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All22 analysis: Red Zone issues

Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by thl408:
#8

On both AZ defensive plays, it looks like AZ was run blitzing. On the gore +3 play and on the Kaep interception, they were playing very aggressive run defense in my opinion. The interception was I think a very late read by Colin and he should have thrown it away or taken a sack. If anything, both in the superbowl play against the Ravens and the seadderall play in the NFC Championship game, he's had trouble dealing with blitzes in the red zone. This probably what they are working on in the offseason. If an opposing team does not have quality recievers, it makes sense for a DC to run blitz them in the redzone.

Agreed on the bolded. In posts #23, #27, and #33, ARI was coming with cover0 every single time the 49ers dropped back to pass. A defense does this when they have no respect for the WR's ability to beat the CBs in man coverage. At this point in the season (week 6), the book was out on the 49ers WRs. They were substandard and the only legit WR was not a deep threat. I don't recall SEA ever blitzing in the entire nfccg and I'm fairly certain they did not blitz on the play I don't want to talk about anymore.
I like the design of the 2nd down play with one exeception. I do not like boot action involving the mesh concept because it essentially eliminates one of the options by making it a across body/field throw. Basically we were just using the mesh to get a rub and open up boldin as a secondary option. What I would have to see was Ham cut his route off almost like scramble drill style or Dwight Clark on the first catch play. That way he is at least a viable option and you almost get like a staggered flood type situation.
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by thl408:
Agreed on the bolded. In posts #23, #27, and #33, ARI was coming with cover0 every single time the 49ers dropped back to pass. A defense does this when they have no respect for the WR's ability to beat the CBs in man coverage. At this point in the season (week 6), the book was out on the 49ers WRs. They were substandard and the only legit WR was not a deep threat. I don't recall SEA ever blitzing in the entire nfccg and I'm fairly certain they did not blitz on the play I don't want to talk about anymore.

My bad, you are right, they didn't blitz in the NFC CG on that play. But Kaep misread it as Man I think. POint being is that a defense can give you all sorts of coverage looks in the redzone and screw with a QB's read because of the short field and the ability to use the back of the endzone as an extra DB. With that extra DB, they can blitz more and force a QB to basically be a one read QB. They couldn't do that against veterans like Montana and Young because of so many red zone reps, they already knew where their 3rd, 4rth and checkdown receivers no matter what the defense did.
1st Down
Power guard lead right as Snyder (filling in for injured Iupati) and Vance pull right.


Snyder targets his block. Vance follows closely behind. We've seen this play many times by now. Vance is to go through the hole as Snyder provides the kickout block. The blue defender will end up stuffing this play.


Vance decides to follow Snyder and does not lead Gore through the hole. Vance end sup blocking no one. The blue defender stops Gore.


Gore for +1. Watch as Miller gives Vance a little pat. Vance did not block his assignment.


2nd down & 9
49ers run what looks like routes designed to spread the defense horizontally.
NO: rush 3, drop 8 into what looks like cover3 with 5 underneath zone defenders.


Kap first looks to Boldin. Boldin is not open.


Kap then looks left.


Not liking what he sees, he scrambles left and ends up throwing the ball away. Incomplete pass.


3rd down & 9
NO will rush 6 while playing man coverage, doubling VD. Notice no safety in the middle of the field.


As soon as the ball is snapped, Kap targets VD on the backside with a back shoulder throw. Boldin has the middle of the field all to himself to work.


Perhaps with NO rushing 6, Kap thought he had to make a quick throw. Kap needs to see how open the middle of the field is and let Boldin go to work.


Some jersey tugging on VD, but VD looked like he was falling out of bounds even if he had caught the pass. Boldin is not happy with something. Bring on the FG unit.
Pretty clear throwing back shoulder fade doesn't come naturally to Kap at this point. Definitely something he has to improve on. It's a difficult throw to make for sure, and that wasn't the ideal circumstance to try and throw it.

I'm surprised he missed Boldin wide open in the middle of the field. Seems like Kap had his mind made up pre-snap. Judging by Boldin's reaction, that wasn't a case of the play locking Kap into one-read. Kap just failed to recognize the matchup.
[ Edited by SofaKing on Jun 18, 2014 at 5:14 PM ]
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by thl408:
1st Down
Power guard lead right as Snyder (filling in for injured Iupati) and Vance pull right.


