CB situation

Originally posted by ChazBoner:

we're good. my only concern is the DB's chemistry working together. New SS, new nickle CB, Culliver back in after a full year off. They will need to work hard to get that chemistry going. Talent wise, they're fine tho.

I agree, on paper they look very strong - talent wise. Nickel and dime defenses will be tested this year, as I expect the offense to score more and score often. That means I hope teams have to pass to catch up and they will have to deal with a much stronger nickel D than last year.

Originally posted by Giedi:
I agree, on paper they look very strong - talent wise. Nickel and dime defenses will be tested this year, as I expect the offense to score more and score often. That means I hope teams have to pass to catch up and they will have to deal with a much stronger nickel D than last year.

I think that Carlos Rogers did an okay job last year covering the slot - more because of his ability to read offensive formations and understand how coverage needed to adapt than because of his athletic ability. I think he also often understood where the weaknesses were in the coverage and did his best to shade toward covering the weakness. But, his athletic skills weren't optimal for slot coverage and I think he was beginning to lose a bit of the athleticism he did have (like I said, though, I think he did a decent job last year, and I imagine he will do reasonably well for the Raiders this year). Hopefully, one of the young guys will have the athletic ability to make up for the loss of Roger's savvy so that we don't have a fall off at that position - or maybe even an improvement.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by ChazBoner:
we're good. my only concern is the DB's chemistry working together. New SS, new nickle CB, Culliver back in after a full year off. They will need to work hard to get that chemistry going. Talent wise, they're fine tho.

I agree, on paper they look very strong - talent wise. Nickel and dime defenses will be tested this year, as I expect the offense to score more and score often. That means I hope teams have to pass to catch up and they will have to deal with a much stronger nickel D than last year.

May take a game or two but I have faith in the coaches to have them playing well together. Bethea might be the difference if he can help Reid's progress.

Originally posted by 49erphan:

I think that Carlos Rogers did an okay job last year covering the slot - more because of his ability to read offensive formations and understand how coverage needed to adapt than because of his athletic ability. I think he also often understood where the weaknesses were in the coverage and did his best to shade toward covering the weakness. But, his athletic skills weren't optimal for slot coverage and I think he was beginning to lose a bit of the athleticism he did have (like I said, though, I think he did a decent job last year, and I imagine he will do reasonably well for the Raiders this year). Hopefully, one of the young guys will have the athletic ability to make up for the loss of Roger's savvy so that we don't have a fall off at that position - or maybe even an improvement.

Yeah, agree he was losing his quickness and ability to jump routes. It's a tough position to play. You need speed and athleticism that can't always be coached. Defense is more athleticism whereas offense is more scheme and understanding.

I think choice of reid last year and ward this year were spot on. I've been complaining about the Nickel defense for a long time and the front office listened to me! that goes to show you how smart they are.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by ChazBoner:

we're good. my only concern is the DB's chemistry working together. New SS, new nickle CB, Culliver back in after a full year off. They will need to work hard to get that chemistry going. Talent wise, they're fine tho.

I agree, on paper they look very strong - talent wise. Nickel and dime defenses will be tested this year, as I expect the offense to score more and score often. That means I hope teams have to pass to catch up and they will have to deal with a much stronger nickel D than last year.

May take a game or two but I have faith in the coaches to have them playing well together. Bethea might be the difference if he can help Reid's progress.

As long as there is a pass rush, they should be fine. I'm looking forward to Lynch, Lemon - yay, and Carradine to inject some much needed youth and talent on an aging D-line. If these guys can generate some heat, that young secondary will get a jump in confidence.

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

Originally posted by LVJay:

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

Originally posted by LVJay:

Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:

Originally posted by LVJay:
Brock, Reid, Bethea and Spillman are the locks.

Other side of Brock - Cully, Cox or Cookie. We'll just have to see about Cully's status (recovery and/or league discipline?) throughout TC and preseason. I'm okay with Cox (he's solid), but if anyone (Cookie, Johnson, Acker or whomever) can unseat Cox, then that's saying a lot right there.

Morris is doing his part to play the slot... did all he was asked to do in OTAs and it seemed like he impressed the coaches. He's the fastest, not afraid to hit someone going full throttle and has serious closing speed. The rookie yr is out of the way, he's focused and determined to win that spot. Did I mention he has serious closing speed

Ward was a smart pick (put him anywhere / backs up any spot), but I don't think he'll be a full starter this year unless someone gets hurt or a couple of guys don't pan out and get cut/practice squad. Ward will be competing with Morris and (IF) he beats him out, then it will be Morris that will be the back up to Ward. IMO, we're good with either one playing the slot. Of all the rookie DBs, Ward (of course) is the lock even though he is still recovering from injury (unless coaches think otherwise).

