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Originally posted by NYniner85:what makes you think this? And Ward can't participate in camp because he doesn't know how to play CB or safety,which he played both college?
Originally posted by NCommand:
When I was watching his "low"-lights in Minnesota, what I noticed is that he was matched up against the best WR's and was always in their hip pocket with ZERO safety help. Some of those catches over him were pretty amazing as well (just great plays). The one thing that stood out to me was his timing on making a play on the ball. One technique Donatell teaches here is how to read the body language of the WR and when to get your hands in there last second. You've probably seen it yourself...if our CB is trailing, the ball is coming in and the CB has his back to the QB and just as the WR motions to make the catch, our DB will swipe down into the mid section (high to low). This does two things...the high part possibly is enough to contest the ball and the swipe down allows them leverage in case the catch is made to plant and rip the ball out (we see this a lot). I have little doubt, Cook would get much better range and help from the S's over the top and if he can get this technique down, with his press abilities, size, speed and experience, he could end up being a gem for us and genuinely challenge Culliver and Johnson for the #2 CB position.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by NCommand:
When I was watching his "low"-lights in Minnesota, what I noticed is that he was matched up against the best WR's and was always in their hip pocket with ZERO safety help. Some of those catches over him were pretty amazing as well (just great plays). The one thing that stood out to me was his timing on making a play on the ball. One technique Donatell teaches here is how to read the body language of the WR and when to get your hands in there last second. You've probably seen it yourself...if our CB is trailing, the ball is coming in and the CB has his back to the QB and just as the WR motions to make the catch, our DB will swipe down into the mid section (high to low). This does two things...the high part possibly is enough to contest the ball and the swipe down allows them leverage in case the catch is made to plant and rip the ball out (we see this a lot). I have little doubt, Cook would get much better range and help from the S's over the top and if he can get this technique down, with his press abilities, size, speed and experience, he could end up being a gem for us and genuinely challenge Culliver and Johnson for the #2 CB position.
No one does this. The typical nfl corner doesn't make a play with his back to the ball. Too much else going on. That's what makes a shut down corner a shut down corner. Instinct, crazy hips, crazy upper body control, reaction. I'm not sure technique is the key ingredient there.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
No one does this. The typical nfl corner doesn't make a play with his back to the ball. Too much else going on. That's what makes a shut down corner a shut down corner. Instinct, crazy hips, crazy upper body control, reaction. I'm not sure technique is the key ingredient there.
Originally posted by LVJay:Cannot disagree with anything there Bro. But I don't think Morris, while good, is the defender that Ward is, and I think people are gonna see that as camp progresses. Hell, neither is Cook and especially not Cox for that matter. I have Morris ahead of the two. Now, I have my doubts about Morris being able to make the 53, unless we keep 7 CB's (I got us keeping 6), if Acker is put on the PS (he won't last there, trust me), or if we suffer an injury. I know that's not the popular belief around here but I see the numbers game hitting Morris - I hope not though. . .
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:
Originally posted by LVJay:I guess we'll have to agree to disagree
Originally posted by 9ersLiferInChicago:I was waiting for you to find my comment (possible Ward/Morris dilemma), then quote me on it... what took you so long?
Originally posted by LVJay:I seriously disagree here. IMHO, there isn't anyone on the roster who's better, more tailor made, than Ward for the nickle spot - NOBODY! Granted, Ward will have to earn his way on the field, as it should be. But lets face it, he's a first rounder, so hell get EVERY chance to earn the starting nickleback job. I remember last season many Zoners were saying the same thing about one Eric Reid and doubting him, and I thought then, as I think of Ward now, that he'd be our opening day starter. Now, I like Morris and hope we find a way to keep him on the 53. He'd be a starter on most teams. But I fully expect that Ward WILL earn that nickle spot, and I may be among the few here who thinks that. So for me there isn't an "IF" about it. Jimmie Ward will be a full participant for the REAL training camp when real jobs are on the line. And the fact he was held out of the rookie & voluntary camp will have absolutely no baring whatsoever on his ability to earn the starting nickle/slot CB spot. The guy had a Jones fracture, that he didn't even know he had until he had the routine medical examination at the scouting combine. Hell, many people that get this injury don't even know they have this fracture, especially athletes. In fact, Ward said he didn't even feel it, nor did he have any symptoms from it. I think people are making WAY too much of Ward not being at camp.
Brock, Reid, Bethea and Spillman are the locks.
Other side of Brock - Cully, Cox or Cookie. We'll just have to see about Cully's status (recovery and/or league discipline?) throughout TC and preseason. I'm okay with Cox (he's solid), but if anyone (Cookie, Johnson, Acker or whomever) can unseat Cox, then that's saying a lot right there.
Morris is doing his part to play the slot... did all he was asked to do in OTAs and it seemed like he impressed the coaches. He's the fastest, not afraid to hit someone going full throttle and has serious closing speed. The rookie yr is out of the way, he's focused and determined to win that spot. Did I mention he has serious closing speed
Ward was a smart pick (put him anywhere / backs up any spot), but I don't think he'll be a full starter this year unless someone gets hurt or a couple of guys don't pan out and get cut/practice squad. Ward will be competing with Morris and (IF) he beats him out, then it will be Morris that will be the back up to Ward. IMO, we're good with either one playing the slot. Of all the rookie DBs, Ward (of course) is the lock even though he is still recovering from injury (unless coaches think otherwise).
If Johnson and Acker step up and makes it (seriously) difficult for coaches to decide which one hits the PS, then that's a plus and definitely helps solidify our secondary.
Dahl, Mc Cray Cray, Ventrone and DJ Campbell... we'll see but..............
