Anyone know our starting defensive lineup?

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by thl408:
No idea how long it would take, but I have faith in the coaches. Like you said, DAL and CHI will be trial by fire and will allow the defensive coaches to gather valuable tape to teach with. If the players aren't grasping the concepts well, I can see Vic Fangio simplifying the coverage calls to help minimize mistakes. I'm working on putting together some plays that illustrate the complexity of the 49er's coverage calls. Hoping to post it before week 1.

I look forward to seeing it.

Can't wait! I wonder if you noticed any patterns in preseason as well.

Originally posted by jreff22:
Even with the hurt guys coming back...the weakest spot still looks like NT and SS going forward. This meaning Ward stays at nickle next year.

NT is a concern. If a team can establish a running game inside (ala Ravens), teams like Dallas and Chicago will have a field day of of play action.

bottom 10 defense here we come

Originally posted by NCommand:
Just to piggy back on a great topic, I agree with thl408 that is may take a bit to fully gel as a "unit" but to play devil's advocate, it may not take any time at all either. Culliver and Brock are well versed in this defense and Reid runs the show on the back end (and is a seasoned veteran in our defense and makes adjustment calls). I would imagine Fangio is going to continue to play his S's deep (which in many cases, will be Reid with Bethea playing more down hill closer to the LOS - which is his strength). Also, I noticed we didn't play a single snap of press/physical/jamming press at the LOS during preseason. Not one. That tells me something...that they were working on the more exotic off coverage schemes with all the new guys and perfecting it with the starters. And that is part of the excitement of having Culliver and Brock b/c they both can play off coverage and in press. I'm anxious to see Bethea playing behind a top notch defensive front 7 like this with rotating pressure. Ward, so far, looks solid and just needs to hold serve and break on that ball when his instincts kick in and continue to play smart out there. We face two big time passing games coming up and it will be a very very good test for this new unit. They will take some lumps but like the preseason, they could end up being THE strongest unit by far too.

Until I see something that makes me change my mind, I still think the D is the strength of the Niners.

Yes, it would be nice to have Dorsey, Bowman and Aldon back out there (then it would be the No. 1 defense), but as long as Justin Smith and Willis are in there, and we've go some vet athletic CBs and a S with range and saavy, it's gonna be a tough defense.

I'd love to see Lynch develop to the point where he's active each week. He was impressive in the preseason, and I don't think they'll be able to keep him out of the mix for long. If he's not sacking the QB, he's batting down passes.

Would it be a surprise to see him active this week, instead of Skuta maybe? (Well, yes it would be a surprise b/c Fangio doesn't play rookies. )

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by oldninerdude:

Originally posted by thl408:
No idea how long it would take, but I have faith in the coaches. Like you said, DAL and CHI will be trial by fire and will allow the defensive coaches to gather valuable tape to teach with. If the players aren't grasping the concepts well, I can see Vic Fangio simplifying the coverage calls to help minimize mistakes. I'm working on putting together some plays that illustrate the complexity of the 49er's coverage calls. Hoping to post it before week 1.

I look forward to seeing it.

Can't wait! I wonder if you noticed any patterns in preseason as well.

In the preseason, I could tell they were practicing pattern matching concepts (pattern matching is zone coverage that morphs into man coverage). They were always playing with a cushion. This isn't anything new to Fangio's 49er defense, but I thought we'd see at least some press alignments. Even though guys like Cook and DJohnson have the build to be effective press CBs, they were still always playing with a cushion. My guess is that they were getting valuable experience for the youngsters in pattern match schemes.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Just to piggy back on a great topic, I agree with thl408 that is may take a bit to fully gel as a "unit" but to play devil's advocate, it may not take any time at all either. Culliver and Brock are well versed in this defense and Reid runs the show on the back end (and is a seasoned veteran in our defense and makes adjustment calls). I would imagine Fangio is going to continue to play his S's deep (which in many cases, will be Reid with Bethea playing more down hill closer to the LOS - which is his strength). Also, I noticed we didn't play a single snap of press/physical/jamming press at the LOS during preseason. Not one. That tells me something...that they were working on the more exotic off coverage schemes with all the new guys and perfecting it with the starters. And that is part of the excitement of having Culliver and Brock b/c they both can play off coverage and in press. I'm anxious to see Bethea playing behind a top notch defensive front 7 like this with rotating pressure. Ward, so far, looks solid and just needs to hold serve and break on that ball when his instincts kick in and continue to play smart out there. We face two big time passing games coming up and it will be a very very good test for this new unit. They will take some lumps but like the preseason, they could end up being THE strongest unit by far too.

