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Why the 49ers offensive will experience an evolution this season

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  • thl408
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Originally posted by pete98146:
Originally posted by NCommand:
This is it for me as well. Game plan and attack weaknesses...hell, exploit them until they can prove they can stop you and for the love of God, STICK to it if it's clearly working and a defense is on their heals. We have the personnel to do anything we want and to shift on the fly. Look how many pro-bowlers, all-pro's we have now (or very close to it) on offense: Staley, Davis, Iupati, Boone, Crabtree, Boldin, Johnson, Davis, Gore, Miller, etc. There are absolutely no excuses to be able to attack and exploit a defenses weaknesses and adjust in-game to what defenses are doing successfully against us. CK himself is an X-factor bonus (running and ad lib passing). We have got to spend more time on proper game planning and in-game adjustments and execution to the point it becomes automatic.

Completely agree! But history shows that we can't be overly reliant on "Bo-based" football. Yes it works well against the mediocre and the crappy teams. They know it's coming but still can't stop it. But it's dangerous technique because it can lull you into a false sense of security. But when we play the more physical teams like Seattle, Baltimore, Arizona and even the Rams they have the beefy defenses to nullify "Bo-Ball." Problem is that Robaugh become over reliant on "Bo-Ball" and don't have much of anything else on the menu.

A good analogy would be going to a restaurant and looking at the menu. The left side of the menu shows 50 different running plays and over on the left side of the menu, you have 15 pass patterns from which to choose. This MUST MUST MUST MUST MUST change this year. So it will be a paradigm shift for Robaugh.

Time to balance our offense and take the reigns off Kap. I fully expect to see a more diverse passing attack with the weapons we possess. Oddly absent are screen passes, slant patterns, the 15-20 yard reception over the middle etc. I know I'm preaching to the choir but when the game is on the line, we need to be able to dial up something other than the overused fade pattern.

Think of it like when a clothes dryer gets out of balance. Clunk clunk clunk, all the clothes get concentrated in one spot and the clothes don't dry. That clunk clunk clunk noise is over reliance on "Bo Ball." It's high time to open this offense up and present a BALANCED attack.

There must be balance, I agree, but not in run/pass ratio. The balance must come in being able to run or pass with equal effectiveness. So that as a defense going against the 49ers, you have to study their run game and their passing game with equal time because both are dangerous. I think the SJ acquisition helps immensely towards achieving this.

You really think the 49er playbook has a 50/15 ratio of run/pass plays? Come on, man. I think you're exaggerating to make a point. I don't see that as a good analogy.

Jim has a certain philosophy that I don't see changing. The recent draft selections support this philosophy so that tells me Baalke is on board as well. Hyde in the second, MMartin in the 3rd, BThomas in the 3rd. That's high draft capital for areas not even considered a big weakness (Oline, RBs). Running the ball will be a foundation of this offense for as long as Jim is here. It has nothing to do with Roman. It has everything to do with Jim. I could be wrong, but I don't see Jim changing this philosophy.

I am assuming you are referring to screen passes to the RB. The 49ers do run screen passes to the RB, and they are absolutely horrible at it. So they stopped. They do run slant patterns, but just because it's ran doesn't mean it's going to be open for a completion. Perhaps you may not have seen the slants being run. Some get completed, most aren't even targeted. Notice teams don't complete many slants against the 49er defense. That overused fade pattern is our young QB taking the easy read and going to the 1on1 instead of the playside concept. Blame Kap for targeting the fade when there is a concept route combination being ran on the playside. It is always Kap's choice whether or not to target the fade because of how the 49ers align their formations.
Originally posted by thl408:
There must be balance, I agree, but not in run/pass ratio. The balance must come in being able to run or pass with equal effectiveness. So that as a defense going against the 49ers, you have to study their run game and their passing game with equal time because both are dangerous. I think the SJ acquisition helps immensely towards achieving this.

You really think the 49er playbook has a 50/15 ratio of run/pass plays? Come on, man. I think you're exaggerating to make a point. I don't see that as a good analogy.

Jim has a certain philosophy that I don't see changing. The recent draft selections support this philosophy so that tells me Baalke is on board as well. Hyde in the second, MMartin in the 3rd, BThomas in the 3rd. That's high draft capital for areas not even considered a big weakness (Oline, RBs). Running the ball will be a foundation of this offense for as long as Jim is here. It has nothing to do with Roman. It has everything to do with Jim. I could be wrong, but I don't see Jim changing this philosophy.

I am assuming you are referring to screen passes to the RB. The 49ers do run screen passes to the RB, and they are absolutely horrible at it. So they stopped. They do run slant patterns, but just because it's ran doesn't mean it's going to be open for a completion. Perhaps you may not have seen the slants being run. Some get completed, most aren't even targeted. Notice teams don't complete many slants against the 49er defense. That overused fade pattern is our young QB taking the easy read and going to the 1on1 instead of the playside concept. Blame Kap for targeting the fade when there is a concept route combination being ran on the playside. It is always Kap's choice whether or not to target the fade because of how the 49ers align their formations.