IMHO
First off, about Reid, some in here may have had doubts, but I think many of us (including you/me) had a good feeling he'd pan out... he really had no choice since Goldson split and his first round status came with a lot of expectations. He got a lot of praise by the staff since he was drafted and he stepped up big time (Goldson who?!)There wasn't much after Whitner (Dahl/Spillman) at safety so, Reid was next in line... he only had to prove it in TC/preseason and the job was all his.
Ward really doesn't have the pressure Reid had (filling in shoes in a hurry). We have Brock/Cully and Morris/Cox/Cook/Mc Cray Cray/two other rooks. But stiil, I hope he's all healed up and ready to go full throttle. I think he would go all out even without 100% recovery. He's determined to prove all doubters wrong and mostly prove to himself that he can excel in the next level.
HOWEVER, because of his injury (didn't do much in OTAs), I believe Morris is far ahead of him (physically). Not to mention, he's got a year of the playbook/system down. He knows that Ward is expected to start, but Morris' pride and focus motivates him to make that leap from yr one to yr two.
I hope Ward gives Morris hell at competition. One of them is going to start and the other will be back up... when the back up steps in (be that Ward or Morris) we won't miss a beat. That's going to be one of our strong points in the secondary (IMHO).
BTW, I love Ward's history/story (the underdog all his life)... I'm always down with underdogs and TBH, I want him to be the starter, I don't want our first rounder benchwarming (not at that position). Although, it is clear that Morris is ahead of him as far as the one yr in the system and because he also has a lot of talent and speed (he's no dump truck)
Ward can be a quick learner and he's got the skill set/determination... we'll all be rooting for him. But keep in mind, Morris isn't going to be a little bump that Ward can easily hurdle over. Competition will be good.
I don't disagree with your logic, It's quite sound. What I differ with you is on the outcome. IMHO, there's nobody on the roster better than Ward at the nickle CB spot, Morris included. IMHO, I think people are putting WAY too much stock in Ward missing rookie & mini camps. IMHO, people are getting way too caught up on the words (injury and surgery) rather than the realities of the condition itself (Jones fracture). Ward's "injury" wasn't even noticed by him until a routine pre-combine exam. Ward felt no symptoms, no pain, (both common for Jones fractures) and was actually fully capable of participating in the combine. In fact, at his pro-day just a month after the combine Ward showed no signs at all of an injury (running a 4.45 40, 38 vertical, and 101 broad jump). Hence, why he'll be fully ready for TC. For me, this was the NFL taking precautions. Ward had already put more than enough on film that not participating in the combine wouldn't have hurt his draft status, and it didn't. Sure, V. Fangio will make him earn it, as he should. So starting out in TC Morris/Cook/Cox will get the "start". (Unlike many, I don't get all lathered up on who "starts" during TC and pre-season games, especially before the first cut-downs.) But the minute this kid is put on the field it's gonna become quite clear who's better for the job. Do n't get me wrong. I'm not dismissing Morris. I like the kid, but he ain't no Jimmie Ward. And V. Fangio and JH aren't stubborn fools either. They are gonna field the best 11, rookie or not. I don't care how "ahead" Morris is over Ward, IMHO Morris is nowhere near the defender that Ward is, and that's why he'll get the start!!
Clearly, it was the staff that just wanted to give Ward more time to rest (no need to rush) even though the injury isn't serious... eliminating any chance of a set back. That gave him more time to read up on the playbook and spectate a little. The coaches pretty much know about his skill set/abilities, but the real test is yet to come. Morris has already been tested at the pro level (very minimal at CB). The staff has a feel on him already and the potential he has is yet to be displayed. The true test is coming...
TBH, I want Ward to be the starter, but to mention Morris is "nowhere near the defender that Ward is" ... I just need to see them compete in TC/preseason and maybe a few real games. I think it would be better if Ward convincingly takes the job by command in camp (no surprise if he does). That way, Morris can be the solid back up, but still do most of his damage on ST (where we really need his speed).
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
There were so many instances of CBs with their backs to the QB last year I'm not sure why you would state this. Many times they were in position but did nothing to break up the pass or turn their heads...they just watched and then pushed the WR out of bounds. Perhaps you are referring to something else?
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
There were so many instances of CBs with their backs to the QB last year I'm not sure why you would state this. Many times they were in position but did nothing to break up the pass or turn their heads...they just watched and then pushed the WR out of bounds. Perhaps you are referring to something else?
Yes. I am saying that. I am stating CB's dont turn and play balls in the air. They dog the receiver and don't turn. The ones that turn and make a play are rare and do so more on the basis of natural ability than trained technique. That is what I am saying.
Originally posted by swayze:
Unless I read the original post wrong, we aren't asking them to. We are asking them to read the receivers body language and swipe at the ball to contest the pass or put them in position to knock it out once it's in the receiver's hands.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
There were so many instances of CBs with their backs to the QB last year I'm not sure why you would state this. Many times they were in position but did nothing to break up the pass or turn their heads...they just watched and then pushed the WR out of bounds. Perhaps you are referring to something else?
Yes. I am saying that. I am stating CB's dont turn and play balls in the air. They dog the receiver and don't turn. The ones that turn and make a play are rare and do so more on the basis of natural ability than trained technique. That is what I am saying.
Originally posted by ChazBoner:we're good. my only concern is the DB's chemistry working together. New SS, new nickle CB, Culliver back in after a full year off. They will need to work hard to get that chemistry going. Talent wise, they're fine tho.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
I predict more interceptions this year and a few more TDs allowed. These guys are young, fast, intelligence and it seems Fangio/Donatel want to play a more aggressive game this year...I'm extremely exciting at this prospect! More defensive TDs will help the offense.
