Jerry Rice said bring back the "West Coast Offense" on the NFL Network this morn

Originally posted by Marvin49:
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Um.........

WCO in its purest form doesn't exist anymore. Every offense uses elements of it.

...including SF which uses ALOT of it. I'm reading complaints here about the Pistol and Read-Option as if they are the problem...which is really odd to me considering how little they are using either formation.

Hate to break it to a number of you but the Niners are running quite a few standard sets using WCO elements. I know the default position of Niner fans is that when offense doesn't work they should return to an offense that hasn't existed in over a decade because that all they know...

...but it really doesn't matter 2 st*ts what offense you run when you are giving up 8 sacks.

I'm reading all this BS about Kap and what he can't do...and meanwhile he was sacked 8 times yet still threw for 200+ yards, had a QB rating of 97.7, didn't thow a pick, and got them in position to win at the end (and likely DID had the refs not screwed up).

This reactionary BS that has become the staple of Ninertalk really turns me off to the entire site sometimes.

Wait, wait, wait...every team, including ours runs some WCO "designs" but very few teams run WCO principles and full time WCO philosophies. That's the difference...that's the foundation many fans want to get back to and build from again. And yes, you can continue to evolve the passing designs for today's game while still instilling the WCO principles.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Precisely....but wait, that's just madness.

Clearly, all problems are Kaps. Losses are always Kaps fault. Don't you know that? LOL.

The O-line has been a problem ALL SEASON, yet all I read is that Roman sucks and Kap is regressing. WTF are you guys watching?

I think if Trent had to do it over again, they would have taken care of the Boone situation a lot sooner. It would have led to better OL continuity and maybe Boone wouldn't have had to go thru is preason during the actual regular season.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Very few of the sacks this year have been at the 2-second mark...most have been at the 3+ second mark. Most WCO passing designs provide multiple layers and options for the QB and are designed to get the ball out under 3 seconds. That's a win-win for any QB and OL. Watching the Denver game reminded me of that where I only saw one pass...one pass...the entire game that was over 3 seconds. It was 4 seconds b/c the design was literally, for Manning to do a 360-spin after a fake handoff and hit the crossing WR in stride for a huge gain. That spin took an extra second.

I was basing my opinion on a stat they showed at the 27 pass mark last game. At that point kap had been sacked 8 times and hurried 15 times. I think in the context of our current offense moving the spot is the best option. Although I did like what we where doing on the first half vs ari with the short pass game. Honestly, I'll take both because this current (14 sacks in two games) is just about the most rediculous s**t I've seen in a decade.

You just have to hope its darkest before the light, because ole fat Rob Ryan is licking his chops ready to heat up the blitz this upcoming Sunday.

Oh yeah! Goctha...that makes perfect sense. Yeah, we weren't going to change the passing routes so you might as well get CK out on the run. If the DE stays out wide and rushes CK, he can still throw the ball away, beat him and use his legs or, my personal favorite, ad lib on the broken play and win.

BTW; You're cracking me up!

Originally posted by 9moon:
We actually were running the WC with Alex Smith, and it was going well because Harbaugh controlled it.. but we fell inlove with Kaep's talent after the Chicago Bears game and out-smarted ourselves..

All of a sudden, both Harbaugh and Roman became a Pistol Professors, then added their variation of Read Option.. and it was the END OF IT ALL!!

Yup.

And now Smith is running it even better in KC.

Personally I think Kap could improve if he was coached to run WCO by someone who really knows how to coach that style, but that man is not here right now, because it isn't Harbaugh.

Originally posted by Rascal:
No way in hell can Kap run a WCO.

If you want to go full WCO, start by drafting another QB before we start talking.

Such total, utter, and complete BS.

WCO wasn't static. It adapted to player strengths. That was the entire idea behind it.

So sick of the Kap hate here. Peeps here b*tch and complain about him with no memory of the past. They don't remember exact same BS said about Steve. "They'll never win with Steve".

Whats even funnier is that the Niners are RUNNING a WCO. Harbaugh coached at Stanford and was hired by...wait for it....BILL WALSH.

I see all this BS about dropping the gimmick Pistol and Read/option...but jeez....when was the last time you actually saw them call a read/option?

Originally posted by captveg:

Originally posted by 9moon:
We actually were running the WC with Alex Smith, and it was going well because Harbaugh controlled it.. but we fell inlove with Kaep's talent after the Chicago Bears game and out-smarted ourselves..

All of a sudden, both Harbaugh and Roman became a Pistol Professors, then added their variation of Read Option.. and it was the END OF IT ALL!!

Yup.

And now Smith is running it even better in KC.

Personally I think Kap could improve if he was coached to run WCO by someone who really knows how to coach that style, but that man is not here right now, because it isn't Harbaugh.

Or, maybe the 49ers have been running the exact same game plan for the past four years. And outside of the plays that are specifically geared towards Kaep, It's the EXACT SAME OFFENSE Smith was running.

