Week 11 - 2014: Thoughts after rewatching the game...

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

I think the offensive problems yesterday came from greed and impatience, though I can't be sure because I can't tell what's going on in the defensive backfield. I want to say that on all those long throws down the field, there were more open targets in the intermediate to short range. One play where I feel rather sure about this is the bomb to Vance. There was another option running across the middle of the field, but Kap wanted to target Vance who had zero separation on his defender while there was another defender in the immediate area. Also worth mentioning, Gore was found on a check release and was able to net good yardage (+8) on a 1st down play. That should have been done more often, then take the intermediate/deep shots.

I remember that one as well. I was screaming at the TV, "Obvioulsy Vance is covered (double covered IIRC) so just take the next option, which WAS open at the shorter-intermediate range. Just take it...everything doens't have to be a chunk HR play!"

Enough to boil my blood.

Let's face it, this is a problem that keeps on repeating itself.

As HC, JH sucks when it comes to offensive accountability. He's the one who sees this week after week in game film review and the same problem continues week after week.

WTF do they do in coaching Kap up?

Originally posted by Big_Daddy:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Big_Daddy:

Originally posted by thl408:
There seems to be two criticisms that is going on here in the Zone, and sometimes, from the same posters that are rather contradictory of one another. On one hand, posters are saying the 49ers passing routes are too simplistic, on the other hand, you have posters (sometimes the very same posters) saying that the routes are too long in developing. I want these two sides to debate with one another while I grab the popcorn.

During the gameday thread, it was mentioned that the 49ers too often go spread with their formations. That this forces the WRs to beat their CB one on one without the help of complimentary/adjacent routes. First, it makes much less sense to go bunch formation when defenses are primarily playing zone coverage, which is what the 49ers face most of the time when defenses come with a 4 man rush. All that does is condense the area of the field that the zone defenders have to cover. The majority of the times they face man coverage is when the defense comes with a blitz. When facing zone, using a spread formation achieves a natural horizontal stretch due to formation. The downside is that the 49ers rarely ever run out of the spread formation so it's a huge tipoff to the defense that it's a pass play. This is a pet peeve of mine that I have expressed multiple times in the past - they simply don't run the ball enough out of passing formations. The one time this season that they actually focused on running out of a spread look I cut up every single one of those runs (STL game 1). But I digress.

Here are the reasons why the 49ers spread the field and run "simple" routes. I'm not implying it's the right thing to do, but this is why they do it.
- Get a horizontal stretch of the zone defense via formation
- Get their WRs, who are good route runners, out into space.
- Give Kap simpler reads. One vs one reads where he only has to read leverage of CB versus route of WR. As opposed to concept reads where he reads multiple defenders at once in a confined space.
- Since the OL has been shaky with pass pro, this allows for quick timing throws when Kap chooses to go with his first read. We see this a lot when Kap throws a simple Curl over the middle.
- When an OL is shaky, you help out the OL by running shorter developing routes and concepts. Dialing up double moves and intermediate/deep crossing routes is pushing the limits what this OL can do with regards to pass protection.

Simple routes are bad because the defense can step in quickly and run the routes for us, which is why our receivers are the only ones in the NFL who can't get separation. Granted, this wasn't my observation, just the observation of someone who was at the game.

Long routes are also bad when the defense is bringing in more people than we can block

Before the Redzone I thought Roman did ok. Once in the redzone, we all know the deal. But the problem most fans have, and I agree, that the talent level of this offense is as good as any in the league. 3 points off 5 turnovers is really bad.

Oh I agree that on many pass plays, there are a couple routes (not all of the routes) that are considered "simple" - curls, short outs. It's as clear as day when I see the film. But the reason why this is done is because the Oline forces the hand. As soon as more complex, longer developing routes are run, we will complain about why the routes are not shorter in duration to develop because the Oline can't pass pro consistently.

When I mean longer developing routes, I don't necessarily mean deep routes. Intermediate crossing routes take a while to develop, but aren't considered deep. A bunch formation makes 3 simple routes look complex because they are run out of a bunch, but that takes time to develop because the more bunched the WRs are, the longer it can take to break apart from one another. Point is, the Oline restricts the type of routes an OC can call. I agree with this usage of "simple" routes because I am sick of watching Kap have to evade a rusher before getting to his second read.

We're definitely on the same page, tho to clarify, when I say simple, I don't mean the actual route that is run, it's more about overall scheme.