If Johnson and Acker step up and makes it (seriously) difficult for coaches to decide which one hits the PS, then that's a plus and definitely helps solidify our secondary.

Dahl, Mc Cray Cray, Ventrone and DJ Campbell... we'll see but..............

I seriously disagree here. IMHO, there isn't anyone on the roster who's better, more tailor made, than Ward for the nickle spot - NOBODY! Granted, Ward will have to earn his way on the field, as it should be. But lets face it, he's a first rounder, so hell get EVERY chance to earn the starting nickleback job. I remember last season many Zoners were saying the same thing about one Eric Reid and doubting him, and I thought then, as I think of Ward now, that he'd be our opening day starter. Now, I like Morris and hope we find a way to keep him on the 53. He'd be a starter on most teams. But I fully expect that Ward WILL earn that nickle spot, and I may be among the few here who thinks that. So for me there isn't an "IF" about it. Jimmie Ward will be a full participant for the REAL training camp when real jobs are on the line. And the fact he was held out of the rookie & voluntary camp will have absolutely no baring whatsoever on his ability to earn the starting nickle/slot CB spot. The guy had a Jones fracture, that he didn't even know he had until he had the routine medical examination at the scouting combine. Hell, many people that get this injury don't even know they have this fracture, especially athletes. In fact, Ward said he didn't even feel it, nor did he have any symptoms from it. I think people are making WAY too much of Ward not being at camp.


IMHO

I was waiting for you to find my comment (possible Ward/Morris dilemma), then quote me on it... what took you so long?

First off, about Reid, some in here may have had doubts, but I think many of us (including you/me) had a good feeling he'd pan out... he really had no choice since Goldson split and his first round status came with a lot of expectations. He got a lot of praise by the staff since he was drafted and he stepped up big time (Goldson who?!) There wasn't much after Whitner (Dahl/Spillman) at safety so, Reid was next in line... he only had to prove it in TC/preseason and the job was all his.

Ward really doesn't have the pressure Reid had (filling in shoes in a hurry). We have Brock/Cully and Morris/Cox/Cook/Mc Cray Cray/two other rooks. But stiil, I hope he's all healed up and ready to go full throttle. I think he would go all out even without 100% recovery. He's determined to prove all doubters wrong and mostly prove to himself that he can excel in the next level.

HOWEVER, because of his injury (didn't do much in OTAs), I believe Morris is far ahead of him (physically). Not to mention, he's got a year of the playbook/system down. He knows that Ward is expected to start, but Morris' pride and focus motivates him to make that leap from yr one to yr two.

I hope Ward gives Morris hell at competition. One of them is going to start and the other will be back up... when the back up steps in (be that Ward or Morris) we won't miss a beat. That's going to be one of our strong points in the secondary (IMHO).

BTW, I love Ward's history/story (the underdog all his life)... I'm always down with underdogs and TBH, I want him to be the starter, I don't want our first rounder benchwarming (not at that position). Although, it is clear that Morris is ahead of him as far as the one yr in the system and because he also has a lot of talent and speed (he's no dump truck)

Ward can be a quick learner and he's got the skill set/determination... we'll all be rooting for him. But keep in mind, Morris isn't going to be a little bump that Ward can easily hurdle over. Competition will be good.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree

I don't disagree with your logic, It's quite sound. What I differ with you is on the outcome. IMHO, there's nobody on the roster better than Ward at the nickle CB spot, Morris included. IMHO, I think people are putting WAY too much stock in Ward missing rookie & mini camps. IMHO, people are getting way too caught up on the words (injury and surgery) rather than the realities of the condition itself (Jones fracture). Ward's "injury" wasn't even noticed by him until a routine pre-combine exam. Ward felt no symptoms, no pain, (both common for Jones fractures) and was actually fully capable of participating in the combine. In fact, at his pro-day just a month after the combine Ward showed no signs at all of an injury (running a 4.45 40, 38 vertical, and 101 broad jump). Hence, why he'll be fully ready for TC. For me, this was the NFL taking precautions. Ward had already put more than enough on film that not participating in the combine wouldn't have hurt his draft status, and it didn't. Sure, V. Fangio will make him earn it, as he should. So starting out in TC Morris/Cook/Cox will get the "start". (Unlike many, I don't get all lathered up on who "starts" during TC and pre-season games, especially before the first cut-downs.) But the minute this kid is put on the field it's gonna become quite clear who's better for the job. Do n't get me wrong. I'm not dismissing Morris. I like the kid, but he ain't no Jimmie Ward. And V. Fangio and JH aren't stubborn fools either. They are gonna field the best 11, rookie or not. I don't care how "ahead" Morris is over Ward, IMHO Morris is nowhere near the defender that Ward is, and that's why he'll get the start!!