My hope is that when kaep starts working the concept side more this leads to a high completion % which in turn increases the overall effectiveness of the pass game. We already get a top 10 ypa, if you can get that comp% nearing 63-65, all bets are off and this offense will be damn near impossible to contain. As you mentioned, SJ is gonna really help in this area. I agree with thl, I want an offense that takes what the defense gives it and exploits given weaknesses. I just don't think the offense is as broke as certain podcasts let on. However that is just my opinion.

Now I'm WCO to the core, so I would love an offense that used the pass to set up the run. However, I think that the offense that harbaugh has installed can be explosive and put up a s**t ton of points but it is gonna require an improvement in the passing game. Now I maybe a kaep honk, But I think that is exactly what we are gonna see this season.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Jul 15, 2014 at 12:59 PM ]
Originally posted by Big_Daddy:
We have stars at just about every position on offense. The only way we experience an "evolution" is to scrap the b******t college approach and develop a pro-style NFL game.

We have heard that Roman/Harbaugh threw out stuff and started all over again. While this doesn't surprise me, I have no hope that this team can hit another gear until we hire someone from outside "Harbaugh's Pal's" for our offensive game planning. I'M LOOKING AT YOU BAALKE!!!

Seeing the Eagles under Chip Kelly is the model I want. Innovative, fun to watch, players love it, fast paced, blow teams out the water. Screw this conservative crap, all it gets us is NO RINGS!
Originally posted by Niners816:
I just don't think the offense is as broke as certain podcasts let on. However that is just my opinion.


It's not broke per se. But the more physical teams in the league have figured out how to contain the current version of our offense. Worse yet, when we lose our run game, we don't have much else to fall back on aside from Kaepernick running the ball.

We are all on the same page here. I'd say all of us realize that the offense needs to become more dynamic and balanced so if they stack the box, we can make them pay dearly with an adept passing game. We have SO MUCH more room to grow in the passing game it's almost comical.

On of the posters mentioned Chip Kelly. Why not experiment a bit? We have our speedster in Ellington. Let him stretch the field (something sorely lacking since Randy Moss days). Let's use a 4 receiver set and see what happens? Jim Harbaugh football? Hell no! But let's give it a whirl now and then.
4-receiver sets? I'm hoping we see some 3-receiver sets more often this year. 3 receivers with a tight end would be a change-up at this point and I would bet that we're going to see more of that this year.
  • thl408
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The touchdown to VD in the GB playoff game was a 4WR set + VD. Not going to see it often, but it does happen.
Originally posted by crake49:
4-receiver sets? I'm hoping we see some 3-receiver sets more often this year. 3 receivers with a tight end would be a change-up at this point and I would bet that we're going to see more of that this year.

I'm hoping to see a good deal of 3 WR sets. Not a radical shift in philosophy or anything like that, but I'm a firm believer in putting your best 11 on the field. Crab-Boldin-Johnson are without a doubt part of our best 11.
[ Edited by SofaKing on Jul 16, 2014 at 3:40 PM ]
Originally posted by Big_Daddy:
We have stars at just about every position on offense. The only way we experience an "evolution" is to scrap the b******t college approach and develop a pro-style NFL game.

We have heard that Roman/Harbaugh threw out stuff and started all over again. While this doesn't surprise me, I have no hope that this team can hit another gear until we hire someone from outside "Harbaugh's Pal's" for our offensive game planning. I'M LOOKING AT YOU BAALKE!!!

Seeing the Eagles under Chip Kelly is the model I want. Innovative, fun to watch, players love it, fast paced, blow teams out the water. Screw this conservative crap, all it gets us is NO RINGS!

This is the first season where we finally have the personnel to do what we want to do.
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Originally posted by crake49:
4-receiver sets? I'm hoping we see some 3-receiver sets more often this year. 3 receivers with a tight end would be a change-up at this point and I would bet that we're going to see more of that this year.

I'm hoping to see a good deal of 3 WR sets. Not a radical shift in philosophy or anything like that, but I'm a firm believer in putting your best 11 on the field. Crab-Boldin-Johnson are without a doubt part of our best 11.

And by 3 WR sets, I get the impression fans are actually talking about 3 wide receivers. We've run up to 5 receiver sets last year but that only included 1 WR, 2 TE's and 1 RB & 1FB split out wide.

Having 3 WR's with varying skill sets could be a huge problem for defenses going forward. Lik ethe podcast noted re: the RZ, VD is also basically a very very effective (wide receiver) split out wide; way more effective than Crabtree. So include him on the outside as a receiver as well.
Originally posted by thl408:
Running the ball will be a foundation of this offense for as long as Jim is here. It has nothing to do with Roman. It has everything to do with Jim. I could be wrong, but I don't see Jim changing this philosophy.

This. While I've never been in favor of this philsophy, it still can work and be enough to win a Superbowl even with a young developing, dynamic QB. Roman get's the #$%^& for the most part b/c he's the primary playcaller and how many calls is Harbaugh really going to shake off? Not many...we have certainly lacked in many areas from fast starts, proper game planning, flow, the chess match (1 play to set up another), improper use of personnel (or non-use), etc. so clearly, Roman has a ways to go as well before he gets talked about in the upper 1/3rd of the league. While I think a top notch OC can take just about any personnel group and make it work, this year should be MUCH easier for Roman up in the booth. He should, at this point, be able to call just about any play and watch it executed like a video game. His biggest challenge may be to find a way to get everyone involved and stay happy beyond the top 1-3 (Johnson, Ellington, Patton, Hyde, Lattimore, Hunter, James, McDonald, Carrier, etc.).

