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OUR PASSING GAME---ANOTHER LOOK

Originally posted by crake49:
It only stands to reason that the more viable productive targets he has, the better the distribution will be as he becomes more comfortable with the system.

True but how many more does he need? Crabtree, Boldin, VD, Gore, Miller, Huner, James, Lattimore, McDonald, etc. And we're going to add 2-3 more? Agreed...time to spread the wealth HaRoman/CK! There are no more rookie-excuses or lack of "speed."
[ Edited by NCommand on Apr 4, 2014 at 12:12 PM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Oh for sure. I liked the game plan to attack Seattle on the edges with CK exposing them and also with big scrambles b/c of all the intermediate+ go-routes we run. Once CK got past the first wave (DL and the spy), he was off and running for huge gains. In short, we were stretching their defense out (and we had good blocking down field). This clearly, was by design. If they continued to rush their DE's hard (and they did), CK would side-step and be off and running.

It was that second half where I feel our game planning failed miserably, the RZ offense and esp. first down calls. Seattle adjusted and we didn't exploit them for it. Coaching, IMHO, has cost us 3 straight Superbowls. But that's another thread. LOL.

Hopefully, the short and outlet game will be the next wave of installments in this offense (fingers crossed). If we get Lattimore, Gore, Hunter and James heavily involved in the offense playing off our play action and intermediate+ "go route" designs, they are going to be impossible to stop for a defense. Why? 1) Good defenses already have to use a LB or S to "spy" CK. Now you have one less defender in coverage which means somebody is going to have, literally, nobody covering them. 2) We tend to run a ton of AR1 and 2's and primary reads where these routes alone "stretch the field" vertically a good 10-20 yards. This means there is a ton of space between the DL and first wave of receivers (an area we can exploit with RB/FB's and soft-zone TE's) and 3) Like any receiver, the more they get their hands on the ball, the better they'll get and RB's, by nature, are built to make at least the first guy miss and like with CK, if he gets past that first defender, he's off and running; couple THAT concept with our tremendous big-bodied downfield blockers and the defense will be forced to pick it's poison. If they do, we can destroy them again in the power running game with less men in the box on a simple audible at the LOS.

But this coaching staff has a lot to learn re: first down production and attacking obvious defensive weakness and also, adjusting to the defenses adjustments and attacking new areas. We fail at chess, not talent.

After all the film clips that have been posted, you still believe that we run an AR passing attack? Kap has options on the majority of the pass plays on who to throw to. It is up to him to choose where to throw, based on his reading of the coverage. AR plays are just sprinkled in here and there. ALL of the passing concepts that I have mentioned in the breakdowns rely on the QB reading the defense and making the proper throw based on what he thinks the defense is doing. It's not even close when comparing the number of AR pass plays versus plays that use real passing concepts. There are so many more plays where Kap needs to use his smarts to determine where to throw. Here are the passing concepts that I have mentioned in the film threads when showing 49er plays. I'll categorize them as to what they try to accomplish.

zone busting concepts (vertical stretch): smash, high-lo


zone busting concepts (horizontal stretch): all-curls, 4 verticals, curl flat, follow,

Zone busting concept (horizontal and vertical stretch): triangle concepts

man busting concepts: mesh (criss crossing routes), rub (bunch formations)


The 49ers utilize ALL of these concepts and the proof is on film. I'm sure there are more that I just don't recognize. It's time to put this notion that the 49ers run a predominantly AR passing attack to bed. This could be the thread to do it. Perhaps I'll breakdown some AR plays that the 49ers do run so we can see just how scarce they really are throughout the course of a game.

