49ers are handicapped by using a full time Full Back..

I honestly think we would have won the Super Bowl/ NFC Championship if we had Miller. He was like a secret weapon.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Since07:

Bruce Miller > Steve Johnson

Debatable. Obviously they bring completely different skill sets to the table. SJ has proven success over a longer period of time. Miller plays a position that has high value in a run first offense.

That's not debatable. I'd rather have Johnson on the field. Miller caught a lot of balls because teams weren't expecting it and because Kap had no other receivers who he trusted (or saw depending on your opinion). Our full back shouldn't have been the third leading receiver. Stevie Johnson can do way more damage. He can block as well.

So what if Miller caught the ball because teams aren't expecting it? Is that bad?

To me, it's debatable on a per game basis, even a per drive basis. If Miller is having success lead blocking and acting as a joker, and the pass protection isn't holding up, then SJ plays less, for that stretch in the game. If the defense can't handle 4 WRs and Kap has time to throw, then SJ plays more, for that game. It's not black and white as SJ>Miller, or Miller>SJ. They do different things and their degree of effectiveness differs depending on the defense they are facing. The roster is that talented where this debate can take place. Maybe I just overestimate Miller, or you underestimate him. I know for sure I do not underestimate SJ.

edit: I think I know what you meant by Miller caught passes because teams didn't expect it. Meaning he didn't run a great route to get open, they just left him open. Whatever works. If they start paying attention to a FB in the flats, that opens up a more enticing area of the field. Other times, he's short over the middle acting as a solid outlet.

It really is all situational. I still stand by it that's it is a very good thing in this pass happy nfl to be able to move the ball out of base personnel.

The spread has almost become the "base" offense in the league today so when you are able to use a FB in both blocking and receiving that give you a very nice match that can when used correctly have very little pass/run tells. Take gruden's favorite play spider y banana(basically a play pass off of power O) for example. The reason he loves it so much is that the FB is open 90% of the time off he Playaction. You would be hard pressed to find another position in any other concept that had that high a rate of openness and it's almost exclusively because to sell the power you need that blocking FB. We run spider y banana a lot, but I would argue we don't run it as much as we should, hell this play should be what flanker drive was back in the glory days. Miller could easily get 40-50 catches with that play as a base and if he is getting that sort of production I have little doubt it would help open other areas of the field.

IMO the best offense with our roster is a multiple attack that dictates to the defense and keeps them on their heels. I do not want to become a pass heavy team that struggles to run when it needs too.

Originally posted by pete98146:
I see this offense being in a definite transition this year. Don't get me wrong, relying heavily on a FB and playing out of a ball control style of offense has reaped benefits for us in the past, I think it's outlived it's benefits.

Every time Bruce Miller lines up in the back field that means that Stevie Johnson, Bruce Ellington, Brandon Lloyd will be sitting on the sidelines. Hear me out on this one! For the first time in many years, our receiving core is the strength of our offense. Not utilizing as many as we can is compromising our strength!!!!

I guarantee you that if you line up Crabtree/Boldin/Johnson as our Wide Outs and pair them with Vernon Davis (coupled with Colin Kaepernick's ability to scramble) there is NO WAY that he defenses can load the box. From the onset of the play they'll be back peddling and spread thin trying to cover these guys.

This alone will create some massive running lanes. There is simply no reason why our Running Backs cannot operate in single back formations. The holes will be there. Trust me. Other teams run plenty of single back schemes, why can't we?

Obviously this all changes when we are in a short yardage run situation but aside from that, we have outgrown our need for a full time FB.

Thoughts?

The last time I checked, the late, great Bill Walsh valued a multipurpose fullback, which Bruce Miller definitely is. Having him on the field does not weaken our offense whatsoever. Now, it is up to Harbaugh and Roman to include him in the passing game, and not to pigeon hole him as simply a blocking fullback. Sometimes they succeed in doing that, and other times, they seem to forget what Miller can provide to our offense. I would love to see more base sets of 2 WR, 1 TE, and a HB and FB. With our current personnel, Harbaugh and Roman should apply more West Coast offense principles.

If I remember correctly, several teams mentioned that our offense became rather predictable based on the personnel and formations that lined up on offense. We need to get back making the defense guess whether we will run or pass. We could even employ a 1WR, 2 TE, FB, and HB package, which we could both run and pass out of. The added benefit of having a deep and talented WR pool, as well as up-and-coming TEs in MacDonald and Carrier gives us a wide variety of options to play with. We need to get back to keeping defenses on their heels and not becoming so predictable.

Dan
49ers Fan in NC

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Since07:
Bruce Miller > Steve Johnson

Debatable. Obviously they bring completely different skill sets to the table. SJ has proven success over a longer period of time. Miller plays a position that has high value in a run first offense.

That's not debatable. I'd rather have Johnson on the field. Miller caught a lot of balls because teams weren't expecting it and because Kap had no other receivers who he trusted (or saw depending on your opinion). Our full back shouldn't have been the third leading receiver. Stevie Johnson can do way more damage. He can block as well.

