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Why the 49ers offensive will experience an evolution this season

yup, time to take the reins off kap, no point in havin a thoroughbred if we ain't gonna turn him loose
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Well thank you, I think our biggest way to slow down the Seattle rush is with an effective run game between the G and T. Seattle's ends like to explode upfield by attacking the Tackles outside shoulder with speed rushes. This makes it much harder to move Kap out of the pocket because, if you don't execute it perfectly, you're gonna get Kap's head taken off.



Here, notice how wide Seattle sets it's edge. This is a 4-3 "under" defense which Pete Carrol used a lot at USC, where the strong side LB will come up on the LOS outside the TE and the weakside DE slides outside the T. This creates a 5 man front while still keeping your pass coverage LB's on the field. It's supposed to give the wide edge run stopping abilities of the 3-4 while maintaining the interior run stopping of the 4-3 and keeping your better coverage backers on the field.

Because they have such a wide edge, it makes it really difficult to get a QB out of the pocket to the QB's right side. The QB would have to roll left and half the field is taken away as viable attacking zones for the offense.



You see how wide these guys go. The DE is attacking the outside edge while the backer is dropping out into the flat/QB contain



The three interior guys try and bull rush to collapse the pocket while the DE on the weakside takes a wide rush to get by the T. If Kap tries to roll out right he's creamed. If he tries to take off left he's having to try and accelerate away from a DE with a full head of steam already into a LB who's in flat coverage. The best way to slow down this edge rush is with runs inside the DE to force him to play a 2 gap role.

Johnny, in the first photo, what would the Seattle formation look like if McDonald lined up on the wide side of the field?

Also the way the play developed, it looked like, the a good option would be to for Kap to take off to the weak side in the general area you are targeting. The routes could be managed to move 54 53 and 51 out of that area, I think, even more than the play did.

So, I think you are saying that our run game got blown up because of personnel matchups and no extreme or gregarious strategy from the second level of the seattle D. Is that accurate? It seems risky to run pass plays that require longer drops in that environment.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
Well thank you, I think our biggest way to slow down the Seattle rush is with an effective run game between the G and T. Seattle's ends like to explode upfield by attacking the Tackles outside shoulder with speed rushes. This makes it much harder to move Kap out of the pocket because, if you don't execute it perfectly, you're gonna get Kap's head taken off.



Here, notice how wide Seattle sets it's edge. This is a 4-3 "under" defense which Pete Carrol used a lot at USC, where the strong side LB will come up on the LOS outside the TE and the weakside DE slides outside the T. This creates a 5 man front while still keeping your pass coverage LB's on the field. It's supposed to give the wide edge run stopping abilities of the 3-4 while maintaining the interior run stopping of the 4-3 and keeping your better coverage backers on the field.

Because they have such a wide edge, it makes it really difficult to get a QB out of the pocket to the QB's right side. The QB would have to roll left and half the field is taken away as viable attacking zones for the offense.



You see how wide these guys go. The DE is attacking the outside edge while the backer is dropping out into the flat/QB contain



The three interior guys try and bull rush to collapse the pocket while the DE on the weakside takes a wide rush to get by the T. If Kap tries to roll out right he's creamed. If he tries to take off left he's having to try and accelerate away from a DE with a full head of steam already into a LB who's in flat coverage. The best way to slow down this edge rush is with runs inside the DE to force him to play a 2 gap role.

Johnny, in the first photo, what would the Seattle formation look like if McDonald lined up on the wide side of the field?

Also the way the play developed, it looked like, the a good option would be to for Kap to take off to the weak side in the general area you are targeting. The routes could be managed to move 54 53 and 51 out of that area, I think, even more than the play did.

So, I think you are saying that our run game got blown up because of personnel matchups and no extreme or gregarious strategy from the second level of the seattle D. Is that accurate? It seems risky to run pass plays that require longer drops in that environment.
Well, if Kap takes off to his right - the DE has the edge on Davis - So, as fast as Kap is, I think he's gonna be caught. If he takes off to his left, there's a LB in the flat/contain role there. Seattle was playing to keep Kap from escaping outside the pocket - that's part of why he took off running up the middle so much in that game. And yeah, personnel matchups were part of it - I think it was 50/50 personnel matchups and lack of execution.
I haven't read thru the entire thread so if this point has been discussed, I apologize. But IMHO, the one limiting factor that I fear the most is: Jim Harbaugh. Here's why. Our defense will take it's lumps at least the first half of the season due to:

1. No Bowman until the midway point.
2. Aldon being suspended
3. New secondary.

My guess is that will give up at least 7 more points per game than last season as a result. It will be our offense's responsibility to make up those 7 points if we expect to win ball games. So I think Harbaugh knows that he'll have to take Bo Schembechler football and throw it in the garbage can. We can no longer expect to win ball games by kicking field goals and winning the time of possession/field position battle. We'll need to score points.