Predominant? I wouldn't say that...during an early span last year, I'd say yes, but as the season progressed, no. Do I still think many passing designs/calls dictate who the passes will go to, pre-snap? Naturally...b/c we're still going to that target no matter what the defense does pre-snap. This concept has been reinforced by both CK and Harbaugh. But I also believe more and more PS plays were being added throughout the year and many are grounded in your concept where CK must read the defense pre snap and determine his primary read based on the coverages he is seeing...the best matchup. Given neither of us have an iPlaybook yet (and I'm working on this...LOL), it's very hard to know if a play call is an AR1, AR2 or PS play where the passing game is dictacted by the defensive coverages just before the snap. Why? B/c more often than not, CK stays with his primary read. Granted the AR2's are easiest to see. Given that many of the designs you reference (zone busting and man busting concepts), even a standard WCO design, they can STILL be designed to get one AR the ball; like how we typically run go-routes to clear space for an underneath receiver or flood one side of the field to get isolation on the other (NFCCG INT). Are the other's "really" receiving options by design? Sometimes, yes, sometimes, no. High-low concepts, yes b/c that's an IF-THEN WCO design. In short, this is the most unique offense in the NFL and we really have no clear tendencies or ID to say, "This is who we are in the passing game." I would imagine next year, we'll see some additional waves of concepts added now that Harbaugh says they know who their personnel is....maybe put more in the hands/brain of CK as a true signal caller. I think and hope we're in the middle of a transition right now into a FT PS offense...whatever that offense is.

I only used the word predominant because you stated that, "We tend to run a ton of AR1 and 2's". I guess I misunderstood what "a ton" means. I thought it meant that you were implying the 49ers are predominantly using AR1/2 plays. After all, "a ton" sounds like a lot.

I'd like to think I can tell whether a play is AR1/AR2/PS. Just look at all the thumbnails of the passing plays that have been posted. I'm fairly certain I did that for the NO, SEA, TB, ATL, ARI, GB, and SEA games. That is a sneak peak into the 49er's passing playbook. We can go over what the 49ers are trying to do on any certain play you would like to discuss, and the discussion can be open to anyone that wants to take part. We can try to point out plays where you think there is an AR and we can see whether it truly was or not. Just do a forum search on 'analysis' and somewhere in those threads I list the thumbnails like this:



My claim is, Kap is the person to decide who the primary read is once he gets to the line of scrimmage and makes his pre-snap read. Remember that an AR play is one where the whole team knows who is getting the ball when the huddle breaks. An example of an AR play that everyone can understand is a screen pass to the running back. When the huddle breaks, everyone knows who is getting the ball and they will block, or run decoy routes, to benefit the AR receiver.

The concepts I listed above work to get someone open. That someone is determined by what the defense does. And what the defense does determines who Kap should throw to. If a defense is showing a certain tendency, then Kap can have a good idea of what will happen (who will be open). If not, then he needs to see post snap what the defense ends up doing. So no, the concepts I listed are not designed for an AR to get open because it is not an AR play.
  • buck
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Originally posted by Rathmanator:
Originally posted by Giedi:
In the year of 2012, the passing attempts were at 436 for the year vs 417 this year, which tells me the offense won't change a whole lot. We had Delanie, Moss, Manningham, and Crabs that year and still we're hovering round 420 passes per year. I agree that the offense should be more effective, specially in the red zone if we have more passing targets, but I think this will still be 51% pass and 49% run offense.

Instead of more passes, I'd like to see more of an even distribution of passes to the WR's. If we have Quan, Crabs, Patton, VD, Vance and a High round WR draft pick - I'd like 25% Quan, 25% Crabs, 25% VD, 10% gore, 5% Patton, 5% Vance, and 5% High round WR draft pick. In other words, if Kaepernick is correctly reading the defense, there shouldn't be a preferred receiver that gets more than 30% of all the catches during the season, ideally speaking.

We have a winner.

The objective should be to improve the passing game and by doing so improve the overall offensive.

If that can be done without increasing the numbers of passes thrown, I have no problem with that.

If we thrown more passes and the passing game improves, I have no problem with that.

In other words, the central question is NOT, at least in estimation, the number of passes thrown.

What I would like to see is the passing game become more productive.

Improving the passing game will not require or cause a deterioration of the running game.
[ Edited by buck on Apr 4, 2014 at 12:32 PM ]
So here is an example I found of what I consider an AR1 play.

Week 6
1Q 3rd&4
The 49ers run decoy clearing routes to give VD room to work his route. I guess it's possible that KW and Vance running the decoy routes could have been targeted with a pass, but I don't think so. I looked at the endzone camera and Kap seemed like he was just waiting for VD to get open. Against a team that plays mostly man coverage like ARI, it's easy to scheme guys open with decoy clearing routes.