So what if Miller caught the ball because teams aren't expecting it? Is that bad?

To me, it's debatable on a per game basis, even a per drive basis. If Miller is having success lead blocking and acting as a joker, and the pass protection isn't holding up, then SJ plays less, for that stretch in the game. If the defense can't handle 4 WRs and Kap has time to throw, then SJ plays more, for that game. It's not black and white as SJ>Miller, or Miller>SJ. They do different things and their degree of effectiveness differs depending on the defense they are facing. The roster is that talented where this debate can take place. Maybe I just overestimate Miller, or you underestimate him. I know for sure I do not underestimate SJ.

edit: I think I know what you meant by Miller caught passes because teams didn't expect it. Meaning he didn't run a great route to get open, they just left him open. Whatever works. If they start paying attention to a FB in the flats, that opens up a more enticing area of the field. Other times, he's short over the middle acting as a solid outlet.

It really is all situational. I still stand by it that's it is a very good thing in this pass happy nfl to be able to move the ball out of base personnel.

The spread has almost become the "base" offense in the league today so when you are able to use a FB in both blocking and receiving that give you a very nice match that can when used correctly have very little pass/run tells. Take gruden's favorite play spider y banana(basically a play pass off of power O) for example. The reason he loves it so much is that the FB is open 90% of the time off he Playaction. You would be hard pressed to find another position in any other concept that had that high a rate of openness and it's almost exclusively because to sell the power you need that blocking FB. We run spider y banana a lot, but I would argue we don't run it as much as we should, hell this play should be what flanker drive was back in the glory days. Miller could easily get 40-50 catches with that play as a base and if he is getting that sort of production I have little doubt it would help open other areas of the field.

IMO the best offense with our roster is a multiple attack that dictates to the defense and keeps them on their heels. I do not want to become a pass heavy team that struggles to run when it needs too.

I wholeheartedly agree. Additionally, If other receivers are covered, and the fullback is open, then the play went as designed. If the opposing defense leaves the FB uncovered, why not throw him the ball, instead of forcing it to those who are covered? To me, that means that Kaepernick went through his progressions and took what the defense gave him. Bill Walsh had no qualms using the FB in the passing game; he believed in creating mismatches and forcing the defense to adjust. I don't care for the current focus on the spread offense because it instantly tells the defense what the offense is doing, and the defensive line knows that they only have to focus on rushing the passer. Using base personnel to run and pass will make the defensive line hesitate for a split second, which is sometimes all the offense needs to move the ball forward. To me, there is nothing more exciting than watching a 2nd or 3rd and short pass when the defense is expecting the run. The look of confusion and dismay on their faces is priceless.

Dan
49ers Fan in NC

Bottom line if we had to pick between the two players I have to think most would pick Bruce.

Originally posted by Since07:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Since07:

Bruce Miller > Steve Johnson

Debatable. Obviously they bring completely different skill sets to the table. SJ has proven success over a longer period of time. Miller plays a position that has high value in a run first offense.

We are a run first team, I'd put Miller as a top 3 FB. Johnson is barley a starting WR then again he's never even had a "good" QB

You're right, he could use more hops.

I agree with the OP that I want more 3-4 WR sets but dont agree that a fulltime FB henders us in anyway. If we want to grind it out we can, if we want to put speed on the field we can. The problem is Greg Roman set in his ways, they say they cleaned house on the playbook. Time will tell...

I think this thread lost some credibility when it was stated that it isn't even debatable that we would be better with Miller or Stevie. How can you even say that when Stevie hasn't played a regular season snap...or even a second pre-season game. That is just rediculous.

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:

I think this thread lost some credibility when it was stated that it isn't even debatable that we would be better with Miller or Stevie. How can you even say that when Stevie hasn't played a regular season snap...or even a second pre-season game. That is just rediculous.

You lost some credibility with your spelling. Just ridiculous!

Originally posted by Youngone:

Originally posted by PhillyNiner:
I think this thread lost some credibility when it was stated that it isn't even debatable that we would be better with Miller or Stevie. How can you even say that when Stevie hasn't played a regular season snap...or even a second pre-season game. That is just rediculous.

You lost some credibility with your spelling. Just ridiculous!

yeah...because that matters.

When Miller broke his shoulder blade our running game almost went to complete s**t. Kap was the running game after that point when he broke containment I would start flying down the field like a gazelle. We can't rely on that all the time going forward and I believe Bruce Miller was the runner-up to Boldin as the MVP for the entire team last year.

Originally posted by WINiner:
Handicapped?

Miller is a stud, and a true threat out of the backfield.

your post and many others in this thread...

IMO Miller is like a secret weapon every catch he makes he's an automatic 5-6 yards because nobody covers a FB anymore plus he's a great lead blocker. He doesn't handicap us in any way shape or form. He is just an extra chess piece if used effectively.