Clearly, it was the staff that just wanted to give Ward more time to rest (no need to rush) even though the injury isn't serious... eliminating any chance of a set back. That gave him more time to read up on the playbook and spectate a little. The coaches pretty much know about his skill set/abilities, but the real test is yet to come. Morris has already been tested at the pro level (very minimal at CB). The staff has a feel on him already and the potential he has is yet to be displayed. The true test is coming...

TBH, I want Ward to be the starter, but to mention Morris is "nowhere near the defender that Ward is" ... I just need to see them compete in TC/preseason and maybe a few real games. I think it would be better if Ward convincingly takes the job by command in camp (no surprise if he does). That way, Morris can be the solid back up, but still do most of his damage on ST (where we really need his speed).

Cannot disagree with anything there Bro. But I don't think Morris, while good, is the defender that Ward is, and I think people are gonna see that as camp progresses. Hell, neither is Cook and especially not Cox for that matter. I have Morris ahead of the two. Now, I have my doubts about Morris being able to make the 53, unless we keep 7 CB's (I got us keeping 6), if Acker is put on the PS (he won't last there, trust me), or if we suffer an injury. I know that's not the popular belief around here but I see the numbers game hitting Morris - I hope not though. . .

Because he's got a steep learning curve ahead of him and because of Morris' potential, I feel that it's very possible that Ward may not be the starter (at least not right away). However, I'm sure he's digging into that playbook like no one else business and he's determined to beat out Morris/anyone... it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, that's what he was brought in to do. The true test is coming and we'll see a lot of battles (different positions)... in the secondary especially. Can't wait, it will be interesting.

On a side note, I do hope that I'm one of the few in the minority here and that Ward proves my opinion wrong... I hope Ward pulls through.

Originally posted by Giedi:
As long as there is a pass rush, they should be fine. I'm looking forward to Lynch, Lemon - yay, and Carradine to inject some much needed youth and talent on an aging D-line. If these guys can generate some heat, that young secondary will get a jump in confidence.

I expect the pass rush to be better this year if the line is healthier. A more aggressive backfield helps the rush, just as the rush helps the backfield. The amazing thing about the team going into this year is that I'm not as concerned about losing an Aldon or a Culliver because there are solid back ups and back ups to back ups for every poisition. My hope is for some early blowouts so that the young DLs and LBs can get some time on the field.

Originally posted by LVJay:

Because he's got a steep learning curve ahead of him and because of Morris' potential, I feel that it's very possible that Ward may not be the starter (at least not right away). However, I'm sure he's digging into that playbook like no one else business and he's determined to beat out Morris/anyone... it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, that's what he was brought in to do. The true test is coming and we'll see a lot of battles (different positions)... in the secondary especially. Can't wait, it will be interesting.

On a side note, I do hope that I'm one of the few in the minority here and that Ward proves my opinion wrong... I hope Ward pulls through.

All ward has to do to beat any of the DB's is simply to make plays. Yes, knowledge of the playbook and familiarity with your teammates is important. All that, though, should lead Morris to make more plays than ward. But if ward can simply make as much plays as morris then most likely he'll be the starter. First round picks get a benefit of the doubt. Just look at how crappy AJ Jenkins was and he made the team as a first rounder anyway. If he was a 5th or later Haarbalke would probably have cut him.

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by LVJay:
Because he's got a steep learning curve ahead of him and because of Morris' potential, I feel that it's very possible that Ward may not be the starter (at least not right away). However, I'm sure he's digging into that playbook like no one else business and he's determined to beat out Morris/anyone... it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, that's what he was brought in to do. The true test is coming and we'll see a lot of battles (different positions)... in the secondary especially. Can't wait, it will be interesting.

On a side note, I do hope that I'm one of the few in the minority here and that Ward proves my opinion wrong... I hope Ward pulls through.

All ward has to do to beat any of the DB's is simply to make plays. Yes, knowledge of the playbook and familiarity with your teammates is important. All that, though, should lead Morris to make more plays than ward. But if ward can simply make as much plays as morris then most likely he'll be the starter. First round picks get a benefit of the doubt. Just look at how crappy AJ Jenkins was and he made the team as a first rounder anyway. If he was a 5th or later Haarbalke would probably have cut him.

Instinct is key to playing DB and Ward is suppose to have great instincts. If the other guys have great instincts it should have shown up last year, no?

