What came first, a change in playcalling or signs of an ineffective offense?

I think this would be best answered by the guys who re watch the games on a regular basis. Personally I have problems catching what is going on the first time through unless it is blatantly obvious and I don't record games. Anyway we all know that the offense Kaepernick was running was highly successful through game 1 of 2013 against Green Bay where Kap torched the Packers for 400 yards. Then trouble, the next 4 games Kap averaged less than 150 yards passing and had 3 games with under 50% completions. Was that when they started working in the new offense or was it after that? I can't remember what caused that first run of poor offensive output under Kaepernick. Also what does "gimmick offense" mean to you? I always use it to describe any offense that relies mainly on a quarterback's athleticism instead of his brain, wishbone, read option, etc,etc. Not things like the run and shoot or spread. When I said in another thread gimmick offenses don't last in the NFL a guy used run & shoot as one that did, I don't consider the run and shoot a gimmick.

The offense showed a lot of life when they allowed Kaep to be Kaep (year 2). Outside of that - the offense was underwhelming in year 1, 3, and 4.

Originally posted by Geeked:
The offense showed a lot of life when they allowed Kaep to be Kaep (year 2). Outside of that - the offense was underwhelming in year 1, 3, and 4.

This! In 2012 both Kap & the offense looked good, then it was boring and a lot of what we see this year in 2013 until the playoffs when they allowed Kap to be Kap, it's all about the offensive coaching staff.

the game changed the minute we had to be extra careful with Kaep...

One of the his strenght was lining up and having play what he knows, or should I say, the only way he knows how to play and that is the Pistol Spread Offense... he played this w/a high success at Nevada, got invited in the Senior Bowl and the Scouting Combine because of it, and we had him running this offense all the way to the Super Bowl...

Next thing you know, the coaching staff began realizing that he must be kept safe and healthy at all time, tho I do understand that part, they took away the biggest strength of his game and turned him into a Brady - Manning like type of passer..

so now, all of a sudden, the burden is on his shoulder and it shows that he is NOT a pocket passer.. that's not his game, he never had to read complex defense at Nevada, and that's also why he has that mentality of locking into ONE receiver once mind is set up, and uses the power of his arm to get the person the ball..

rewind to all our game this year, and all our big play came on a broken play..

the coaches got him believing that he's Peyton and Brady that up to this point, he still trying to read a defense before the snap count, thinking he sees something that really isn't there is also the reason why you often see this guy running out of time before getting the ball snap..

While we watch Kaep regress even as a runner, it makes you wanna scratch your head when R-Wil (of Seattle) stil gain yardage after yardage on the same plays that Kaep used to capitalized on..

on the worst part is, the coaching style made him believe that he is a greater passer as Brady and Manning are..

To 9moon's point. You also have to remember Kaep played with a broken foot for most of last year... soooo, the 49ers have been trying to be more careful with their QB. The RGIII -> NFL saying you can smash Keap if you want because he's acting like a ball career for a split second (I guess it's ok if you PA thougth???) -> the Refs allowing the Cheathawks stomp on Keap's foot on the sideline for giggles. The coaches had to start to modify to a degree how exposed Keap was going to be.

Remember, the NFL isn't equal, the slide rule applied to everyone except Young. When Young would slide the refs would throw a flag if the defender didn't use his head as a makeshift trampoline...

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Quite honestly BobS, I just think the rest of the league caught up. Running game (new formations and "jumbo packages") was countered completely by Harbaugh's second year. The zone-read-option was countered a year after. The Ravens figured it out in the Super Bowl and it has been a copied template we've seen since. The 49ers have yet to answer it.

This. The offense was an "innovative throwback" in years 1 & 2. Now defenses already know the offense and the tendencies and don't show their hand like they did previous. Instead of evolving its devolved into this weird clock running spread wtf offense. This team should be living or dying by the run and yet its the first thing in the game plan that seems to go out the window.

Roman the running genius won't even fall on his own sword by running the ball, instead he is forcing a spread offense with no speed anywhere and laying it all on Kap who obviously can't handle it. Roman is a POS. If there was ever a year to lean on Gore along with Hyde it was this one, but it wouldn't of mattered I guess… he would of called 7 run plays in a row and wonder how the defense caught on instead of a well timed play action.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Quite honestly BobS, I just think the rest of the league caught up. Running game (new formations and "jumbo packages") was countered completely by Harbaugh's second year. The zone-read-option was countered a year after. The Ravens figured it out in the Super Bowl and it has been a copied template we've seen since. The 49ers have yet to answer it.

I agree. There seems to be a very large void when it comes to designing a semi sophisticated passing attack. The passing schemes need to be varied. If the opposing defense is loading the box, then it's quick hitters that take advantage of the front heavy formations. Is this CK's bread and butter? Not at the moment, but you work on this throughout the week.

I watch other teams and I get "route running envy" as it seems one receiver is setting up another receiver for a nice catch. I watch the Niners and I see none of this. Granted, much of the void is being caused by Vernon "if I don't get a pay raise, I'll just take my ball and go home" Davis. In the past, he'd be the guy who attacked the middle of the field taking pressure off the receivers. Also fast forward a few years ago when Randy Moss was a legitimate deep threat which took the top off the defense. Things such as these are REALLY making it tough sledding this year in the passing department.