Snyder targets his block. Vance follows closely behind. We've seen this play many times by now. Vance is to go through the hole as Snyder provides the kickout block. The blue defender will end up stuffing this play.


Vance decides to follow Snyder and does not lead Gore through the hole. Vance end sup blocking no one. The blue defender stops Gore.


Gore for +1. Watch as Miller gives Vance a little pat. Vance did not block his assignment.


2nd down & 9
49ers run what looks like routes designed to spread the defense horizontally.
NO: rush 3, drop 8 into what looks like cover3 with 5 underneath zone defenders.


Kap first looks to Boldin. Boldin is not open.


Kap then looks left.


Not liking what he sees, he scrambles left and ends up throwing the ball away. Incomplete pass.


3rd down & 9
NO will rush 6 while playing man coverage, doubling VD. Notice no safety in the middle of the field.


As soon as the ball is snapped, Kap targets VD on the backside with a back shoulder throw. Boldin has the middle of the field all to himself to work.


Perhaps with NO rushing 6, Kap thought he had to make a quick throw. Kap needs to see how open the middle of the field is and let Boldin go to work.


Some jersey tugging on VD, but VD looked like he was falling out of bounds even if he had caught the pass. Boldin is not happy with something. Bring on the FG unit.

First play was a 3 man rush, but the O line didn't do a good job of pass protection against a 3 man rush. Having said that, it looks like the Saints gave them a blitz look and dropped off 8 in coverage. Saints love to blitz in the redzone, so I don't really find Kaep too much to blame in not reading the 8 men in zone coverage.

The second play, clearly the Saints are really playing tight coverage in the right side of kaep's reads. Kaep is more comfortable, as all brand new QB's are, in looking to the right before looking to the left. They don't have the confidence and field awareness of looking to their left if their right side is tightly covered.

If you look at the stats in that game, Breesus is good on both sides of the field. 10/15 on the short left, and 14/16 on short right.

Kaep on the other hand -- 4 for 8 on short left, and 10 for 15 on short right. Clearly keep's left side field of vision is still way behind superbowl QB's like Breesus. Hopefully that improves a lot this next season.
I'm a very big kaep guy. However, my harshest critique of him is that last third down play. It always seemed to be in 3x1 sets and he seems to ignore the concept side and take the back shoulder throw. Even the slightest look to trip side and that is an easy td to anquan. If it is in fact a left side vision thing I would like to see the coaching staff flip these 3x1 sets and therefore put the concept more in his natural vision path.
Originally posted by Niners816:
I'm a very big kaep guy. However, my harshest critique of him is that last third down play. It always seemed to be in 3x1 sets and he seems to ignore the concept side and take the back shoulder throw. Even the slightest look to trip side and that is an easy td to anquan. If it is in fact a left side vision thing I would like to see the coaching staff flip these 3x1 sets and therefore put the concept more in his natural vision path.

I remember us having this conversation before when discussing a Spot play where Kap immediately looked to the backside WR instead of the triangle concept being ran on the playside. If I remember correctly, you stated that he looked to the backside a bit too often. After looking at a lot of the plays from last season, it does indeed seem like he will look backside when he gets man coverage there. I don't think it's a vision thing as I've seen him go backside whether it was to his left or his right. Is he too lazy to read the concept side post snap? Is he that confident in the WR vs CB matchup on the backside? Does he think that he has no time in the pocket to wait for the routes on the concept side to fully develop? Whatever the reason, this whole 'throwing to the backside WR' is starting to become pretty prevalent. This is where I hope Stevie J will shine, if the 49ers use him as the backside WR and allow him to carve up man coverage.



