But I'm just postulating that maybe, just maybe, HaRoman have borrowed these designs and made them their own by adding their own wrinkles to them along with tinkering with the primary reads within them for control. This would be a very simple thing to do. We've all heard CK illustrate that he's just trying to execute the play call by HaRoman (as have all the players now).
This isn't an exercise to excuse CK's own natural growing issues as well but more to try and understand OUR offense and possibly ID how and why DC's have figured our offense out completely while we have no counter to it...and to possibly see more than the QB surface-level.
The bottom line is, after 4 years, the short game has completely been ignored in the game plans. Why? Why, when this is the simplest installment for a QB to learn...the easiest to see...the easiest pass...and the check downs are the highest percentage when in trouble. There HAS to be something coached into these designs that we just are not privy to yet. We continue to lead the NFL in passes over 20-yards and continue to run these long-developing designs despite being completely stuffed on 1st downs and and with no consistent sense of running success (and if we do have success, we go away from it). Something has to be up here...
I'm inline with thl408's thinking that it seems like there is equal blame for the OL, HaRoman's play designs/game plan, lack of adjustments, etc. and CK (and some on the WR's as well this year).
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 13, 2014 at 8:04 AM ]
