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Will it be the ole Greg Roman play calling again?
Aug 10, 2014 at 11:18 AM
- KyleShanahan
- Veteran
- Posts: 3,779
John Harbaugh had to make an OC switch mid season and he ended up winning the SB. I hope Jim pays attention to his big bro.
Aug 10, 2014 at 11:22 AM
- pete98146
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,618
Originally posted by Phil:We'll know 3 or 4 games into the season. Last season they began to play around with the passing game in the opening GB game and in the following games but things fell apart so our passing game went into emergency conservative mode. Now, with four 1,000 yard WR's and a pro bowl TE it would be a travesty if Roman doesn't open the passing game up. The only thing holding the passing game back would be really bad play from Kaepernick as we saw last season against the Colts, Seattle, Houston and Car. When the QB was passing for under 200 yards a game with under a 50% completion rate....our passing game didn't "recover" until the Redskins game and it was still below average at that point.
Kaepernick has a lot of work to do. I was PISSED when I read he didnt work with a QB coach in the offseason and am angry that Whitfield is working with the other QB's more than Kap (in camp). He should improve just by having 4 very good WR's around but Roman's style is also lacking, it's not just Kaps inconsistent play. We're not really running a WCO, no screens....no nothing which requires the O-line to be more dynamic in pass blocking. That's another aspect- our O-line gets all this praise but it didnt hold up very well last season in pass protection and isn't very dynamic when it comes to screens and such. Kaps arm also lacks finesse. He should have been working with George Whitfield daily after the NFCCG loss. Every single day. He should be working with him now everyday but he's not.
Generally, outside of play design, the play calling itself was bad. I knew when they were going to run or pass on just about every play EXCEPT when Roman would stop running when the run was working. He did that in two games and we lost both games because of it. The delay of game penalties also stunk. They said they "streamlined" the playbook to simplify things at the line- said that wont be an issue but we'll see when the season starts.
Our season and SB chances pretty much rely on Kaepernick improving. The season relies on our passing game improving and our offense carrying some of the load early on in the season while Bowman/Aldon are out and while our secondary fuses together as a unit. Our defense is a BIG ???? going into the season. We need to keep them off the field as much as possible so we have a risky situation manifesting. If we try to change the passing game too much it may backfire like it did last season and our young inexperienced D will be put in a bad position if our O puts up a lot of quick 3 and outs. We need to run more screens, pass to the RB's more, more short passes to WR's down the middle and checkdowns need to be utilized. Kap needs to stop locking on to one WR, our O line needs to be more dynamic in pass blocking and Roman needs to call plays less predictably but the play design itself needs to change away from focus on one WR as it was last season. We need to force Kap to go through progressions. We should be playing him this preseason and force him to look at one, two and three WR's before he passes the ball. Force him to throw some lob passes in the redzone- passes that have an arch to them. Force Kap to throw to running backs and throw some short passes down the middle. Force Kap to stay in the pocket and see the field. As it is now our play design and play calling is limited by Kaps level of development. The more Kap progresses the more complex our passing game can become but I'm not sure if Roman is the man to help guide this process. He doesn't have my confidence. I wanted another OC the day we lost the NFCCG. Wanted a different OC after the first loss against the Giants. 1 pass to a WR that game. That wasn't all Alex Smiths doing.
Roman should be handed his walking papers if we come up short of the SB this season and we should also draft another QB early in the draft if Kap doesn't significantly improve but he should improve this season. He should. This should be our year! I see him having a about 3700 yards passing with a 64% completion percentage. 30 TD's and 10 ints. Less rushing, around 350 yards rushing.
Great post! You addressed many of my concerns. Let's face it. There is no way that our defense will be as effective as last years. Just not going to happen. Unfortunately the Harbaugh/Roman offense is designed to be a ultra conservative/no frills scheme. They are comfortable going down and kicking the field goal knowing that our defense is the backbone to winning. So far, it's been successful. But as you stated, the injuries to Bo, Aldon's suspension, the new secondary will hurt us.
So for the first time in Harbaugh's tenure, there IS pressure on the offense to produce. I think we got lucky with Carlos Hyde. Although not a home run hitter, I think he's fully capable of moving the chains within Roman's complex running game. But defenses are going to key on that. Make NO mistake!!