This idea of scheming guys open when a defense continuously comes with man coverage was touched on in the ARI week 17 game's film breakdown thread. Even Joe Staley got a pass his way using the same idea of decoy clearing routes opening up room for the AR receiver to get a pass.



Originally posted by thl408:
I only used the word predominant because you stated that, "We tend to run a ton of AR1 and 2's". I guess I misunderstood what "a ton" means. I thought it meant that you were implying the 49ers are predominantly using AR1/2 plays. After all, "a ton" sounds like a lot.

I'd like to think I can tell whether a play is AR1/AR2/PS. Just look at all the thumbnails of the passing plays that have been posted. I'm fairly certain I did that for the NO, SEA, TB, ATL, ARI, GB, and SEA games. That is a sneak peak into the 49er's passing playbook. We can go over what the 49ers are trying to do on any certain play you would like to discuss, and the discussion can be open to anyone that wants to take part. We can try to point out plays where you think there is an AR and we can see whether it truly was or not.

My claim is, Kap is the person to decide who the primary read is once he gets to the line of scrimmage and makes his pre-snap read. Remember that an AR play is one where the whole team knows who is getting the ball when the huddle breaks. An example of an AR play that everyone can understand is a screen pass to the running back. When the huddle breaks, everyone knows who is getting the ball and they will block, or run decoy routes, to benefit the AR receiver.

The concepts I listed above work to get someone open. That someone is determined by what the defense does. And what the defense does determines who Kap should throw to. If a defense is showing a certain tendency, then Kap can have a good idea of what will happen (who will be open). If not, then he needs to see post snap what the defense ends up doing. So no, the concepts I listed are not designed for an AR to get open because it is not an AR play.

Oh, OK...I hear you. I s/h been more clear in that statement (I was speaking more collectively). And I'll be honest, once I started seeing more PS passing concepts you noted in still's and gif's and esp. once Crabtree came back, I hadn't focused as much on the designs or nearly as much as I did in the first half of the year.

So in short, many of the passing plays come down to a few types of designs?
1) PS - CK reads the defensive coverage and the design of the passing play is typically to get one or another receiver open, usually in the same quadrant. If the S drops down on Crabtree, pass to VD. If the S stays with VD, hit Crabtree.
2) AR1 - This is a predetermined "team passing concept" using decoys receivers to clear space for the AR. This is illustrated in your above still's and gif (thanks for that).
3) AR2 - Same concept but more physical in nature where the non-AR's physically block out defenders to clear space for the AR (like a WR screen); we see this mostly in the RZ.

Would you agree?
[ Edited by NCommand on Apr 4, 2014 at 1:22 PM ]
Originally posted by thl408:
I only used the word predominant because you stated that, "We tend to run a ton of AR1 and 2's". I guess I misunderstood what "a ton" means. I thought it meant that you were implying the 49ers are predominantly using AR1/2 plays. After all, "a ton" sounds like a lot.

I'd like to think I can tell whether a play is AR1/AR2/PS. Just look at all the thumbnails of the passing plays that have been posted. I'm fairly certain I did that for the NO, SEA, TB, ATL, ARI, GB, and SEA games. That is a sneak peak into the 49er's passing playbook. We can go over what the 49ers are trying to do on any certain play you would like to discuss, and the discussion can be open to anyone that wants to take part. We can try to point out plays where you think there is an AR and we can see whether it truly was or not. Just do a forum search on 'analysis' and somewhere in those threads I list the thumbnails like this:



My claim is, Kap is the person to decide who the primary read is once he gets to the line of scrimmage and makes his pre-snap read. Remember that an AR play is one where the whole team knows who is getting the ball when the huddle breaks. An example of an AR play that everyone can understand is a screen pass to the running back. When the huddle breaks, everyone knows who is getting the ball and they will block, or run decoy routes, to benefit the AR receiver.

The concepts I listed above work to get someone open. That someone is determined by what the defense does. And what the defense does determines who Kap should throw to. If a defense is showing a certain tendency, then Kap can have a good idea of what will happen (who will be open). If not, then he needs to see post snap what the defense ends up doing. So no, the concepts I listed are not designed for an AR to get open because it is not an AR play.