Back to "Bo-based" football. We simply need to get rid of the over reliance on the fullback led runs between the tackles and replace those with a nice blend of multi-receiver pass patterns (much to the chagrin of Harbaugh) because we all know the definition of insanity which is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

But we have no choice. Our offense MUST carry the torch this year if we are to succeed.
[ Edited by pete98146 on Jul 14, 2014 at 4:20 PM ]
Originally posted by pete98146:
I haven't read thru the entire thread so if this point has been discussed, I apologize. But IMHO, the one limiting factor that I fear the most is: Jim Harbaugh. Here's why. Our defense will take it's lumps at least the first half of the season due to:

1. No Bowman until the midway point.
2. Aldon being suspended
3. New secondary.

My guess is that will give up at least 7 more points per game than last season as a result. It will be our offense's responsibility to make up those 7 points if we expect to win ball games. So I think Harbaugh knows that he'll have to take Bo Schembechler football and throw it in the garbage can. We can no longer expect to win ball games by kicking field goals and winning the time of possession/field position battle. We'll need to score points.

Back to "Bo-based" football. We simply need to get rid of the over reliance on the fullback led runs between the tackles and replace those with a nice blend of multi-receiver pass patterns (much to the chagrin of Harbaugh) because we all know the definition of insanity which is "doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

But we have no choice. Our offense MUST carry the torch this year if we are to succeed.

I think that's a bit dramatic. Wilhoit played very well in place of Willis and Skuta and Lemonman played very well in place of Aldon last season. I do not expect any drop off in defensive performance.

I think we need more from the offense if we want to take that next step toward winning a SB, but again I don't think our D misses much more than a 1/2 step without 99 and 53.
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by jonnydel:
Well thank you, I think our biggest way to slow down the Seattle rush is with an effective run game between the G and T. Seattle's ends like to explode upfield by attacking the Tackles outside shoulder with speed rushes. This makes it much harder to move Kap out of the pocket because, if you don't execute it perfectly, you're gonna get Kap's head taken off.



Here, notice how wide Seattle sets it's edge. This is a 4-3 "under" defense which Pete Carrol used a lot at USC, where the strong side LB will come up on the LOS outside the TE and the weakside DE slides outside the T. This creates a 5 man front while still keeping your pass coverage LB's on the field. It's supposed to give the wide edge run stopping abilities of the 3-4 while maintaining the interior run stopping of the 4-3 and keeping your better coverage backers on the field.

Because they have such a wide edge, it makes it really difficult to get a QB out of the pocket to the QB's right side. The QB would have to roll left and half the field is taken away as viable attacking zones for the offense.



You see how wide these guys go. The DE is attacking the outside edge while the backer is dropping out into the flat/QB contain



The three interior guys try and bull rush to collapse the pocket while the DE on the weakside takes a wide rush to get by the T. If Kap tries to roll out right he's creamed. If he tries to take off left he's having to try and accelerate away from a DE with a full head of steam already into a LB who's in flat coverage. The best way to slow down this edge rush is with runs inside the DE to force him to play a 2 gap role.

goodwin getting pushed up right to the QB.
To me, it's not about passing more or running more, it's about doing what the defense can't stop. If the opposing defense has a poor run stopping front7, then go Bo-based football and pound the rock. They have a potentially excellent stable of RBs in Gore/Latt/Hyde with one of the best blocking fullbacks in the game. That's a strength and it would be a shame if they got pass happy in the name of 'opening up the offense'. I hope that SJ's acquisition was so that they could pass more effectively, not necessarily pass more.
Originally posted by Giedi:
goodwin getting pushed up right to the QB.

If you've watched any highlights of Marcus Martin, you know that this is not likely to happen. I've seen footage of two guys trying to push him back unsuccessfully. Martin is incredibly strong.
Originally posted by WINiner:
I think that's a bit dramatic. Wilhoit played very well in place of Willis and Skuta and Lemonman played very well in place of Aldon last season. I do not expect any drop off in defensive performance.

I think we need more from the offense if we want to take that next step toward winning a SB, but again I don't think our D misses much more than a 1/2 step without 99 and 53.

Hey I hope you are right, but I worry. It's going to take some time for our secondary to mesh. I'd be very surprised if we don't take some lumps as the players get used to playing as a unit.