This puts an onus on creative play calling and until I see it, I don't know if Roman is capable of calling plays outside of the conservative box that has worked so well in the past. Bingo on your observations. I don't see the screen passes or for that matter passes thrown over the middle. We also have to get away from that damned slant/fade pattern run to the sidelines. Again, defenses will adapt. You make it easy for the defense when they can align up for the run and once they determine it's a passing play, they can cheat to the outer half of the field knowing that anything over the middle probably won't happen.
It's frustrating. Most offense coordinators would drool to have Vernon, Crabtree, Boldin, Patton, Stevie, Ellington to work with. Talk about weapons!!!! If Roman/Harbaugh don't utilize these guys (much much much more so than in the past) I'm afraid it's going to be a very long season.
Aug 10, 2014 at 11:23 AM
- sdaddy101269
- Veteran
- Posts: 4,736
Maybe he needs to take a page from Bill Walsh's philosophy and script his plays.
Aug 10, 2014 at 11:30 AM
- Giedi
- Veteran
- Posts: 32,246
Originally posted by TheSilverFox1971:Originally posted by defenderDX:Am I the only one concerned about our defense regressing this year or is it just me?
For once im actually not too worried about the offense
Based on Aldon and Bow's situations, and the re-vamped secondary I expect the D to come out of the gate slow. I expect the D to come together by mid-season and they will be lights out heading into the playoffs.
I expect the O to take a big jump this year, especially if we can figure out how to be more lethal in the red zone.
I hope that's the case. I agree the defense is weaker than last years with so many pieces gone or injured. If Dorsey recovers in time for the playoffs and Ian has no more setbacks and Bowman is able to.play late in the season, I think by the bye week- we should have one of the deeper and more talented defenses in the NFL.
Aug 10, 2014 at 11:32 AM
- TheSilverFox1971
- Veteran
- Posts: 1,257
Originally posted by Giedi:I hope that's the case. I agree the defense is weaker than last years with so many pieces gone or injured. If Dorsey recovers in time for the playoffs and Ian has no more setbacks and Bowman is able to.play late in the season, I think by the bye week- we should have one of the deeper and more talented defenses in the NFL.
My scenario also assumes decent health of our roster.......which seems to be a challenge lately.
[ Edited by TheSilverFox1971 on Aug 10, 2014 at 11:32 AM ]
Aug 10, 2014 at 11:36 AM
- Giedi
- Veteran
- Posts: 32,246
Originally posted by pete98146:Originally posted by Phil:We'll know 3 or 4 games into the season. Last season they began to play around with the passing game in the opening GB game and in the following games but things fell apart so our passing game went into emergency conservative mode. Now, with four 1,000 yard WR's and a pro bowl TE it would be a travesty if Roman doesn't open the passing game up. The only thing holding the passing game back would be really bad play from Kaepernick as we saw last season against the Colts, Seattle, Houston and Car. When the QB was passing for under 200 yards a game with under a 50% completion rate....our passing game didn't "recover" until the Redskins game and it was still below average at that point.
Kaepernick has a lot of work to do. I was PISSED when I read he didnt work with a QB coach in the offseason and am angry that Whitfield is working with the other QB's more than Kap (in camp). He should improve just by having 4 very good WR's around but Roman's style is also lacking, it's not just Kaps inconsistent play. We're not really running a WCO, no screens....no nothing which requires the O-line to be more dynamic in pass blocking. That's another aspect- our O-line gets all this praise but it didnt hold up very well last season in pass protection and isn't very dynamic when it comes to screens and such. Kaps arm also lacks finesse. He should have been working with George Whitfield daily after the NFCCG loss. Every single day. He should be working with him now everyday but he's not.
Generally, outside of play design, the play calling itself was bad. I knew when they were going to run or pass on just about every play EXCEPT when Roman would stop running when the run was working. He did that in two games and we lost both games because of it. The delay of game penalties also stunk. They said they "streamlined" the playbook to simplify things at the line- said that wont be an issue but we'll see when the season starts.
