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2014 outlook at wide reciever. (Guys not named Crabtree and Boldin)

OK. I know that many people have projected our largest needs to be corner and wideout. I think somehow we were supposed to make a splash and after the 2nd day of the draft this got me thinking about how I think we've all been misled by the media. This could be about alot of positions becaues this fact is true about our team. OUR ROSTER IS BASICALLY SET. I mean seriously. Is anyone going to come in and suplant Crabtree and Boldin at wideout? It will be a pleasant suprise if Kilgore is bested at center. The only reason we are talking linebacker is because Bowman is currently hurt. The DB position is a "concern" but hardly one we haven't addressed but I will save that for other threads. We can find corners in the late rounds.

Back to the wideouts. Let's face it. We have a VERY VERY strong 1-2 punch at wide receiver. Yes we want that third guy to stretch the field BUT!! I think we keep forgetting two things.

FIRST, and most important, is how dangerous we are out of a tow TE set. Davis is the the third guy who can stretch the field deep. To be honest if I was Roman I'd be working very hard to start using McDonald more as an underneath route runner who can expose who ever is left to cover him after you get Davis Deep, put a big dude on Boldin, and find a guy to hang with Crabs. Really if Kaep continues to improve his route progressions we can start carving teams up with the talent we have.

SECOND, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FINDING OUR #3 option at wide reciever. Crabtree and Boldin are locks to start and they will give teams fits. Let's look at what we have. If we want to spread the field we can do it. Also we have basically admitted we suck at scouting recievers and filled the gaps with FA.

1-Baldwin, Jon,WR 6-4, 230, 24, 4 yrs (Clearly this is Boldin's back up if we keep him on the team.) But maybe we go with a bruising set.
2-Jacobs, Chuck,WR, 6-0,178, 23, 1 yrs. (I have no idea. Practice body?)
3-Johnson, StevieWR, 6-2, 207, 27, 7yrs (This kid was the real deal fot three straight years. If the coaches can get him, I mean honestly if he plays to his potential he has already shown was there a better option in the draft?)
4-Lloyd, Brandon, WR, 6-0 200, 32, 11 yrs (OMG, I mean sure we remember the duck. But this guy is competing with Stevie Johnson for PT. And he will be matched up against weaker corners and can make catches others can't. He's a good red zone threat, and though slow does force you to cover him deep given his ability to compete for the ball.
5-Osgood, Kassim, WR, 6-5, 220, 33 12 (ST Ace. But can contribute in the passing game. I mean as the 4th wideout he presents and interesting option for teams who don't have corners to cover a 6-5 dude.
6-Patton, Quinton, WR6-0, 204, 23, 2 yrs. (This kid has shown flashes but was hurt. I think he will make a serious press to be the #3 wideout.)
7- Reed, David, WR6-0, 190, 27, 5yrs (Camp body)
8- Sampson, DeMarco, WR, 6-2, 204, 28 2yrs (Camp Body)
9-Wylie, Devon, WR, 5-9, 187, 25 3 (Practice squad punt returner?)

I mean seriously. It boggles the mind why we would waste a high pick on a wideout right now. We have 11 guys on the roster. It is unlikely we keep 7. Will we even keep 6?

Let's assume two things:

1- Jacobs, Reed, Sampson, Wylie, and Baldwin are not on the roster by the Dallas game. Baldwni is the only one in this group with a shot.

2-Crabtree and Boldin are locks to start. Osgood will make the team as a ST.

That leaves Patton, Lloyd, and Johnson. If we keep 6 there it is. I mean that is a heck of a 6 wideout set. Johnson is not Old and Patton is young. All three of tgese players have a huge upside. Only Lloyd and Johnson need to learn the offense. Really the only question is can Roman and Morton can get something done with the guys we have. There is talent on the depth chart behind Crabs and Boldin. We just don't get the most out of it.

