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All22 analysis: Red Zone issues

  • Phil
  • Member
  • Posts: 1,498
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Man that Tampa game, it looks like all the disruption was from the center position. I really hope Martin can fix that up for us.

It was Adam Snyder on the play breakdown in this thread.
#27 (#2 POs)

1st & 10
Quick screen right to Crabs.


The blue CB is able to get around Vance.


Kap red lights the throw to Crabs and scrambles left. He must run it now, or else it's ineligible WR downfield (Iupati, Boone). Gain of zero as he gets pushed out of bounds.


2nd & 10
Guard lead left. Boone pulling with Tukuafu folllowing. Orange is the FS.


Gore has a nice lane to go through. Orange is the only player to stop Gore.


Gore for +4.


3rd & 6



Kap goes with the backside matchup Crabs versus House.


The concept side was well covered by GB. Double coverage on VD. Pattern match on Boldin. Incomplete. Bring on the FG unit.
#28? (#3 of POs)

Game situation: Tie game. 4th Quarter :30 seconds
1st & 10

Gore for +2. Bring on the game winning FG.
  • Phil
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  • Posts: 1,498
Member Milestone: This is post number 600 for Phil.
Originally posted by thl408:
#27 (#2 POs)

How many passes to Crabtree in the endzone have been incomplete since Kaepernick took over? That would be an interesting stat.
[ Edited by Phil on Jul 2, 2014 at 11:12 PM ]
Can anyone enlighten me to the types of formations and concepts the more successful red zone teams implement? I'm noticing a pattern of not terrible play calling, but just not creative enough. Kaep can do better, and some crappy calls put us in bad situations, also think Stevie and Hyde can make a big difference.
[ Edited by T-9ers on Jul 3, 2014 at 1:09 AM ]
Originally posted by thl408:
#26 (#1 of playoffs)

1st & Goal
Play action roll right


The blue defender does not bite on the play fake by Kap, or the run block fake by VD.




Kap throws it to VD as VD works his way back towards the middle. CB breaks it up.


Incomplete


2nd & Goal
Play fake, rollout right. Triangle concept


Osgood and VD are held up at the line as Kap completes a play fake and rolls right.


Gore's block gets the defender on the ground. Kap has time, but no one becomes open as he runs out of field to roll right. Thrown away for an incomplete pass.


3rd & Goal
Back shoulder fades on each side.


Kap selects the matchup of Crabs versus House.


Bring on the FG unit.

Specifically concerning the triangle concept, I believe this will be a big go to set of plays in 2014. With the newer personnel, these concepts should be stealing. Taking the above as an example, I would like to see SJ isolated on the backside, boldin dotting the bunch, VD in tight, and crabs right next to boldin in the bunch.

If the defense rolls coverage to deal with the bunch side that leaves SJ isolated to go to work. If it's vice versa, the bunch can be schemed to tear up the coverage. The flexibility the new personnel allows is really great and if the offense is gonna take the next step, this will be a big reason why.
Personally, the main problem is play-calling. That is, plays are telegraphed by personnel and formation. Blocking and other assignment breakdowns occur mostly due to defenders getting to spots sooner than expected. This is because the Niners' formations are read too easily by the defense. For instance, why not pass out of two back formations? Pass up the middle to the FB? Go four wide and run? Another poster mentioned passing more often on first down. The one time I remember throwing out of a run formation was a wide open TD to Vernon.
Terrific topic/work fellas. I would love an overall summary of our tendencies...areas we could improve upon this season.
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Personally, the main problem is play-calling. That is, plays are telegraphed by personnel and formation. Blocking and other assignment breakdowns occur mostly due to defenders getting to spots sooner than expected. This is because the Niners' formations are read too easily by the defense. For instance, why not pass out of two back formations? Pass up the middle to the FB? Go four wide and run? Another poster mentioned passing more often on first down. The one time I remember throwing out of a run formation was a wide open TD to Vernon.

I would love to see us come out in an Iform or strong I form on first down and run a z spot or a flanker drive or if it's a cover 2 run a Texas concept using miller and VD. Not only would I like to see this in the red zone, but I would love to see this same approach to the rest of the field.
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,347
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Personally, the main problem is play-calling. That is, plays are telegraphed by personnel and formation. Blocking and other assignment breakdowns occur mostly due to defenders getting to spots sooner than expected. This is because the Niners' formations are read too easily by the defense. For instance, why not pass out of two back formations? Pass up the middle to the FB? Go four wide and run? Another poster mentioned passing more often on first down. The one time I remember throwing out of a run formation was a wide open TD to Vernon.

