Jerry Rice said bring back the "West Coast Offense" on the NFL Network this morn

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:
If they want to go full WCO, then bring in coaches that can teach it and believe in it. I have no confidence that Roman can teach it. Nothing tells me that Harbaugh believes in it. WCO is more than just a few OG plays from the 80's here and there. It is a full buy in to the philosophy. Ball control passing, based on timing.

I don't think the 49ers have the personnel to do it. A WCO needs to run screen plays and it is much better suited in a zone blocking run scheme. The 49ers Oline can do neither effectively enough. It is also ludicrous to do this mid season.

My God, I could NOT agree with this more. Enough of the hodge-podge offense. You need to run WCO designs WITH WCO principles and philosophies.

And yes, I do believe that CK would be able to run a WCO ala Steve Young. It will take a couple years to install and be fully operational and there may be a few changes to personnel along the way, but in the end, we'd be better for it! The changes need to be made this off season, first thing.

Kap seems like a smart dude, so yeah, I think he can absorb good coaching from a good coach. He is still a ball of clay imo, but the longer Kap is not exposed to full WCO, the longer it will take for him to learn it. What's tough is that if the 49ers move to WCO, it requires a coaching staff change, drafting changes - changes that may take more than one offseason. Then comes the growing pains that go along with a system overhaul. As fans, are we okay with this? When Kap must make a quick decision to throw the ball on timing and it results in an INT, are we going to blast him? We can't because that's growing pains.

It would be more ideal to have the system and coaches in place, then acquire the QB to run it. What NYG is doing is borderline reckless. To have Eli change systems this late in his career is a tall order for an established vet QB that has been in a quasi run and shoot system. We are seeing the growing pains associated with the system overhaul. If Eli is smart, he will get better and better as the year goes on which it seems like he is, but the season has been nearly gutted in doing so (I understand that NYG defense is poor so not all of NYGs losses are because of Eli).

Yeah, one sentence into your post I was immediately thinking of the NY Giants (first-year WCO) myself and then you covered it perfectly.

It's true...there will have to be a totally new offensivce coaching staff save for Rathman but at this juncture, is any fan happy with ANYONE on our offensive coaching staff? You might as well clean house and introduce a new foundation, philosophy and prepare the draft for WCO-type of players.

And like you said, the next step after that is setting up realistic expectations for fans and the media. If everything is ideal, we "may" be able to get the machine rolling at the end of year 2 but realistically, it takes a good 3 years before you're rolling and that's with all the right parts in place and CK mastering the QB position. That said, if we continue to have a top ranked defense, equal ST's and an average offense en route to moving up the rankings, perhaps that's OK for fans? Ball and TOP-controlled offense, coupled with stellar defense and ST is how we've won over the past 3 years anyhow.

Originally posted by thl408:
If they want to go full WCO, then bring in coaches that can teach it and believe in it. I have no confidence that Roman can teach it. Nothing tells me that Harbaugh believes in it. WCO is more than just a few OG plays from the 80's here and there. It is a full buy in to the philosophy. Ball control passing, based on timing.

I don't think the 49ers have the personnel to do it. A WCO needs to run screen plays and it is much better suited in a zone blocking run scheme. The 49ers Oline can do neither effectively enough. It is also ludicrous to do this mid season.

This BIG TIME!

Originally posted by Geeked:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by thl408:
If they want to go full WCO, then bring in coaches that can teach it and believe in it. I have no confidence that Roman can teach it. Nothing tells me that Harbaugh believes in it. WCO is more than just a few OG plays from the 80's here and there. It is a full buy in to the philosophy. Ball control passing, based on timing.

I don't think the 49ers have the personnel to do it. A WCO needs to run screen plays and it is much better suited in a zone blocking run scheme. The 49ers Oline can do neither effectively enough. It is also ludicrous to do this mid season.

Lacking the ability to run a screen is killing us. This line needs to be refreshed with more athletic guys.

I love Roman's excuse for not running the screen. Does he realize that the 49ers were running the screen VERY WELL with Gogan and Brown. Hell, I think they were running the screen with Allen.

I know it sounds lame, but I believe it because I see it. Every time the 49ers try to run a screen to the left/right, the Olinemen get out flanked by the LBs. I won't dismiss poor coaching, but I see no ability for the interior Olinemen to get to the edges to be in place and lead the convoy of blockers that the RB should have once he catches the ball. The 49ers ran a middle screen versus STL and it worked. They also ran a screen right and it failed.