To be honest if we really want to make an upgrade at the wideout position we need to invest in a replacement for Johnny Morton. We never seem to get the most out of this group. Especially our younger guys.
I would almost say we have a 1-2-3 punch Johnsons numbers were mainly down last season due to injuries, and when it comes to a player that can really help against Seattles cheating secondary Stevie has had more success then Crabtree and Boldin against Sherman.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
I would almost say we have a 1-2-3 punch Johnsons numbers were mainly down last season due to injuries, and when it comes to a player that can really help against Seattles cheating secondary Stevie has had more success then Crabtree and Boldin against Sherman.


Agreed. I absolutely love the addition of Bruce Ellington. I think this kid can play big time football. He was a standout in a high powered offense in the SEC and produced and stepped up in big games vs. big competition. I think he may end up thriving as the #3. He can certainly take the top off of a defense. Especially when you consider that he shouldn't have to deal with a larger corner jamming him at the line much.
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 3,799
Disagree that the coaching staff/front-office is incompetent in finding and devdloping WRs. First of all Kyle Williams was developing nicely until the injury. Manningham had great rapport with Colin before the injury. They were able to utilize an aging and diminished Moss. They were able to find and develop Patton, who I think shown flashes of talent last year. I understand how a first round bust like AJ Jenkins can skew someone's thinking into the front office and coaching staff is incompetent - but I think it was more injury, lack of draft capital invested in the position, a developing QB, and a run first scheme, that led to that impression.
Coaching vs Receivers - It isn't the receivers have a lack of talent to get open - it is the passing scheme that blows. Look at NE - little physical talent, great schemes = decent numbers (of course, a QB that can read the scheme as well)

I have said this in MANY posts, so will keep it short. Look at the route combinations and the arching routes - simple, soft scheme it is easy for DBs to stay with. Almost ZERO double moves or break-back routes.

REGARDLESS, I still believe we are missing the big bodied deep threat we need to beat up on a guy like Sherman. Evans, Benjamin, and Bryant in this draft were the type I'd look for to diversify our receiver type.
Originally posted by HearstFan:
Coaching vs Receivers - It isn't the receivers have a lack of talent to get open - it is the passing scheme that blows. Look at NE - little physical talent, great schemes = decent numbers (of course, a QB that can read the scheme as well)

I have said this in MANY posts, so will keep it short. Look at the route combinations and the arching routes - simple, soft scheme it is easy for DBs to stay with. Almost ZERO double moves or break-back routes.

REGARDLESS, I still believe we are missing the big bodied deep threat we need to beat up on a guy like Sherman. Evans, Benjamin, and Bryant in this draft were the type I'd look for to diversify our receiver type.

Agreed. I wonder if they have long term plans for Baldwin.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Disagree that the coaching staff/front-office is incompetent in finding and devdloping WRs. First of all Kyle Williams was developing nicely until the injury. Manningham had great rapport with Colin before the injury. They were able to utilize an aging and diminished Moss. They were able to find and develop Patton, who I think shown flashes of talent last year. I understand how a first round bust like AJ Jenkins can skew someone's thinking into the front office and coaching staff is incompetent - but I think it was more injury, lack of draft capital invested in the position, a developing QB, and a run first scheme, that led to that impression.

I agree with this strongly. I'm not a big fan of Morton but he also hasn't had much to work with. As far as this popular myth that the 49ers can't draft wide receivers, I find that completely unsubstantiated. If you accept that every single G.M. in the NFL who survives long enough to make more than a handful of 1st round picks will have a bust sooner or later, you tend to worry less about A.J. Jenkins as a reflection of the 49ers struggling with drafting receivers and more as an expected cost of doing business. The best personnel men in the league are lucky to hit on 50% of their picks. Guys like Ozzie Newsome have entire drafts that are filled with nothing but busts and mediocre players.

I don't think Baalke has had enough of a track record with WR's, prior to Jenkins he had Ronald Johnson who was drafted as a nod to Morton, and Kyle Williams, a 6th round pick which is typically a longshot no matter how you look at it. Since then, the 49ers have added Patton and Ellington. Patton had some injury problems as a rookie but looked promising at the end of the season, made a few nice catches and I hope to see him more involved with the offense. Ellington is another nice prospect that a lot of people like a lot. Only time will tell how both of these guys turn out but I don't have any expectation that they'll be anything less than successful.