The only real deviation took place when Kaep had to take over and the game plan had to change. Then, right in time for the Super Bowl. The game plan went right back to the one that started the year, and each subsequent year.


In the end, if the defense is comfortable completely selling out on the first read, with NO hesitation after the snap, you're predictable. Not many NFL teams are able to win when they are predictable. And this issue was identified in YEAR TWO of the Harbaugh era; the 49ers acquired a TE coach because of the issue.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Wait, wait, wait...every team, including ours runs some WCO "designs" but very few teams run WCO principles and full time WCO philosophies. That's the difference...that's the foundation many fans want to get back to and build from again. And yes, you can continue to evolve the passing designs for today's game while still instilling the WCO principles.

What's crazy about it, is at times it looks as smooth as you would want it too. The Dino route vs stl on that Monday night is still a personal fav. You have times where kap is going thru his reads and hitting the right guys. Then you have times like Sunday with zero pass pro and false starts after false starts.

If I had to put my finger on it is a lack continuity on the OL thru injuries and hold outs is putting a cloud over the entire offense. It's leading to a decrease in run effectiveness and struggles in protection. Getting this aspect fix quickly will have a great impact on our offense as it stands.

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Don't forget a wc qb needs to have touch. Kap has none. I have acid reflux everytime he thows a bullet when all he needs is a soft touch pass.

Yeah I'm suprised Kaep doesn't have Gore line up 10 yards behind him so he can throw it to him on running plays.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
................

Um.........

WCO in its purest form doesn't exist anymore. Every offense uses elements of it.

...including SF which uses ALOT of it. I'm reading complaints here about the Pistol and Read-Option as if they are the problem...which is really odd to me considering how little they are using either formation.

Hate to break it to a number of you but the Niners are running quite a few standard sets using WCO elements. I know the default position of Niner fans is that when offense doesn't work they should return to an offense that hasn't existed in over a decade because that all they know...

...but it really doesn't matter 2 st*ts what offense you run when you are giving up 8 sacks.

I'm reading all this BS about Kap and what he can't do...and meanwhile he was sacked 8 times yet still threw for 200+ yards, had a QB rating of 97.7, didn't thow a pick, and got them in position to win at the end (and likely DID had the refs not screwed up).

This reactionary BS that has become the staple of Ninertalk really turns me off to the entire site sometimes.

Wait, wait, wait...every team, including ours runs some WCO "designs" but very few teams run WCO principles and full time WCO philosophies. That's the difference...that's the foundation many fans want to get back to and build from again. And yes, you can continue to evolve the passing designs for today's game while still instilling the WCO principles.

I'm with you NC. WCO, in my observation, is not just running WCO plays. It is ball control passing using rhythm dropbacks. It is a team wide philosophy. The 49ers didn't do this enough to be considered anything close to a WCO...until this season. All those spread 5 WR rhythm throws we saw versus DAL, ARI is the current 49er version of WCO. Those short curl routes over the middle that went for 6-8 yards, that to me is ball control passing as Kap quickly got rid of the ball after hitting the top of his dropback.

Marvin, I get that the Oline is in shambles. I also think that it is the root of the 49ers offensive struggles - not Kap, not coaching (perhaps Oline position coaching, but not in terms of playcalling). I am going over the Rams game now and it is atrocious the way the Oline was playing. I'd like to set that aside for now since we all have acknowledged the Oline's troubles.

The topic is about the 49ers going WCO and ditching "the read option stuff". I believe to go WCO, the offense needs to focus solely on that and that alone. It is too much to put on Kap's plate to go back and forth with so many different styles when Kap is just learning how to grasp elements of WCO, keeping in mind the offense he came from in college. To go WCO, any coach would need to have Kap focus on footwork, first and foremost. Reign in Kap's free styling tendencies to give him rigid structure that is WCO. I still see Kap all over the place with his dropback footwork, while acknowledging his Oline doesn't allow him to dropback comfortably. I know your take is that the 49ers are a lot of WCO right now and I understand why that's your take.
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Personally, don't care if the 49ers go full WCO or not. I like ground and pound, run-first just as much as ball control, pass-first like how Joe/Steve used to do it. I get the nostalgia, but do whatever moves the chains while catering to the players' skillsets. I actually like it when posters and analysts say that the 49ers "have no offensive identity". That's actually what Jim is going for.. He wants to do everything effectively and I see huge potential in that. That, in itself, is a system and it is an identity. It is a shapeshifter identity. I definitely see lapses where the 49ers have a WCO mentality in this year's games (DAL, ARI, parts of other games). My main point, I guess, is that for Kap to quickly grasp the WCO philosophy (footwork, quickly finding checkdowns), should the team choose to go that direction, there needs to be full time practice and devotion to it. There is no way the 49ers are practicing it full time with all the other elements in their current playbook - one of which is the power run game. All that does is slow down the learning curve with regards to going WCO.