Originally posted by mtl_49er:
not a chance, there is no way kap can run the WCO.

you need to :
a) make strong pre-snap reads - adjust protections
b) have good timing
c) quick decision making
d) yet be patient and take what is there
e) release the ball quickly
f) go quickly through progressions

I don't see kap having any of these skills. WCO requires a cerebral QB. not jay cutler with speed

This dude only has 5 posts on the zone and his stuff is already better than 90% of what gets posted here

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by thl408:
If they want to go full WCO, then bring in coaches that can teach it and believe in it. I have no confidence that Roman can teach it. Nothing tells me that Harbaugh believes in it. WCO is more than just a few OG plays from the 80's here and there. It is a full buy in to the philosophy. Ball control passing, based on timing.

I don't think the 49ers have the personnel to do it. A WCO needs to run screen plays and it is much better suited in a zone blocking run scheme. The 49ers Oline can do neither effectively enough. It is also ludicrous to do this mid season.

Lacking the ability to run a screen is killing us. This line needs to be refreshed with more athletic guys.

It was pretty bad...even the one we ran that thl highlighted, neither Staley or Martin even got what I would classify as a "block downfield." In fcat, Martin almost took out Gore. LOL. That said, it still picked up 9 yards. You'd think by now, this type of play would be practiced over and over and over again to combat the run blitz (stacking the box) we've seen for 3.5 straight years now though!

Kap is not a WCO QB, his footwork is horrible and you need footwork in a WCO it's not just all arm strength. Also the receivers will have to be disciplined in their routes, hard to do that when you have a QB who bails from the pocket early.

Originally posted by NCommand:

It was pretty bad...even the one we ran that thl highlighted, neither Staley or Martin even got what I would classify as a "block downfield." In fcat, Martin almost took out Gore. LOL. That said, it still picked up 9 yards. You'd think by now, this type of play would be practiced over and over and over again to combat the run blitz (stacking the box) we've seen for 3.5 straight years now though!

With as bad as the OL has been, I think the answer right now is to keep kap moving. Let's keep moving the launch point. Waggles and Playaction slide stuff. It's funny we seem to have one to two really nice plays on PA slide. Let's start wearing it out and specifically on first down since it's based on a run. I would also incorporate spider y banana more and more on first down. I think moving the launch point could help slow down the pressure. Also odds are kap will make a big play running these sort of plays.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:
It was pretty bad...even the one we ran that thl highlighted, neither Staley or Martin even got what I would classify as a "block downfield." In fcat, Martin almost took out Gore. LOL. That said, it still picked up 9 yards. You'd think by now, this type of play would be practiced over and over and over again to combat the run blitz (stacking the box) we've seen for 3.5 straight years now though!

With as bad as the OL has been, I think the answer right now is to keep kap moving. Let's keep moving the launch point. Waggles and Playaction slide stuff. It's funny we seem to have one to two really nice plays on PA slide. Let's start wearing it out and specifically on first down since it's based on a run. I would also incorporate spider y banana more and more on first down. I think moving the launch point could help slow down the pressure. Also odds are kap will make a big play running these sort of plays.

Very few of the sacks this year have been at the 2-second mark...most have been at the 3+ second mark. Most WCO passing designs provide multiple layers and options for the QB and are designed to get the ball out under 3 seconds. That's a win-win for any QB and OL. Watching the Denver game reminded me of that where I only saw one pass...one pass...the entire game that was over 3 seconds. It was 4 seconds b/c the design was literally, for Manning to do a 360-spin after a fake handoff and hit the crossing WR in stride for a huge gain. That spin took an extra second.

We actually were running the WC with Alex Smith, and it was going well because Harbaugh controlled it.. but we fell inlove with Kaep's talent after the Chicago Bears game and out-smarted ourselves..

All of a sudden, both Harbaugh and Roman became a Pistol Professors, then added their variation of Read Option.. and it was the END OF IT ALL!!

Originally posted by NCommand:

Very few of the sacks this year have been at the 2-second mark...most have been at the 3+ second mark. Most WCO passing designs provide multiple layers and options for the QB and are designed to get the ball out under 3 seconds. That's a win-win for any QB and OL. Watching the Denver game reminded me of that where I only saw one pass...one pass...the entire game that was over 3 seconds. It was 4 seconds b/c the design was literally, for Manning to do a 360-spin after a fake handoff and hit the crossing WR in stride for a huge gain. That spin took an extra second.