I could only listen to the NO(After the b******t call on Justin, I had little patience to rewatch the game )game so I'm really not recognizing play #1, but did he at least complete the fly pattern. Spot has always been one of my favorite WCO concepts and like you said with its vertical and horizontal aspects it should have got someone open. On the tape, did the spot concept work even tho he passed it up.

It's kinda funny, I just rewatched the opener from '94 and I kid you not the Niners must have run a variation of spot 8-9 times
[ Edited by Niners816 on Apr 4, 2014 at 1:25 PM ]
Originally posted by Niners816:
It's kinda funny, I just rewatched the opener from '94 and I kid you not the Niners must have run a variation of spot 8-9 times

From '94? God bless you!
Originally posted by NCommand:
From '94? God bless you!

Yea its still on youtube. I believe it's a member of this forum that posts them.

Look up "SFLA1994-JRTD127" on youtube search. You have to be pretty cryptic in the names so big brother NFL doesn't take them down
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
I only used the word predominant because you stated that, "We tend to run a ton of AR1 and 2's". I guess I misunderstood what "a ton" means. I thought it meant that you were implying the 49ers are predominantly using AR1/2 plays. After all, "a ton" sounds like a lot.

I'd like to think I can tell whether a play is AR1/AR2/PS. Just look at all the thumbnails of the passing plays that have been posted. I'm fairly certain I did that for the NO, SEA, TB, ATL, ARI, GB, and SEA games. That is a sneak peak into the 49er's passing playbook. We can go over what the 49ers are trying to do on any certain play you would like to discuss, and the discussion can be open to anyone that wants to take part. We can try to point out plays where you think there is an AR and we can see whether it truly was or not.

My claim is, Kap is the person to decide who the primary read is once he gets to the line of scrimmage and makes his pre-snap read. Remember that an AR play is one where the whole team knows who is getting the ball when the huddle breaks. An example of an AR play that everyone can understand is a screen pass to the running back. When the huddle breaks, everyone knows who is getting the ball and they will block, or run decoy routes, to benefit the AR receiver.

The concepts I listed above work to get someone open. That someone is determined by what the defense does. And what the defense does determines who Kap should throw to. If a defense is showing a certain tendency, then Kap can have a good idea of what will happen (who will be open). If not, then he needs to see post snap what the defense ends up doing. So no, the concepts I listed are not designed for an AR to get open because it is not an AR play.

Oh, OK...I hear you. I s/h been more clear in that statement (I was speaking more collectively). And I'll be honest, once I started seeing more PS passing concepts you noted in still's and gif's and esp. once Crabtree came back, I hadn't focused as much on the designs or nearly as much as I did in the first half of the year.

So in short, many of the passing plays come down to a few types of designs?
1) PS - CK reads the defensive coverage and the design of the passing play is typically to get one or another receiver open, usually in the same quadrant. If the S drops down on Crabtree, pass to VD. If the S stays with VD, hit Crabtree.
2) AR1 - This is a predetermined "team passing concept" using decoys receivers to clear space for the AR. This is illustrated in your above still's and gif (thanks for that).
3) AR2 - Same concept but more physical in nature where the non-AR's physically block out defenders to clear space for the AR (like a WR screen); we see this mostly in the RZ.

Would you agree?

100% I agree with your definitions above. The PS plays the 49ers run are usually coverage reads. This has been discussed here and there on this forum. Using your example in 1), Kap will focus on a certain defender (or two) and depending on what those defenders do, Kap will know what to do. So to further your definition, Kap doesn't know which WR will be open when the huddle breaks, but he will focus on a certain area of the field (you mentioned quadrant) where the route combination being ran will attempt to get someone open.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Niners816:
It's kinda funny, I just rewatched the opener from '94 and I kid you not the Niners must have run a variation of spot 8-9 times

From '94? God bless you!