Our season and SB chances pretty much rely on Kaepernick improving. The season relies on our passing game improving and our offense carrying some of the load early on in the season while Bowman/Aldon are out and while our secondary fuses together as a unit. Our defense is a BIG ???? going into the season. We need to keep them off the field as much as possible so we have a risky situation manifesting. If we try to change the passing game too much it may backfire like it did last season and our young inexperienced D will be put in a bad position if our O puts up a lot of quick 3 and outs. We need to run more screens, pass to the RB's more, more short passes to WR's down the middle and checkdowns need to be utilized. Kap needs to stop locking on to one WR, our O line needs to be more dynamic in pass blocking and Roman needs to call plays less predictably but the play design itself needs to change away from focus on one WR as it was last season. We need to force Kap to go through progressions. We should be playing him this preseason and force him to look at one, two and three WR's before he passes the ball. Force him to throw some lob passes in the redzone- passes that have an arch to them. Force Kap to throw to running backs and throw some short passes down the middle. Force Kap to stay in the pocket and see the field. As it is now our play design and play calling is limited by Kaps level of development. The more Kap progresses the more complex our passing game can become but I'm not sure if Roman is the man to help guide this process. He doesn't have my confidence. I wanted another OC the day we lost the NFCCG. Wanted a different OC after the first loss against the Giants. 1 pass to a WR that game. That wasn't all Alex Smiths doing.
Roman should be handed his walking papers if we come up short of the SB this season and we should also draft another QB early in the draft if Kap doesn't significantly improve but he should improve this season. He should. This should be our year! I see him having a about 3700 yards passing with a 64% completion percentage. 30 TD's and 10 ints. Less rushing, around 350 yards rushing.
Great post! You addressed many of my concerns. Let's face it. There is no way that our defense will be as effective as last years. Just not going to happen. Unfortunately the Harbaugh/Roman offense is designed to be a ultra conservative/no frills scheme. They are comfortable going down and kicking the field goal knowing that our defense is the backbone to winning. So far, it's been successful. But as you stated, the injuries to Bo, Aldon's suspension, the new secondary will hurt us.
So for the first time in Harbaugh's tenure, there IS pressure on the offense to produce. I think we got lucky with Carlos Hyde. Although not a home run hitter, I think he's fully capable of moving the chains within Roman's complex running game. But defenses are going to key on that. Make NO mistake!!
This puts an onus on creative play calling and until I see it, I don't know if Roman is capable of calling plays outside of the conservative box that has worked so well in the past. Bingo on your observations. I don't see the screen passes or for that matter passes thrown over the middle. We also have to get away from that damned slant/fade pattern run to the sidelines. Again, defenses will adapt. You make it easy for the defense when they can align up for the run and once they determine it's a passing play, they can cheat to the outer half of the field knowing that anything over the middle probably won't happen.
It's frustrating. Most offense coordinators would drool to have Vernon, Crabtree, Boldin, Patton, Stevie, Ellington to work with. Talk about weapons!!!! If Roman/Harbaugh don't utilize these guys (much much much more so than in the past) I'm afraid it's going to be a very long season.
Re:romans brain farts. I think he's just over thinking things. He should re - read sun tsu and the art of war again. Just do the opposite of what the defense expects. Take what the defense gives you. When roman does his brain farts, it's usually in the second quarter and we're driving for a td. He'll call a play pass, or a reverse run or some weird bootleg play - like the Rams game. He should resist the urge to outsmart the DC and just call a very simple play that conforms to the basic strategies in Sun Tsu's war manual. I just think he over thinks things too much and ends up out smarting himself.
Aug 10, 2014 at 11:43 AM
- Giedi
- Veteran
- Posts: 32,246
Originally posted by TheSilverFox1971:Originally posted by Giedi:I hope that's the case. I agree the defense is weaker than last years with so many pieces gone or injured. If Dorsey recovers in time for the playoffs and Ian has no more setbacks and Bowman is able to.play late in the season, I think by the bye week- we should have one of the deeper and more talented defenses in the NFL.
My scenario also assumes decent health of our roster.......which seems to be a challenge lately.
Agree. So far other than bowman, (even dorsey) there is - so far - no season ending injury *yet* so thank god for that. I think one of the reasons the injuries are happening is because players are pushing themselves to their limits (because they feel they are so close to a super bowl) and the trainers are not doing a good job in stopping these players from going over the edge. The trainers are usually pushing players to the edge, and I think they aren't used to holding players *back* from the edge.
Aug 10, 2014 at 11:43 AM
- pete98146
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,618
Originally posted by sdaddy101269:Maybe he needs to take a page from Bill Walsh's philosophy and script his plays.
What worries me the most is that any new wrinkles in the passing game will probably be new to Roman, CK and our receivers and it will take a while before everyone is comfortable running these plays/kinks are ironed out. Troubling too is our inability to wait till the last split second to snap the ball. Doesn't allow CK enough time to pre read the defense when you are focusing on beating the play clock. There will a learning curve.