I think Baalke took the smart approach by acquiring Johnson. He's ready to go, right out of the box, has been successful in the NFL and now the 49ers get to put him on the field with guys like Boldin, Crabtree and V.D. The 49ers WR corps is the strongest since back in the mid 90 to late 90's and I can't wait to see what sort of performances these guys can put together.
Originally posted by VA49er:
OK. I know that many people have projected our largest needs to be corner and wideout. I think somehow we were supposed to make a splash and after the 2nd day of the draft this got me thinking about how I think we've all been misled by the media. This could be about alot of positions becaues this fact is true about our team. OUR ROSTER IS BASICALLY SET. I mean seriously. Is anyone going to come in and suplant Crabtree and Boldin at wideout? It will be a pleasant suprise if Kilgore is bested at center. The only reason we are talking linebacker is because Bowman is currently hurt. The DB position is a "concern" but hardly one we haven't addressed but I will save that for other threads. We can find corners in the late rounds.

Back to the wideouts. Let's face it. We have a VERY VERY strong 1-2 punch at wide receiver. Yes we want that third guy to stretch the field BUT!! I think we keep forgetting two things.

FIRST, and most important, is how dangerous we are out of a tow TE set. Davis is the the third guy who can stretch the field deep. To be honest if I was Roman I'd be working very hard to start using McDonald more as an underneath route runner who can expose who ever is left to cover him after you get Davis Deep, put a big dude on Boldin, and find a guy to hang with Crabs. Really if Kaep continues to improve his route progressions we can start carving teams up with the talent we have.

SECOND, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FINDING OUR #3 option at wide reciever. Crabtree and Boldin are locks to start and they will give teams fits. Let's look at what we have. If we want to spread the field we can do it. Also we have basically admitted we suck at scouting recievers and filled the gaps with FA.

1-Baldwin, Jon,WR 6-4, 230, 24, 4 yrs (Clearly this is Boldin's back up if we keep him on the team.) But maybe we go with a bruising set.
2-Jacobs, Chuck,WR, 6-0,178, 23, 1 yrs. (I have no idea. Practice body?)
3-Johnson, StevieWR, 6-2, 207, 27, 7yrs (This kid was the real deal fot three straight years. If the coaches can get him, I mean honestly if he plays to his potential he has already shown was there a better option in the draft?)
4-Lloyd, Brandon, WR, 6-0 200, 32, 11 yrs (OMG, I mean sure we remember the duck. But this guy is competing with Stevie Johnson for PT. And he will be matched up against weaker corners and can make catches others can't. He's a good red zone threat, and though slow does force you to cover him deep given his ability to compete for the ball.
5-Osgood, Kassim, WR, 6-5, 220, 33 12 (ST Ace. But can contribute in the passing game. I mean as the 4th wideout he presents and interesting option for teams who don't have corners to cover a 6-5 dude.
6-Patton, Quinton, WR6-0, 204, 23, 2 yrs. (This kid has shown flashes but was hurt. I think he will make a serious press to be the #3 wideout.)
7- Reed, David, WR6-0, 190, 27, 5yrs (Camp body)
8- Sampson, DeMarco, WR, 6-2, 204, 28 2yrs (Camp Body)
9-Wylie, Devon, WR, 5-9, 187, 25 3 (Practice squad punt returner?)

I mean seriously. It boggles the mind why we would waste a high pick on a wideout right now. We have 11 guys on the roster. It is unlikely we keep 7. Will we even keep 6?

Let's assume two things:

1- Jacobs, Reed, Sampson, Wylie, and Baldwin are not on the roster by the Dallas game. Baldwni is the only one in this group with a shot.

2-Crabtree and Boldin are locks to start. Osgood will make the team as a ST.

That leaves Patton, Lloyd, and Johnson. If we keep 6 there it is. I mean that is a heck of a 6 wideout set. Johnson is not Old and Patton is young. All three of tgese players have a huge upside. Only Lloyd and Johnson need to learn the offense. Really the only question is can Roman and Morton can get something done with the guys we have. There is talent on the depth chart behind Crabs and Boldin. We just don't get the most out of it.