We have an all-star cast on offense now from top-to-bottom and now have the "license" to evolve, grow, adapt and shift-on-the-fly. Pretty exciting!
Originally posted by NCommand:
And by 3 WR sets, I get the impression fans are actually talking about 3 wide receivers. We've run up to 5 receiver sets last year but that only included 1 WR, 2 TE's and 1 RB & 1FB split out wide.

Having 3 WR's with varying skill sets could be a huge problem for defenses going forward. Lik ethe podcast noted re: the RZ, VD is also basically a very very effective (wide receiver) split out wide; way more effective than Crabtree. So include him on the outside as a receiver as well.

When speaking of 3 WRs, you are really speaking of 11 & 20 personnel. In the past, 11 personnel really didn't fit frank because it took away his lead FB and in 20 personnel, by definition you remove VD.

Concerning 11 personnel, the hope has to be Hyde/lat/hunter perform better w/o a lead than frank has.

As other have stated, 20 could be interesting, but I feel like the staff would use this package sparsely because them love themselves done VD.

Just my opinion, but I think we will see more 11 personnel than in the past. Perhaps a little gun action with some read option running incorporated.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Jul 17, 2014 at 9:28 AM ]

Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by NCommand:
And by 3 WR sets, I get the impression fans are actually talking about 3 wide receivers. We've run up to 5 receiver sets last year but that only included 1 WR, 2 TE's and 1 RB & 1FB split out wide.

Having 3 WR's with varying skill sets could be a huge problem for defenses going forward. Lik ethe podcast noted re: the RZ, VD is also basically a very very effective (wide receiver) split out wide; way more effective than Crabtree. So include him on the outside as a receiver as well.

When speaking of 3 WRs, you are really speaking of 11 & 20 personnel. In the past, 11 personnel really didn't fit frank because it took away his lead FB and in 20 personnel, by definition you remove VD.

Concerning 11 personnel, the hope has to be Hyde/lat/hunter perform better w/o a lead than frank has.

As other have stated, 20 could be interesting, but I feel like the staff would use this package sparsely because them love themselves done VD.

Just my opinion, but I think we will see more 11 personnel than in the past. Perhaps a little gun action with some read option running incorporated.

How sweet would this be? Except in the RZ where the analysis was we were less effective in 11. But between the 20's? Holy cow...what would be your favorite personnel in this set?
  • cciowa
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we were supposed to explode late in the season last year and now we have an " evolution" this year. i will reserve judgement till i see it happen.
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Originally posted by crake49:
4-receiver sets? I'm hoping we see some 3-receiver sets more often this year. 3 receivers with a tight end would be a change-up at this point and I would bet that we're going to see more of that this year.

I'm hoping to see a good deal of 3 WR sets. Not a radical shift in philosophy or anything like that, but I'm a firm believer in putting your best 11 on the field. Crab-Boldin-Johnson are without a doubt part of our best 11.

Those three wide outs with V.Davis in tight has got to be a powerful set because Davis is a good run blocker as well as a vertical threat. I'm very excited to see a 100% healthy Crabtree along with SJ and Boldin the beast out there together. And, wouldn't it be nice if Patton and Ellington perform well enough to where they have to be on the field for some percentage of plays as well. There seems to be a lot to look forward to this year. And, I always forget about Lloyd. I haven't been a big believer in him, but evidently he was tearing it up on OTA's. I don't even know if there is space for him on this team.
Originally posted by NCommand:
How sweet would this be? Except in the RZ where the analysis was we were less effective in 11. But between the 20's? Holy cow...what would be your favorite personnel in this set?

Honestly my grouping would be boldin, crabs and SJ at WRs. I really do think they are interchangeable between the WR postion. But I would split SJ out wide and let him do his thing, I would put boldin in the slot and crabs at the Z. VD at TE and I would go with Hyde at back.

I really like the thoughts of a gun attack incorporating the read option run game. On this case kaep keeps the backside honest and it lets Hyde bang away on a little looser front.

In the pass game I like isolating SJ and having Vd, crabs and boldin on the concept side in either a bunch or y-trip look. This way if SJ is killing it would require safety help and that would help the concept side. If it vice versa and the defense needs to roll coverage to concept side then SJ is truely isolated and that had been a win for him this far in his career. The amount of options is really staggering this year. I hope injuries stat away because this offense could be on the verge of exploding.
Originally posted by cciowa:
we were supposed to explode late in the season last year and now we have an " evolution" this year. i will reserve judgement till i see it happen.

We did see a drastic increase in production when crabs returned. We went from 308 ypg to almost 360 ypg and this was during a stretch in which we played every team in divison and were basically playing for our playoff lives. That 360 ypg number is knocking on the top 10 level for a nfl offense.

I think breaking in to the top 10 is well with in this offenses grasp.
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