My issue with this play is that the middle of the field is wide open and he knows Boldin is about to run a skinny post that attacks the middle of the field. The blitz was coming so Kap knew he had to get rid of it quick, but take a look at the entire field (pre snap) and realize there's a gaping hole in the middle with your #1 WR in the slot. It's cover1 man but NO uses the FS to double cover VD. Boldin 1on1 in the slot, or VD on a back shoulder throw? I think we all know which throw would be considered 'playing to your strength'.

edit: He can go backside if it works. So go ahead and throw that Venus on the Spider3 Y banana. As long as it works.
[ Edited by thl408 on Jun 19, 2014 at 10:54 AM ]
My thoughts have always been they are "concepts/route combos" because they have a time tested track record of exploiting the coverages they were designed to. Therefore I'm a heavy proponent of using they when they are dialed up. I just don't believe concepts are called in order to decoy something else. I just think the percentage we seem to use backside fade is too high and it no longer serves the purpose of cAtching the defense off guard. Fades are easier to defend when you expect them because the ball is in the air longer than normal.

This is the tendency I wish we could break a bit because it really would open up both aspects of the 3x1 sets. If the defense has to roll coverage to the conceptside because you are killing them then that leaves the backside with true isolated coverage and therefore more effective. Kaep is just way too talented to miss boldin on that particular play and he is way too smart to let it develop into the sort of tell that has seemed to creep into his game.

Now having said all that, I agree with you, I love the thought of SJ going to work on the backside. However instead of fades I would like to see more short routes whether it's slants, ins or outs.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Jun 19, 2014 at 11:18 AM ]
I think the wee one in Seattle is the only human worthy enough to attempt the Venus on a spider y banana. But then again I get ALL of my football knowledge from Seahawks.net

You seen luck wasn't worthy enough to attempted it, but then again Seahawks.net tells me that because he had the horrible person that is jim harbaugh as his formative coach in college....you need a true saint like Pete Carroll to even think about taking the Venus. Anyway what does gruden know his Super Bowl was awhile ago and therefore it no longer counts.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Jun 19, 2014 at 11:31 AM ]
After reading this thread, I've come to the conclusions: 1. Gore is amazing. 2. Gore is still the best player on offense. Gore hasn't really slowed down, the rest of the offense just hasn't stepped up enough. Rathman is the best position coach on offense, and Gore still is amazing.
#11

1st down & 10
49ers will run an inside zone blocking play to the left. This is different from their usual power blocking run scheme.


Notice the entire Oline flow to the left. There is no pulling of any Olineman. They are not blocking straight ahead.


Once Gore sees daylight, it's one cut and go. The hole here is at Boone's inside shoulder.


Gore for +5.


2nd Down & 5
Notice the odd alignment of the Oline. Staley playing TE, VD playing LT. 49ers will pull Snyder and Miller to the right for a guard lead run. There is a mix up between ADavis and Staley as the blue defender is left unblocked. The blue defender's penetration will blow this play up in the backfield as he sticks Miller in the backfield and causes Hunter to have no where to run.


Hunter for no gain.


3rd & 5
49ers look to get a rub on the right side with Vance and VD. On the left is some odd looking combination with Boldin and Hunter.
WAS comes with cover2 zone.


Kap first looks to his right. As VD and Vance criss cross, no pick is set because it's not man coverage. On the left, Hunter has yet to turn around for a pass while Boldin has.


Kap looks towards the middle and sees nothing. Hunter still hasn't turned around. I think the left side is some sort of combination where Hunter is looking to block if Boldin is targeted. Hunter is careful not to initiate contact with the DB as it would be offensive pass interference.


Kap may have took too long to red light the rub concept on the right side. Boldin may have been targeted and had Hunter there to block.


Scramble for +2 yards. Bring in the FG unit.
As you mentioned, that is a weird combo by boldin and hunter. I don't know what combo has receivers within a yard of each other. I wondering if someone missed a call and perhaps hunter was suppose to run a corner therefore making it a smash like concept.
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th1408 with all your film study will the new receivers improve the passing game or does Roman need to call plays better in the Red zone?
Originally posted by GORO:
th1408 with all your film study will the new receivers improve the passing game or does Roman need to call plays better in the Red zone?

I could probably provide a better answer once all the red zone opportunities are complete, and especially once Crabs comes back (Rams game). So far, there are various points of failure ranging from QB play, Oline play, playcalling, and just good defense. All the different sets of downs that resulted in short FGs or turnovers could be attributed to any combination of the factors mentioned. Sorry I couldn't give you a more specific answer. We should know more once all the missed RZ opportunities are shown.