Totally agree with the bolded. I will try to detail quarters coverage in a post later this week. That's what I think the 49ers were trying to do in the preseason with the youngsters. Every team has its own set of rules for pattern matching. So even if some of these youngsters played it in college, it could be very different than what Fangio/Donatell want them to do.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Just to piggy back on a great topic, I agree with thl408 that is may take a bit to fully gel as a "unit" but to play devil's advocate, it may not take any time at all either. Culliver and Brock are well versed in this defense and Reid runs the show on the back end (and is a seasoned veteran in our defense and makes adjustment calls). I would imagine Fangio is going to continue to play his S's deep (which in many cases, will be Reid with Bethea playing more down hill closer to the LOS - which is his strength). Also, I noticed we didn't play a single snap of press/physical/jamming press at the LOS during preseason. Not one. That tells me something...that they were working on the more exotic off coverage schemes with all the new guys and perfecting it with the starters. And that is part of the excitement of having Culliver and Brock b/c they both can play off coverage and in press. I'm anxious to see Bethea playing behind a top notch defensive front 7 like this with rotating pressure. Ward, so far, looks solid and just needs to hold serve and break on that ball when his instincts kick in and continue to play smart out there. We face two big time passing games coming up and it will be a very very good test for this new unit. They will take some lumps but like the preseason, they could end up being THE strongest unit by far too.

Totally agree with the bolded. I will try to detail quarters coverage in a post later this week. That's what I think the 49ers were trying to do in the preseason with the youngsters. Every team has its own set of rules for pattern matching. So even if some of these youngsters played it in college, it could be very different than what Fangio/Donatell want them to do.

That will be very educational for a ton of fans in here...plus it's a great refresher for many of us. I know Cook earlier in the season was quoted as talking about how they want him to play press. Given that that may be the strength of all four of our CB's, I still expect to see, once the regular season starts, some jamming press at the LOS as well. As to what %? I'd guess 75% off coverage and 25% press. If the press becomes more and more effective, it could rise but make no mistake about it, our scheme is all about playing within the rules and playing off coverage.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Just to piggy back on a great topic, I agree with thl408 that is may take a bit to fully gel as a "unit" but to play devil's advocate, it may not take any time at all either. Culliver and Brock are well versed in this defense and Reid runs the show on the back end (and is a seasoned veteran in our defense and makes adjustment calls). I would imagine Fangio is going to continue to play his S's deep (which in many cases, will be Reid with Bethea playing more down hill closer to the LOS - which is his strength). Also, I noticed we didn't play a single snap of press/physical/jamming press at the LOS during preseason. Not one. That tells me something...that they were working on the more exotic off coverage schemes with all the new guys and perfecting it with the starters. And that is part of the excitement of having Culliver and Brock b/c they both can play off coverage and in press. I'm anxious to see Bethea playing behind a top notch defensive front 7 like this with rotating pressure. Ward, so far, looks solid and just needs to hold serve and break on that ball when his instincts kick in and continue to play smart out there. We face two big time passing games coming up and it will be a very very good test for this new unit. They will take some lumps but like the preseason, they could end up being THE strongest unit by far too.

Totally agree with the bolded. I will try to detail quarters coverage in a post later this week. That's what I think the 49ers were trying to do in the preseason with the youngsters. Every team has its own set of rules for pattern matching. So even if some of these youngsters played it in college, it could be very different than what Fangio/Donatell want them to do.

That will be very educational for a ton of fans in here...plus it's a great refresher for many of us. I know Cook earlier in the season was quoted as talking about how they want him to play press. Given that that may be the strength of all four of our CB's, I still expect to see, once the regular season starts, some jamming press at the LOS as well. As to what %? I'd guess 75% off coverage and 25% press. If the press becomes more and more effective, it could rise but make no mistake about it, our scheme is all about playing within the rules and playing off coverage.

I commented about this in another thread. This preseason was pretty much all off coverage/zone. They had Cully jumping routes the way Brock does. Reid was dropping down to play robber. I think we're going to see a team that plays about what you said NC 75% zone 25% man. Probably more press man on 3rd downs. I feel like Fangio has overhauled the secondary coverage schemes because he knows he wont have the pass rush he likes to run man. At least not in the beginning of the season. He's going to need gamble in the form of defensive turnovers. INT, strips, and fumbles and I can see some of those adjustments in the way we played during the preseason. Clearly these guys were being coached to jump routes and drop into zones that they're not expected. That being said I think the pass rush is going to surprise us. I mean you have Brooks, Smith, Lemons, Lynch, and Tank. Lemons and Lynch can put their hand in the ground and pin those ears back. Tank can play the edge and rush the interior spelling Smith. Smith will be fresh with Tank in the rotation. Brooks will be fresh with Lynch in the rotation. We will definitely have the depth but some guys are going to have to step it up and thats when you to trust the staff and I do but more then the staff I trust the players.

thl I can't wait to see your defensive breakdowns. Love reading that stuff.

Until we can play press coverage, we will have a hard time beating SEA in SEA. Fortunately, Bow and aldon , maybe big mac , will be back by them. We somehow have to survive the first 8 games first. Come on "O".