I was basing my opinion on a stat they showed at the 27 pass mark last game. At that point kap had been sacked 8 times and hurried 15 times. I think in the context of our current offense moving the spot is the best option. Although I did like what we where doing on the first half vs ari with the short pass game. Honestly, I'll take both because this current (14 sacks in two games) is just about the most rediculous s**t I've seen in a decade.

You just have to hope its darkest before the light, because ole fat Rob Ryan is licking his chops ready to heat up the blitz this upcoming Sunday.

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
That was the hope when Harbaugh returned, they ran a lot of WCO heavy stuff back in early to mid 2011 and from 2012 on, even before Kaepernick became the starter, seemingly ditched quite a bit of it.

GO BACK TO OUR ROOTS/ GLORY DAYS...stop with this read option silly gimmicky crap
Go full on WCO

................

Um.........

WCO in its purest form doesn't exist anymore. Every offense uses elements of it.

...including SF which uses ALOT of it. I'm reading complaints here about the Pistol and Read-Option as if they are the problem...which is really odd to me considering how little they are using either formation.

Hate to break it to a number of you but the Niners are running quite a few standard sets using WCO elements. I know the default position of Niner fans is that when offense doesn't work they should return to an offense that hasn't existed in over a decade because that all they know...

...but it really doesn't matter 2 st*ts what offense you run when you are giving up 8 sacks.

I'm reading all this BS about Kap and what he can't do...and meanwhile he was sacked 8 times yet still threw for 200+ yards, had a QB rating of 97.7, didn't thow a pick, and got them in position to win at the end (and likely DID had the refs not screwed up).

This reactionary BS that has become the staple of Ninertalk really turns me off to the entire site sometimes.

Originally posted by Marvin49:

................

Um.........

WCO in its purest form doesn't exist anymore. Every offense uses elements of it.

...including SF which uses ALOT of it. I'm reading complaints here about the Pistol and Read-Option as if they are the problem...which is really odd to me considering how little they are using either formation.

Hate to break it to a number of you but the Niners are running quite a few standard sets using WCO elements. I know the default position of Niner fans is that when offense doesn't work they should return to an offense that hasn't existed in over a decade because that all they know...

...but it really doesn't matter 2 st*ts what offense you run when you are giving up 8 sacks.

I'm reading all this BS about Kap and what he can't do...and meanwhile he was sacked 8 times yet still threw for 200+ yards, had a QB rating of 97.7, didn't thow a pick, and got them in position to win at the end (and likely DID had the refs not screwed up).

This reactionary BS that has become the staple of Ninertalk really turns me off to the entire site sometimes.

I think it does speak to kap's talent that he is on pace for a 3900 yard 24 td 10 int season with a 64% comp and a 95 qb rating, given the state of our OL. These are very good statistics given our injuries.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by Marvin49:
................

Um.........

WCO in its purest form doesn't exist anymore. Every offense uses elements of it.

...including SF which uses ALOT of it. I'm reading complaints here about the Pistol and Read-Option as if they are the problem...which is really odd to me considering how little they are using either formation.

Hate to break it to a number of you but the Niners are running quite a few standard sets using WCO elements. I know the default position of Niner fans is that when offense doesn't work they should return to an offense that hasn't existed in over a decade because that all they know...

...but it really doesn't matter 2 st*ts what offense you run when you are giving up 8 sacks.

I'm reading all this BS about Kap and what he can't do...and meanwhile he was sacked 8 times yet still threw for 200+ yards, had a QB rating of 97.7, didn't thow a pick, and got them in position to win at the end (and likely DID had the refs not screwed up).

This reactionary BS that has become the staple of Ninertalk really turns me off to the entire site sometimes.

I think it does speak to kap's talent that he is on pace for a 3900 yard 24 td 10 int season with a 64% comp and a 95 qb rating, given the state of our OL.

Precisely....but wait, that's just madness.

Clearly, all problems are Kaps. Losses are always Kaps fault. Don't you know that? LOL.

The O-line has been a problem ALL SEASON, yet all I read is that Roman sucks and Kap is regressing. WTF are you guys watching?

No way in hell can Kap run a WCO.

If you want to go full WCO, start by drafting another QB before we start talking.