But if I'm Jim Harbaugh, I relish the challenge. I admit my weaknesses and willingly work with a new OC to get these problems resolved. I don't act like a little b*tch and run away with my tail between my legs. I've lost a lot of respect for Jim Harbaugh this year. Just don't think Jim Harbaugh is much of a team player.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Quite honestly BobS, I just think the rest of the league caught up. Running game (new formations and "jumbo packages") was countered completely by Harbaugh's second year. The zone-read-option was countered a year after. The Ravens figured it out in the Super Bowl and it has been a copied template we've seen since. The 49ers have yet to answer it.

Ravens didn't figure anything out we had 468 yards in that game. The defense just let us down.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Quite honestly BobS, I just think the rest of the league caught up. Running game (new formations and "jumbo packages") was countered completely by Harbaugh's second year. The zone-read-option was countered a year after. The Ravens figured it out in the Super Bowl and it has been a copied template we've seen since. The 49ers have yet to answer it.

Ravens put out a good template, but how did Kap still manage to throw for 300+ at 10+ yards per attempt?

Somewhere in the intermediate routes they did not have it figured out THEN. With just 16 completions, and most not short passes, it was ALL downfield from my memory (I refuse to rewatch that game, although I might be ready to do so now after all this time and to see CK perform better and perhaps watch him more carefully with our more critical eye and try to spot the warning signs).

Maybe it was our personnel groupings (Moss, Delanie) that were better suited for CK. Also, don't forget about Manningham -- a receiver with deep threat abilities at the time better than what we have now at the WR position. Unavailable for the SB, but that 2 or 3 game stretch before he and Kendall Hunter got hurt was possibly our peak offense under Harbaugh.

I've said it before.......we need a legit two TEs in this offense. Always have had that in the blocking department but McDonald nor Carrier have shown to be on Delanie's level in the mismatch department.

I'd like to see us replicate the 2012 personnel groupings but with better players -- Moss is easily bettered but Delanie not as much. Perhaps Vance is ready, but we haven't seen it.

A strong OL with two legit TEs and we can absolutely smash teams with just Boldin and Crabtree/Johnson. Upgrades at WR are nice, but not vital IMO for this team with the right power in those areas mentioned.

Also what does it say that CK's first game starting each season ('12 Bears, '13 Packers, '14 Cowboys), the guy looks so freaking dominant?

Maybe it falls into the same issue with how good we are at opening drives (#1 I think), but can't readjust as needed.

I don't ever remember seeing 3 and 4 wr sets before this year. The scheme this year is dramatically different from years past and certainly not the strength of this team.

JT hit the nail on the head...loss of Delaine was a huge blow to our scheme. We are alot easier to prepare for now.

I was hoping one of our film watching gurus will put up a chronological order on the chain of events which led us to where we are now. It doesn't seem that Kaepernick is running any less, but his YPC has fallen off dramatically, is that because of defenses using a spy? less actual designed runs? more 8 men in the box?

Well they finally did something I posted about months back. (Have Boldin run Delaine routes)

But what I don't understand is why didn't we try to use all of our other players earlier in the season....when they were healthy why not have McDonald featured, instead of having him blocked all game. Why not have Carrier run Delaine's routes? Or just use him in the role. We could have still had the other TEs in the game. Carrier has improved his run blocking.

Either way teams know we don't use certain players AT all...so much so they abandon these said players during a play to jump routes to our more used receivers.

Why not tell Kap to throw check downs to Hyde ( I really believe it's the coaches regarding Kap not throwing check downs...I mean he has not done or looked at it 99% of the time this season)

Originally posted by JTsBiggestFan:

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Quite honestly BobS, I just think the rest of the league caught up. Running game (new formations and "jumbo packages") was countered completely by Harbaugh's second year. The zone-read-option was countered a year after. The Ravens figured it out in the Super Bowl and it has been a copied template we've seen since. The 49ers have yet to answer it.

Ravens put out a good template, but how did Kap still manage to throw for 300+ at 10+ yards per attempt?

Somewhere in the intermediate routes they did not have it figured out THEN. With just 16 completions, and most not short passes, it was ALL downfield from my memory (I refuse to rewatch that game, although I might be ready to do so now after all this time and to see CK perform better and perhaps watch him more carefully with our more critical eye and try to spot the warning signs).

Maybe it was our personnel groupings (Moss, Delanie) that were better suited for CK. Also, don't forget about Manningham -- a receiver with deep threat abilities at the time better than what we have now at the WR position. Unavailable for the SB, but that 2 or 3 game stretch before he and Kendall Hunter got hurt was possibly our peak offense under Harbaugh.

I've said it before.......we need a legit two TEs in this offense. Always have had that in the blocking department but McDonald nor Carrier have shown to be on Delanie's level in the mismatch department.

I'd like to see us replicate the 2012 personnel groupings but with better players -- Moss is easily bettered but Delanie not as much. Perhaps Vance is ready, but we haven't seen it.

A strong OL with two legit TEs and we can absolutely smash teams with just Boldin and Crabtree/Johnson. Upgrades at WR are nice, but not vital IMO for this team with the right power in those areas mentioned.

Bingo!! I said earlier this offense really misses Delanie Walker and those 2-3 TE sets.