I would love to see us come out in an Iform or strong I form on first down and run a z spot or a flanker drive or if it's a cover 2 run a Texas concept using miller and VD. Not only would I like to see this in the red zone, but I would love to see this same approach to the rest of the field.

The red zone defenders use the back of the endzone as an extra DB - specially for those bend-but-don't-break defenses. They have an extra man (so to speak) to take a QB'S first and second options away. So you have to be able to run it in against those defenses. Second problem is they will be using a lot of pressure defenses because the WR's dont have the room to go deep. The big problem was goodwin's blocking and Colin's inability to rapidly get to his third options once red zone defenses took away his first and second options, and/or when defenses used pressure schemes.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Personally, the main problem is play-calling. That is, plays are telegraphed by personnel and formation. Blocking and other assignment breakdowns occur mostly due to defenders getting to spots sooner than expected. This is because the Niners' formations are read too easily by the defense. For instance, why not pass out of two back formations? Pass up the middle to the FB? Go four wide and run? Another poster mentioned passing more often on first down. The one time I remember throwing out of a run formation was a wide open TD to Vernon.

I would love to see us come out in an Iform or strong I form on first down and run a z spot or a flanker drive or if it's a cover 2 run a Texas concept using miller and VD. Not only would I like to see this in the red zone, but I would love to see this same approach to the rest of the field.

The red zone defenders use the back of the endzone as an extra DB - specially for those bend-but-don't-break defenses. They have an extra man (so to speak) to take a QB'S first and second options away. So you have to be able to run it in against those defenses. Second problem is they will be using a lot of pressure defenses because the WR's dont have the room to go deep. The big problem was goodwin's blocking and Colin's inability to rapidly get to his third options once red zone defenses took away his first and second options, and/or when defenses used pressure schemes.

The reasons you mentioned are why I like what I described more in the case of entering the redzone.

As far as short yardage goal situations, I like heavy play fakes from jumbo forms (we do this a lot) and sprint option type passes that try to out flank the defense. I think kaep could excell at this with his legs.
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 2,347
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by Paul_Hofer:
Personally, the main problem is play-calling. That is, plays are telegraphed by personnel and formation. Blocking and other assignment breakdowns occur mostly due to defenders getting to spots sooner than expected. This is because the Niners' formations are read too easily by the defense. For instance, why not pass out of two back formations? Pass up the middle to the FB? Go four wide and run? Another poster mentioned passing more often on first down. The one time I remember throwing out of a run formation was a wide open TD to Vernon.

I would love to see us come out in an Iform or strong I form on first down and run a z spot or a flanker drive or if it's a cover 2 run a Texas concept using miller and VD. Not only would I like to see this in the red zone, but I would love to see this same approach to the rest of the field.

The red zone defenders use the back of the endzone as an extra DB - specially for those bend-but-don't-break defenses. They have an extra man (so to speak) to take a QB'S first and second options away. So you have to be able to run it in against those defenses. Second problem is they will be using a lot of pressure defenses because the WR's dont have the room to go deep. The big problem was goodwin's blocking and Colin's inability to rapidly get to his third options once red zone defenses took away his first and second options, and/or when defenses used pressure schemes.

The reasons you mentioned are why I like what I described more in the case of entering the redzone.

As far as short yardage goal situations, I like heavy play fakes from jumbo forms (we do this a lot) and sprint option type passes that try to out flank the defense. I think kaep could excell at this with his legs.

Agree which is why I like the acquisition of Hyde, Lattimore, and the two Martin's. It gives us a stronger short yardage run option in the Red Zone. With VD and Vance (assuming vance continues to progress) and Celek and Carrier improve also in blocking and catching, the three tight end play-pass offense in the endzone will be unstoppable. Speed is unimportant in the redzone, quickness, power and vertical jump is more important. Vance, Ellington and Stevie have those in abundance and have the ability to post up, so to speak on passing downs. The remaining unknowns is how much faster Colin can read the redzone defenses this year vs. last year. If he wants to be a superbowl winning QB, he has to drastically improve his redzone performance.
Originally posted by T-9ers:
Can anyone enlighten me to the types of formations and concepts the more successful red zone teams implement? I'm noticing a pattern of not terrible play calling, but just not creative enough. Kaep can do better, and some crappy calls put us in bad situations, also think Stevie and Hyde can make a big difference.