Originally posted by Giedi:
All ward has to do to beat any of the DB's is simply to make plays. Yes, knowledge of the playbook and familiarity with your teammates is important. All that, though, should lead Morris to make more plays than ward. But if ward can simply make as much plays as morris then most likely he'll be the starter. First round picks get a benefit of the doubt. Just look at how crappy AJ Jenkins was and he made the team as a first rounder anyway. If he was a 5th or later Haarbalke would probably have cut him.

It would be awesome if they both do real well in TC/preseason and make it difficult for coaches to decide which one starts. But still, I'd prefer Morris be the back up so he can do his thing on ST (we need his speed there)... hopefully, he puts in time at returning punts/kick offs too.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Instinct is key to playing DB and Ward is suppose to have great instincts. If the other guys have great instincts it should have shown up last year, no?

Yeah, that's true of Ward, plus he's versatile.

In Fangio's mind/system, Vets like T. Brown/C. Rogers/P. Cox were going to get the nod before Morris, no doubt. But with a yr under his belt and crazy speed, he'll get more looks in TC/preseason, especially with Brown/Rogers gone.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Originally posted by NYniner85:
what makes you think this? And Ward can't participate in camp because he doesn't know how to play CB or safety,which he played both college?

Effusive optimism will give way to frantic dealmaking by the third week of camp of it looks like cully is not 100 percent and the new kids blow assignments once in a while. It's a small possibility. For ward I am saying that missing camp hurts his readiness because he needs to learn two positions in our system.

Sure there are always small possibilities, but I don't think there are any FA that would jump everyone and be a starting CB at this point. if Cully can't go (no setbacks yet) Cook has experience, he's had a good off-season thus far and he hasn't gotten to play press man yet. I think we have gotten faster, bigger, and younger in the secondary and the only thing I'm worried about is all the players meshing, but that's what training camp is for

We'll see in a month. Injuries are also an xfactor. It's open season on soft tissue now. I mean, training camp is about to start.

The pass rush could be the great equalizer here. But I don't see Fangio getting aggressive enough with blitzes to increase our pressures/hits/sacks by 15-35%.

Unless he gets a personalityectomy, or something.

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by Giedi:

Originally posted by LVJay:

Because he's got a steep learning curve ahead of him and because of Morris' potential, I feel that it's very possible that Ward may not be the starter (at least not right away). However, I'm sure he's digging into that playbook like no one else business and he's determined to beat out Morris/anyone... it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, that's what he was brought in to do. The true test is coming and we'll see a lot of battles (different positions)... in the secondary especially. Can't wait, it will be interesting.

On a side note, I do hope that I'm one of the few in the minority here and that Ward proves my opinion wrong... I hope Ward pulls through.

All ward has to do to beat any of the DB's is simply to make plays. Yes, knowledge of the playbook and familiarity with your teammates is important. All that, though, should lead Morris to make more plays than ward. But if ward can simply make as much plays as morris then most likely he'll be the starter. First round picks get a benefit of the doubt. Just look at how crappy AJ Jenkins was and he made the team as a first rounder anyway. If he was a 5th or later Haarbalke would probably have cut him.

Instinct is key to playing DB and Ward is suppose to have great instincts. If the other guys have great instincts it should have shown up last year, no?

That is a question best answered by TC. If they all have developed, then those instincts *will* show up in preseason and TC. That's why as much as I like Ward. I still think Morris has a good shot. As much as Blaine looks like a lock at #2, I think Josh has a shot.

Originally posted by LVJay:

It would be awesome if they both do real well in TC/preseason and make it difficult for coaches to decide which one starts. But still, I'd prefer Morris be the back up so he can do his thing on ST (we need his speed there)... hopefully, he puts in time at returning punts/kick offs too.
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Yeah, that's true of Ward, plus he's versatile.

In Fangio's mind/system, Vets like T. Brown/C. Rogers/P. Cox were going to get the nod before Morris, no doubt. But with a yr under his belt and crazy speed, he'll get more looks in TC/preseason, especially with Brown/Rogers gone.

I still remember the '81 rookies starting. I don't think it was Chuck Studly's call, I think that was Walsh's call. I think if Ward gets a nod over Bethea (or any of the rookie DB's getting a nod over a veteran starter), then I bet Harbaugh made the decision there, not fangio. I just don't see Fangio a risk taker like Seifert was. There is good and bad in that.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

We'll see in a month. Injuries are also an xfactor. It's open season on soft tissue now. I mean, training camp is about to start.

The pass rush could be the great equalizer here. But I don't see Fangio getting aggressive enough with blitzes to increase our pressures/hits/sacks by 15-35%.

Unless he gets a personalityectomy, or something.

The championship Steelers rarely blitzed too, they were good enough to get pressure with a 4 man line. I hope Jerod-Eddie, Tank, Lynch, and Lemonier (and the rest of the D-line) are so good that Fangio can copy the steeler scheme.