Just think out offense needs to pick up the slack if our D does slip a bit.
Originally posted by thl408:
To me, it's not about passing more or running more, it's about doing what the defense can't stop. If the opposing defense has a poor run stopping front7, then go Bo-based football and pound the rock. They have a potentially excellent stable of RBs in Gore/Latt/Hyde with one of the best blocking fullbacks in the game. That's a strength and it would be a shame if they got pass happy in the name of 'opening up the offense'. I hope that SJ's acquisition was so that they could pass more effectively, not necessarily pass more.

This....while I admit I get wrapped up in pass/rush ratio, I feel if you take the advice of thl you are gonna be somewhat close to a balanced ratio based on the weaknesses of defenses across the league. It's just my opinion but anything approaching a 40/60 split either way is forcing one side and not taking advantage of opposing defenses.
I'll be surprised if the passing game isn't more effective this year. More receiving options, another year in the system for Kaepernick and I expect to see better protection. And the thing is that if the passing game is more effective, it will make the running game better. I can't imagine Harbaugh ever going 60-40 either way.
Originally posted by crake49:
I'll be surprised if the passing game isn't more effective this year. More receiving options, another year in the system for Kaepernick and I expect to see better protection. And the thing is that if the passing game is more effective, it will make the running game better. I can't imagine Harbaugh ever going 60-40 either way.

That 40/60 ratio was more of a general offensive statement not necessarily referring to our offense.

That 40/60 ratio for me kinda goes back to when trestman took over in '95 and made us a 60+ % pass team. Even in the state of our run game was that year, I just feel being that exaggerated either way is not a good thing. Admittedly tho, I do get too wrapped up in ratios but I feel they give a good clue into how you are calling games.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Jul 14, 2014 at 5:20 PM ]
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Great thread!

I hope your right and I envision a lot of what you said...

However, I doubt very much that Kaep will run more than he did during last season. There's too much riding on his health. The number 1 reason we will see an improvement this year will be his ability to get to the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th reads. The FO seems to prioritize this with the people and coaches they're bringing in.

Realistically, I see a slight improvement in completion % and ypa this year, with approx. 3800 yds passing and 27 TDs. Add in another 500 yds rushing and 5 TDs and you're looking at a serious All-Pro season... cough... De-escalators...

I agree that Gore will have a reduced role, but pass protection remains the primary reason he still will be used more than some of us would like. Lattimore / Hyde would have to demonstrate adequate pass protection to see the field. LMJ only makes the team if we can't get away from him as our returner. Hunter still remains our #2 until proven otherwise. I will say that I don't see a top 3 rushing attack because of an improved passing attack and a less imposing defense. We won't have the luxury of grinding out wins like we've become accustomed to with Bowman and Smith out, and J. Smith getting older. We'll still have a good unit, but it'll slip a few notches.

I agree with the part about Kap not running more during the season. In the playoffs, it's do or die. If Kap were to get hurt in the playoffs, we're screwed. But in the playoffs, you simply have to take that risk because if you don't, the offense doesn't move as well and we may be screwed anyway. The same philosophy does not apply in the regular season. We can "afford" to lose a game or two by not allowing Kap to run if it ensures his health.
Originally posted by thl408:
To me, it's not about passing more or running more, it's about doing what the defense can't stop. If the opposing defense has a poor run stopping front7, then go Bo-based football and pound the rock. They have a potentially excellent stable of RBs in Gore/Latt/Hyde with one of the best blocking fullbacks in the game. That's a strength and it would be a shame if they got pass happy in the name of 'opening up the offense'. I hope that SJ's acquisition was so that they could pass more effectively, not necessarily pass more.

This is it for me as well. Game plan and attack weaknesses...hell, exploit them until they can prove they can stop you and for the love of God, STICK to it if it's clearly working and a defense is on their heals. We have the personnel to do anything we want and to shift on the fly. Look how many pro-bowlers, all-pro's we have now (or very close to it) on offense: Staley, Davis, Iupati, Boone, Crabtree, Boldin, Johnson, Davis, Gore, Miller, etc. There are absolutely no excuses to be able to attack and exploit a defenses weaknesses and adjust in-game to what defenses are doing successfully against us. CK himself is an X-factor bonus (running and ad lib passing). We have got to spend more time on proper game planning and in-game adjustments and execution to the point it becomes automatic.
  • Giedi
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Originally posted by crake49:
Originally posted by Giedi:
goodwin getting pushed up right to the QB.

If you've watched any highlights of Marcus Martin, you know that this is not likely to happen. I've seen footage of two guys trying to push him back unsuccessfully. Martin is incredibly strong.

I think that's why the Steelers were so dominant for a long time. They had a great center and great runners to take advantage of that powerful blocking center. In my opinion, the WCO relies more on great guards in the run game, than great centers. The transition from an Alex type of short passing game and dump offs, to more of a Terry Bradshaw offense with Kaepernick will be complete with Martin beating out Kilgore for the center spot.