To be honest if we really want to make an upgrade at the wideout position we need to invest in a replacement for Johnny Morton. We never seem to get the most out of this group. Especially our younger guys.


I think you are WAY under valuing Stevie Johnson.


If Johnson shows up 100% healthy and if he shows consistency from the start! he's going to be putting a lot of pressure on Boldin and Crabtree to be be on the field.

If Johnson develops some kind of chemistry with Kaepernick and relieves the pressure of him (Kaepernick) feeling like he only has one safety valve (Crabtree) to go to, then honestly, I could see Crabtree really being put in a position he's never been in before and that's having someone putting major pressure on him to perform.

Johnson runs better routes than Crabtree and has much better speed and even though his hands are nowhere near as good as Crabtree's, if he can be consistent and not have any bonehead drops, then he will add a dimension that the offense hasn't ever had.

It's going to be interesting to see how it all shakes out.
[ Edited by CWin4949 on May 11, 2014 at 8:23 AM ]
Originally posted by HearstFan:
Coaching vs Receivers - It isn't the receivers have a lack of talent to get open - it is the passing scheme that blows. Look at NE - little physical talent, great schemes = decent numbers (of course, a QB that can read the scheme as well)

I have said this in MANY posts, so will keep it short. Look at the route combinations and the arching routes - simple, soft scheme it is easy for DBs to stay with. Almost ZERO double moves or break-back routes.

REGARDLESS, I still believe we are missing the big bodied deep threat we need to beat up on a guy like Sherman. Evans, Benjamin, and Bryant in this draft were the type I'd look for to diversify our receiver type.

Do you realize the success rate that "big bodied" receivers have against Sherman versus smaller, quicker guys like T.Y Hilton? You're not going to "beat up" on Sherman. He's 6'3", 200, you're not going to "out-size" him or "out-jump" him, you don't beat a big CB by attacking his strengths, you beat them by attacking his weaknesses.

Stevie Johnson who is no small receiver himself at 6'2", 210, beat Sherman pretty good and did so with his quickness, repeatedly. When faced with big CB's, you beat them with speed and quickness, not wasting time trying to out-muscle them like Boldin did in the first game against Seattle last season. All a CB needs to do is re-direct, jam or hold-on to the receiver to affect the route.



This is how you beat Sherman.










Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by HearstFan:
Coaching vs Receivers - It isn't the receivers have a lack of talent to get open - it is the passing scheme that blows. Look at NE - little physical talent, great schemes = decent numbers (of course, a QB that can read the scheme as well)

I have said this in MANY posts, so will keep it short. Look at the route combinations and the arching routes - simple, soft scheme it is easy for DBs to stay with. Almost ZERO double moves or break-back routes.

REGARDLESS, I still believe we are missing the big bodied deep threat we need to beat up on a guy like Sherman. Evans, Benjamin, and Bryant in this draft were the type I'd look for to diversify our receiver type.

Do you realize the success rate that "big bodied" receivers have against Sherman versus smaller, quicker guys like T.Y Hilton? You're not going to "beat up" on Sherman. He's 6'3", 200, you're not going to "out-size" him or "out-jump" him, you don't beat a big CB by attacking his strengths, you beat them by attacking his weaknesses.

Stevie Johnson who is no small receiver himself at 6'2", 210, beat Sherman pretty good and did so with his quickness, repeatedly. When faced with big CB's, you beat them with speed and quickness, not wasting time trying to out-muscle them like Boldin did in the first game against Seattle last season. All a CB needs to do is re-direct, jam or hold-on to the receiver to affect the route.



This is how you beat Sherman.













We also have to STOP acting like we play Richard. Sherman every week and every play. Some guys act like Sherman is God or something, he's been proven to be beat MANY times by WRs that aren't Calvin. Johnson.

Another thing, the way you beat and DB and defensive backfield is to have WRs that can run great routes and Stevie Johnson is a great route runner, now we just need our QB to put the ball in the right spot.

You are absolutely correct, we don't need giant WRs that everyone seems to be so enamored with, if that's the case, why hasn't Baldwin even gotten a sniff of playing time?
Originally posted by CWin4949:
We also have to STOP acting like we play Richard. Sherman every week and every play. Some guys act like Sherman is God or something, he's been proven to be beat MANY times by WRs that aren't Calvin. Johnson.