Originally posted by eonblue:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:
Just to piggy back on a great topic, I agree with thl408 that is may take a bit to fully gel as a "unit" but to play devil's advocate, it may not take any time at all either. Culliver and Brock are well versed in this defense and Reid runs the show on the back end (and is a seasoned veteran in our defense and makes adjustment calls). I would imagine Fangio is going to continue to play his S's deep (which in many cases, will be Reid with Bethea playing more down hill closer to the LOS - which is his strength). Also, I noticed we didn't play a single snap of press/physical/jamming press at the LOS during preseason. Not one. That tells me something...that they were working on the more exotic off coverage schemes with all the new guys and perfecting it with the starters. And that is part of the excitement of having Culliver and Brock b/c they both can play off coverage and in press. I'm anxious to see Bethea playing behind a top notch defensive front 7 like this with rotating pressure. Ward, so far, looks solid and just needs to hold serve and break on that ball when his instincts kick in and continue to play smart out there. We face two big time passing games coming up and it will be a very very good test for this new unit. They will take some lumps but like the preseason, they could end up being THE strongest unit by far too.

Totally agree with the bolded. I will try to detail quarters coverage in a post later this week. That's what I think the 49ers were trying to do in the preseason with the youngsters. Every team has its own set of rules for pattern matching. So even if some of these youngsters played it in college, it could be very different than what Fangio/Donatell want them to do.

That will be very educational for a ton of fans in here...plus it's a great refresher for many of us. I know Cook earlier in the season was quoted as talking about how they want him to play press. Given that that may be the strength of all four of our CB's, I still expect to see, once the regular season starts, some jamming press at the LOS as well. As to what %? I'd guess 75% off coverage and 25% press. If the press becomes more and more effective, it could rise but make no mistake about it, our scheme is all about playing within the rules and playing off coverage.

I commented about this in another thread. This preseason was pretty much all off coverage/zone. They had Cully jumping routes the way Brock does. Reid was dropping down to play robber. I think we're going to see a team that plays about what you said NC 75% zone 25% man. Probably more press man on 3rd downs. I feel like Fangio has overhauled the secondary coverage schemes because he knows he wont have the pass rush he likes to run man. At least not in the beginning of the season. He's going to need gamble in the form of defensive turnovers. INT, strips, and fumbles and I can see some of those adjustments in the way we played during the preseason. Clearly these guys were being coached to jump routes and drop into zones that they're not expected. That being said I think the pass rush is going to surprise us. I mean you have Brooks, Smith, Lemons, Lynch, and Tank. Lemons and Lynch can put their hand in the ground and pin those ears back. Tank can play the edge and rush the interior spelling Smith. Smith will be fresh with Tank in the rotation. Brooks will be fresh with Lynch in the rotation. We will definitely have the depth but some guys are going to have to step it up and thats when you to trust the staff and I do but more then the staff I trust the players.

thl I can't wait to see your defensive breakdowns. Love reading that stuff.

This is a difficult question to answer, because our starting defense is in flux, week-to-week. It depends on how many players have beat their wives or committed violence against trees, in any particular week.

If Bethea or Reid hurt their noggins again, McCray needs to be the first one off the bench..he can't be worse than Dahl

Dent
Stubblefield
B.Young
R.Jackson

I hope this forces Fangio to blitz more. Ive always felt the 49ers were one of the least blitzing teams in the NFL. We might have to this year to generate a pass rush.

Originally posted by thl408:
I think it will take awhile for the secondary to come together. Bethea and Ward are the guys I am more worried about. The 49ers play a lot of split coverages where one side of the field plays a different coverage than the other - exotic stuff. It is up to the safety on each side of the field to call out the pre-snap audibles to the CBs on his side of the field, so that puts Bethea on the spot. Ward because playing nickel is just a very difficult thing to do in general, but especially for this 49er defense when you consider all the pattern matching they do. I have full confidence that the secondary will start to come together as the season progresses because Bethea is a proven vet, and I have read that Ward is a student of the game. How quickly it comes together is boosted by the excellent defensive coaching staff, but there will be some growing pains at the start of the year.

The two best pass defending LBs will be missing for the first half of the season and that hurts bad. Bow because he's so good at recognizing routes and open field tackling, which nullifies RAC from the RBs. Aldon because he's one of the best pass rushers in the league. I can't say that about Aldon, then turn around and say there won't be much of a dropoff, no matter how much I like Lemon.

All that said, this team plays a real team concept on defense. When things are clicking, they use each other well by knowing where their help is on the field. They communicate pre and post snap to adjust to routes. It's a beautiful thing when done correctly. I may be a bit paranoid, but there was a certain amount of cohesion that was lost when CRogers, Whitner, and TBrown left.

This is where Reid and Willis step up.
The line will be fine. Pat has to step up and lead like he did before Bowman got there to make sure that the others are in their spots.
Reid knows this team like the back of his hand so hopefully he's been making sure he got Bathea in check like whitner had him in check to start.
Brock and culliver know this system they should be fine. If war can pick things up quickly we'll be in great shape.