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Don't forget a wc qb needs to have touch. Kap has none. I have acid reflux everytime he thows a bullet when all he needs is a soft touch pass.

Yeah I'm suprised Kaep doesn't have Gore line up 10 yards behind him so he can throw it to him on running plays.

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Don't forget a wc qb needs to have touch. Kap has none. I have acid reflux everytime he thows a bullet when all he needs is a soft touch pass.

Yeah I'm suprised Kaep doesn't have Gore line up 10 yards behind him so he can throw it to him on running plays.

Originally posted by Baldie:

Originally posted by JoseCortez:
Don't forget a wc qb needs to have touch. Kap has none. I have acid reflux everytime he thows a bullet when all he needs is a soft touch pass.

Yeah I'm suprised Kaep doesn't have Gore line up 10 yards behind him so he can throw it to him on running plays.

loll, that's a new one.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by Marvin49:

................

Um.........

WCO in its purest form doesn't exist anymore. Every offense uses elements of it.

...including SF which uses ALOT of it. I'm reading complaints here about the Pistol and Read-Option as if they are the problem...which is really odd to me considering how little they are using either formation.

Hate to break it to a number of you but the Niners are running quite a few standard sets using WCO elements. I know the default position of Niner fans is that when offense doesn't work they should return to an offense that hasn't existed in over a decade because that all they know...

...but it really doesn't matter 2 st*ts what offense you run when you are giving up 8 sacks.

I'm reading all this BS about Kap and what he can't do...and meanwhile he was sacked 8 times yet still threw for 200+ yards, had a QB rating of 97.7, didn't thow a pick, and got them in position to win at the end (and likely DID had the refs not screwed up).

This reactionary BS that has become the staple of Ninertalk really turns me off to the entire site sometimes.

I think it does speak to kap's talent that he is on pace for a 3900 yard 24 td 10 int season with a 64% comp and a 95 qb rating, given the state of our OL.

Precisely....but wait, that's just madness.

Clearly, all problems are Kaps. Losses are always Kaps fault. Don't you know that? LOL.

The O-line has been a problem ALL SEASON, yet all I read is that Roman sucks and Kap is regressing. WTF are you guys watching?

Truth

Originally posted by thl408:

I'm with you NC. WCO, in my observation, is not just running WCO plays. It is ball control passing using rhythm dropbacks. It is a team wide philosophy. The 49ers didn't do this enough to be considered anything close to a WCO...until this season. All those spread 5 WR rhythm throws we saw versus DAL, ARI is the current 49er version of WCO. Those short curl routes over the middle that went for 6-8 yards, that to me is ball control passing as Kap quickly got rid of the ball after hitting the top of his dropback.

Marvin, I get that the Oline is in shambles. I also think that it is the root of the 49ers offensive struggles - not Kap, not coaching (perhaps Oline position coaching, but not in terms of playcalling). I am going over the Rams game now and it is atrocious the way the Oline was playing. I'd like to set that aside for now since we all have acknowledged the Oline's troubles.

The topic is about the 49ers going WCO and ditching "the read option stuff". I believe to go WCO, the offense needs to focus solely on that and that alone. It is too much to put on Kap's plate to go back and forth with so many different styles when Kap is just learning how to grasp elements of WCO, keeping in mind the offense he came from in college. To go WCO, any coach would need to have Kap focus on footwork, first and foremost. Reign in Kap's free styling tendencies to give him rigid structure that is WCO. I still see Kap all over the place with his dropback footwork, while acknowledging his Oline doesn't allow him to dropback comfortably. I know your take is that the 49ers are a lot of WCO right now and I understand why that's your take.
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.
.
.
Personally, don't care if the 49ers go full WCO or not. I like ground and pound, run-first just as much as ball control, pass-first like how Joe/Steve used to do it. I get the nostalgia, but do whatever moves the chains while catering to the players' skillsets. I actually like it when posters and analysts say that the 49ers "have no offensive identity". That's actually what Jim is going for.. He wants to do everything effectively and I see huge potential in that. That, in itself, is a system and it is an identity. It is a shapeshifter identity. I definitely see lapses where the 49ers have a WCO mentality in this year's games (DAL, ARI, parts of other games). My main point, I guess, is that for Kap to quickly grasp the WCO philosophy (footwork, quickly finding checkdowns), should the team choose to go that direction, there needs to be full time practice and devotion to it. There is no way the 49ers are practicing it full time with all the other elements in their current playbook - one of which is the power run game. All that does is slow down the learning curve with regards to going WCO.

You are totally right with the "shapeshifter" offense. There just seems to be a lack of polish at times and that's the frustrating part. Outside of the Denver game, we could have won every game.

I know it sounds overly simplistic, but we need to do what we do better. That is the only thing that gonna save this season.

Kap is not even close to being capable of running a WCO right now. When we lose, it is primarily directly correlated to Kap turning the ball over. WCO is all about ball security and taking what the defense gives you.

Kap doesn't take what the defense gives, he just throws it to Crabstrees.