Another thing, the way you beat and DB and defensive backfield is to have WRs that can run great routes and Stevie Johnson is a great route runner, now we just need our QB to put the ball in the right spot.

You are absolutely correct, we don't need giant WRs that everyone seems to be so enamored with, if that's the case, why hasn't Baldwin even gotten a sniff of playing time?

This too. For the majority of secondaries the 49ers will face, they're going to be chitting their pants at the prospect of having to cover Boldin, Crabtree, Johnson and V.D.
Originally posted by CWin4949:
I think you are WAY under valuing Stevie Johnson.


If Johnson shows up 100% healthy and if he shows consistency from the start! he's going to be putting a lot of pressure on Boldin and Crabtree to be be on the field.

If Johnson develops some kind of chemistry with Kaepernick and relieves the pressure of him (Kaepernick) feeling like he only has one safety valve (Crabtree) to go to, then honestly, I could see Crabtree really being put in a position he's never been in before and that's having someone putting major pressure on him to perform.

Johnson runs better routes than Crabtree and has much better speed and even though his hands are nowhere near as good as Crabtree's, if he can be consistent and not have any bonehead drops, then he will add a dimension that the offense hasn't ever had.

It's going to be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

Stevie Johnson on this team is going to be very dangerous. Getting him for a 4th is a ridiculous value for both teams involved. The addition of Johnson and Ellington really rounds out a very nice receiving core.
Depth Chart:
1. Boldin
2. Crabtree
3. Steve Johnson
4. Patton
5. Ellington (KR, PR, eventual #3 WR)
6. Jon Baldwin
Cuts: Osgood (re-sign if injuries), Jacobs (PS), Lloyd (re-sign in case of injuries),

That's a darn good WR group. Along with VD we have no excuse to not be in the ~top ten of passing teams in the league.

They will try to keep and develop Baldwin for the future. If he can extract his head from butt and work very hard he has starter upside potential. He took a big pay cut, and they usually try to work with those type of guys. He is almost as big as Kelvin Benjamin but is much faster and much better vertical (42") and broad jumps. Also more bench reps 20 vs. 13. If he has his head on straight should be great special teamer, with #1 WR upside.
Baldwin's Combine Results:
6 ft 4 in
228 lb
Arms: 34" !!!
Hands: 10 1/8"
40: 4.5
Vert: 42"
Broad: 10'8"
BP: 20 reps
[ Edited by maxsmart on May 22, 2014 at 11:25 PM ]
  • GEEK
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 17,164
Originally posted by maxsmart:
Depth Chart:
1. Boldin
2. Crabtree
3. Steve Johnson
4. Patton
5. Ellington (KR, PR, eventual #3 WR)
6. Jon Baldwin
Cuts: Osgood (re-sign if injuries), Jacobs (PS), Lloyd (re-sign in case of injuries),

That's a darn good WR group. Along with VD we have no excuse to not be in the ~top ten of passing teams in the league.

They will try to keep and develop Baldwin for the future. If he can extract his head from butt and work very hard he has starter upside potential. He took a big pay cut, and they usually try to work with those type of guys. He is almost as big as Kelvin Benjamin but is much faster and much better vertical (42") and broad jumps. Also more bench reps 20 vs. 13. If he has his head on straight should be great special teamer, with #1 WR upside.
Baldwin's Combine Results:
6 ft 4 in
228 lb
Arms: 34" !!!
Hands: 10 1/8"
40: 4.5
Vert: 42"
Broad: 10'8"
BP: 20 reps

The problem with Baldwin is that he doesn't play special teams. He has 1st round physical talent, but the mental ability isn't there yet. I rather see him over Osgood, but only he can expand his role on the team for ST units.

Otherwise, keep Osgood for 2014.
Agreed with GEEK. Baldwin has no ST Value, plus he sucks big time. Osgood at least will contribute on STs as an Ace, Gunner, Tackler, etc...

Lloyd also has no value, once Stevie was added, his fate was set IMO.