Here's a recent article that touches on that. When I watch Brady and Peyton operate in the red zone, there are a lot of rub routes being used to run interference on the man coverage defenders. Generally speaking, defenses will play man coverage in the red zone. What separates those QBs from the rest of the league when it comes to red zone passing is their anticipation of when a WR will become open. Also, since a QB can never expect a WR to become completely open, a QB has to be able to locate the ball in a location that only their WR can catch, then have confidence in the WR to make the play.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2110604-nfl-101-introducing-the-basic-red-zone-route-combinations
Originally posted by T-9ers: p
Can anyone enlighten me to the types of formations and concepts the more successful red zone teams implement? I'm noticing a pattern of not terrible play calling, but just not creative enough. Kaep can do better, and some crappy calls put us in bad situations, also think Stevie and Hyde can make a big difference.

I'll work through this so Thl can stay on all his niners redzone stuff.

Here's a quick look at who performed best at scoring%(TD's only - because that's what we're trying to get, not FG)
The Broncos and Bengals had by far the highest red zone % in the NFL. The Broncos were 1st with 72.73% then the Bengals with 71.43%. Those were the only 2 teams with better than 70%. We were ranked right in the middle of the pack at 15 with 53.03% and 15-5 was rather tightly packed - 5 was KC with 59.68% ,so we were only 6.55% worse than the #5 red zone team, which really amounts to 5 TD's on the year(.3 per game). 5-1 obviously had a bigger spread from KC-DEN, a 13.05% difference.

Here's some of what Denver does:
They like to run a 3 by 1 isolation a lot(probably about 60-65% of the time - rough estimate based off film), but, they'll go balanced the other times. Bear in mind that Denver is primarily an 11 personnel offense(1 back, 1 TE, 3 WR). We can/do still run a lot of the same concepts out of our 2 TE package because we can still run a 3 by 1 unbalance.

Here's a particular play where you can see a major difference between a guy like Peyton Manning and Kap.



The defense comes out with a single safety look - showing a likely blitz based off of alignments, so Manning keeps the TE to block. Since the single safety is on the single receiver side Decker is removed from the play and runs a lazy slant. This brings the only reads to the wide side of the filed with Thomas and Welker in a stacked formation. They stack Welker behind Thomas to give Welker a free release and also keep the CB's from being able to have good leverage on their receiver because Baltimore - like us, like to pattern match their man coverage.



Denver's line does a great job in protection against the blitz, that is one nice pocket. Manning - because of his pre-snap read, looks directly over to the combo side. He's looking for which receiver is in better position. The defense actually does a pretty good job in coverage.



Here's the biggest difference between where Kap is as a QB and Manning. Manning doesn't try and rocket this throw in there and squeaze it into a super tight space, he puts the ball where only his receiver can get it. The red line is where Kap always throws these routes with tight coverage - a straight line out where he rockets the ball and our receivers often have a hard time handling the pass and it has to be put exactly on the money.

Instead, the yellow is where Manning puts the pass. He leads his receiver back so that the defender cannot get to the ball.



here you can see how Manning's placement allows Welker an easy catch and the ability to make a move after the catch.



Welker uses the space created to make his man miss and walks in a for a TD
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by T-9ers:
Can anyone enlighten me to the types of formations and concepts the more successful red zone teams implement? I'm noticing a pattern of not terrible play calling, but just not creative enough. Kaep can do better, and some crappy calls put us in bad situations, also think Stevie and Hyde can make a big difference.

Here's a recent article that touches on that. When I watch Brady and Peyton operate in the red zone, there are a lot of rub routes being used to run interference on the man coverage defenders. Generally speaking, defenses will play man coverage in the red zone. What separates those QBs from the rest of the league when it comes to red zone passing is their anticipation of when a WR will become open. Also, since a QB can never expect a WR to become completely open, a QB has to be able to locate the ball in a location that only their WR can catch, then have confidence in the WR to make the play.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2110604-nfl-101-introducing-the-basic-red-zone-route-combinations
here's an example of that "rub" route.



Here, again, Baltimore is playing man coverage with no safety this time. Denver is in a balanced set again and they're going to run a "rub" pattern up top with the lineman moving in a "stretch" pass blocking move. What they're doing is anticipating the blitz and moving the launch point for the QB. It's not a run fake.

Baltimore - in their man-coverage is trying to "pattern match", meaning - the outside defender will take the outside route and vice versa.



Right when Welker takes an outside cut, the defender immediately looks up to see if there's a slant coming his way - anticipating the rub. The outside defender however, does not do the same and locks onto Thomas on the slant.


You see how the inside defender has taken position on the slant, but the outside corner doesn't switch off to Welker.


This leaves Welker wide open for the TD.