We seem to run so many plays that it's actually quite simple to gameplan against us. When you run so many kinds of plays, you fail to add layers to those plays. I'm pretty sure this was one of Walsh's greatest gifts. Run dive action and run the dive... run dive action but run the counter.... run dive action but run a naked bootleg

Our formations telegraph our plays. We're not beating anyone in a game of chess... if we don't road grade the defense we lose... I guess that's what I mean by simple. No layers.

Oh you said routes, so I thought you meant routes.

When you say 'layers', do you mean different plays executed out of the same formation? That's what I got out of the example you gave with dive action. Dive action with a naked bootleg won a playoff game vs NO. Walsh's offense didn't have many sub packages (same 2rb/1te/2wr), while HaRo's has a lot of personnel substitutions. That made it easier for Walsh to give the same look repeatedly, where the defense didn't know what was coming.

Originally posted by NCommand:

This was the oddest play I have ever seen! Slips on CK's foot and Miller heal knocks the ball out and we end up losing the ball 30 yards down the field? W.T.F!? I was worried the Football Gods were going to crush us in NY after that.

That said, what was up with the Beckham catch OOB (it was close and get it but hmmm)...then, running into the kicker on 4th and 2? The Ventrone call? When is recovering a punt treated like a WR catch that has to be carried out throughout the entireity of the play? There was another one as well that seemed shady in the final 4 minutes.

Originally posted by NCommand:

This was the oddest play I have ever seen! Slips on CK's foot and Miller heal knocks the ball out and we end up losing the ball 30 yards down the field? W.T.F!? I was worried the Football Gods were going to crush us in NY after that.

That said, what was up with the Beckham catch OOB (it was close and get it but hmmm)...then, running into the kicker on 4th and 2? The Ventrone call? When is recovering a punt treated like a WR catch that has to be carried out throughout the entireity of the play? There was another one as well that seemed shady in the final 4 minutes.

I thought the recovery rule was changed after what happened when Bowmann recovered last year in Seattle, but the ball was stripped in the scrum?!! I thought for sure it was and this would fall under that particular rule! Ball in hands, knee down..... what's difficult in making that call? I was screaming at the TV for the challenge, got it, and thought it was ours.... SMDH

Oh, and I thought we were done too when the first "bad news bears fumble" after getting to the 15 on a very nice opening drive. Hoping that just set a bad offensive tone and the D came through with some big time plays!!

Originally posted by thl408:

Oh you said routes, so I thought you meant routes.

When you say 'layers', do you mean different plays executed out of the same formation? That's what I got out of the example you gave with dive action. Dive action with a naked bootleg won a playoff game vs NO. Walsh's offense didn't have many sub packages (same 2rb/1te/2wr), while HaRo's has a lot of personnel substitutions. That made it easier for Walsh to give the same look repeatedly, where the defense didn't know what was coming.

Funny, we did this a lot in Harbaugh's first year. He ran lots of different plays out of the same formation that it made defenses very unsure how to commit.... sometimes catching them to over commit and catch them off guard.

Lots of this seems to be Roman's so called NEW offense that he talked about this offseason. Just go back to what worked, with mixing in some new things that maybe are still evolving and have potential. I would like to see more running from spread formations with Hyde.

I was at the game. It started snowing at one point.

I don't know what was on TV, but there were at least 2 occasions where Vernon Davis was not covered.....at all. One I believe he was standing all alone on the Giant 20 yard line on a third down play.

There were also a couple plays where Kap needlessly panicked only to have a WR wide open 1 second later.

I know this happens to everyone in every game, but our offense is pathetic no matter how you want to look at it.

Originally posted by Stanley:
I was at the game. It started snowing at one point.

I don't know what was on TV, but there were at least 2 occasions where Vernon Davis was not covered.....at all. One I believe he was standing all alone on the Giant 20 yard line on a third down play.

There were also a couple plays where Kap needlessly panicked only to have a WR wide open 1 second later.

I know this happens to everyone in every game, but our offense is pathetic no matter how you want to look at it.

If those observations are correct, and I don't doubt any of it, then again - my pet peeve with this offense - is pass protection. It may be that Colin just hasn't gotten that trust with his O-line yet because he's experienced that 8 sack performance against the rams and then that followed up with a multiple sack performance in New Orleans.

*Maybe* more than a WR, we might just need better O-linemen that can **both** run block and pass block decently in next years draft. I do know that if you give Colin 4+ seconds in the pocket, he can pick any defense apart with that rocket arm and great accuracy, and yes, I think he also has some very good touch on his passes.