Even more worrisome is that if new plays falter, then Harbaugh/Roman go back to the conservative box. If this happens we are in trouble. I'll predict it now. Don't mean to be a Debbie Downer but this offense will NEED to produce. Phil's estimations on spot on above. Bold prediction: If we are not in the Top 1/3 of NFL offenses this year, we don't get anywhere near the SB.
Aug 10, 2014 at 11:47 AM
- TheSilverFox1971
- Veteran
- Posts: 1,257
Originally posted by Giedi:Agree. So far other than bowman, (even dorsey) there is - so far - no season ending injury *yet* so thank god for that. I think one of the reasons the injuries are happening is because players are pushing themselves to their limits (because they feel they are so close to a super bowl) and the trainers are not doing a good job in stopping these players from going over the edge. The trainers are usually pushing players to the edge, and I think they aren't used to holding players *back* from the edge.
Depth is one of our biggest assets right now.
Aug 10, 2014 at 11:50 AM
- JerryRice1848
- Veteran
- Posts: 12,224
Ole Greg Roman led us to three straight NFC championship games
Aug 10, 2014 at 11:51 AM
- LVJay
- Veteran
- Posts: 27,847
Originally posted by JimHarbaugh:
John Harbaugh had to make an OC switch mid season and he ended up winning the SB. I hope Jim pays attention to his big bro.
I hope you do too, coach, I hope you do too...
Aug 10, 2014 at 11:52 AM
- pete98146
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,618
Originally posted by Giedi:Just do the opposite of what the defense expects.
Really the only time I saw that happening was against Phoenix in Phoenix last year.
Our offense is almost the complete opposite of what you say. It's old school smash mouth football. They don't care if you know it's coming or not. The bread and butter of the offense is the full back led run play up the gut. Passing plays are designed the keep the defense honest.
But I totally agree with your point. I'm praying somehow we can make this happen.
Aug 10, 2014 at 12:04 PM
- Giedi
- Veteran
- Posts: 32,246
Originally posted by pete98146:Originally posted by Giedi:Just do the opposite of what the defense expects.
Really the only time I saw that happening was against Phoenix in Phoenix last year.
Our offense is almost the complete opposite of what you say. It's old school smash mouth football. They don't care if you know it's coming or not. The bread and butter of the offense is the full back led run play up the gut. Passing plays are designed the keep the defense honest.
But I totally agree with your point. I'm praying somehow we can make this happen.
Good point. It's the anti - WCO in a sense. Walsh took the fullback dive on a third and one, and turned it into a swing pass or Check down to Rathman. Now we're back full circle to the fullback dive on a 3rd and 1.
Those offenses have won super bowls in the past, so it's not like the run and shoot or the spread offense that has no record of winning the big one. The gibbs/Coryell/al davis offense has a superbowl record almost as sterling as the WCO. The only difference was that the play callers in those offenses called the right plays at the right time. I think G-ro needs to trust his instincts more than his intellect. He has the right instincts, on his brain fart calls, he's just calling the wrong plays too often on those critical downs.
Aug 10, 2014 at 12:41 PM
- Phoenix49ers
- Moderator
- Posts: 119,212
Originally posted by JerryRice1848:Ole Greg Roman led us to three straight NFC championship games
And all 3 times, inability to score in the redzone as well as being able to consistently move the ball on offense was their downfall.
Aug 10, 2014 at 12:48 PM
- pete98146
- Veteran
- Posts: 2,618
Here's one way of looking at it. For the past few years, our offense has been the equivalent of a Volvo. Nothing flashy. It's a good car, a bit boring, you know what you are going to get out of it and it's reliable, safe and gets the job done. You could get away with it because also parked in your garage is your other car which is a higher end BMW (our defense).
But for some odd reason the BMW, is not running well, a bit broken down, then you need to trade in the Volvo to compensate or you'll lose ground. Simply expecting the Volvo to make up the difference is a recipe for .500 football.
But for some odd reason the BMW, is not running well, a bit broken down, then you need to trade in the Volvo to compensate or you'll lose ground. Simply expecting the Volvo to make up the difference is a recipe for .500 football.
[ Edited by pete98146 on Aug 10, 2014 at 12:53 PM ]