Ah the Spot play. Check out play #1 (the yellow number in top right hand corner) from the thumbnails of the Saints game (post #122 of this thread).

edit:
Oh Niners816, you did recognize the play. Just read your post.
[ Edited by thl408 on Apr 4, 2014 at 1:41 PM ]
On 49ers: Will Harbaugh loosen up the offense next season?

http://www.sacbee.com/2014/04/03/6294845/on-49ers-will-harbaugh-loosen.html
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 10,055
Originally posted by awp8912:
On 49ers: Will Harbaugh loosen up the offense next season?

http://www.sacbee.com/2014/04/03/6294845/on-49ers-will-harbaugh-loosen.html

Thank you.
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
I only used the word predominant because you stated that, "We tend to run a ton of AR1 and 2's". I guess I misunderstood what "a ton" means. I thought it meant that you were implying the 49ers are predominantly using AR1/2 plays. After all, "a ton" sounds like a lot.

I'd like to think I can tell whether a play is AR1/AR2/PS. Just look at all the thumbnails of the passing plays that have been posted. I'm fairly certain I did that for the NO, SEA, TB, ATL, ARI, GB, and SEA games. That is a sneak peak into the 49er's passing playbook. We can go over what the 49ers are trying to do on any certain play you would like to discuss, and the discussion can be open to anyone that wants to take part. We can try to point out plays where you think there is an AR and we can see whether it truly was or not.

My claim is, Kap is the person to decide who the primary read is once he gets to the line of scrimmage and makes his pre-snap read. Remember that an AR play is one where the whole team knows who is getting the ball when the huddle breaks. An example of an AR play that everyone can understand is a screen pass to the running back. When the huddle breaks, everyone knows who is getting the ball and they will block, or run decoy routes, to benefit the AR receiver.

The concepts I listed above work to get someone open. That someone is determined by what the defense does. And what the defense does determines who Kap should throw to. If a defense is showing a certain tendency, then Kap can have a good idea of what will happen (who will be open). If not, then he needs to see post snap what the defense ends up doing. So no, the concepts I listed are not designed for an AR to get open because it is not an AR play.

Oh, OK...I hear you. I s/h been more clear in that statement (I was speaking more collectively). And I'll be honest, once I started seeing more PS passing concepts you noted in still's and gif's and esp. once Crabtree came back, I hadn't focused as much on the designs or nearly as much as I did in the first half of the year.

So in short, many of the passing plays come down to a few types of designs?
1) PS - CK reads the defensive coverage and the design of the passing play is typically to get one or another receiver open, usually in the same quadrant. If the S drops down on Crabtree, pass to VD. If the S stays with VD, hit Crabtree.
2) AR1 - This is a predetermined "team passing concept" using decoys receivers to clear space for the AR. This is illustrated in your above still's and gif (thanks for that).
3) AR2 - Same concept but more physical in nature where the non-AR's physically block out defenders to clear space for the AR (like a WR screen); we see this mostly in the RZ.

Would you agree?

100% I agree with your definitions above. The PS plays the 49ers run are usually coverage reads. This has been discussed here and there on this forum. Using your example in 1), Kap will focus on a certain defender (or two) and depending on what those defenders do, Kap will know what to do. So to further your definition, Kap doesn't know which WR will be open when the huddle breaks, but he will focus on a certain area of the field (you mentioned quadrant) where the route combination being ran will attempt to get someone open.

See, I knew we were on the same page here! I know there have been a few plays in the past where we differ in an AR1 or PS identification design but there aren't many. For me, I typically try my best to watch where the pass goes first and then work backwards to help ID the design (so after the catch, I rewind and watch the routes/roles of the non-AR's and then CK himself, pre-snap and throughout the play). But like you noted, some of these either-or routes are pretty easy to spot by the design alone, no doubt and you do a fantastic job of illustrating that from coaches film and esp. with the gif's (which are huge for me re: play development).

If Harbaugh wants CK to get a better grasp on coverage read passing plays, he has GOT to get the plays in quicker to allow him time to properly diagnose what he thinks the defensive coverage is and will be throughout the play in IDing the either-or receiver. As to what % we run PS plays vs. AR1 vs. AR2's, I'd probably put them in this exact order but since Crabtree came back so late, I'm unsure of the % breakdown right now.
Originally posted by Niners816:
I could only listen to the NO(After the b******t call on Justin, I had little patience to rewatch the game )game so I'm really not recognizing play #1, but did he at least complete the fly pattern. Spot has always been one of my favorite WCO concepts and like you said with its vertical and horizontal aspects it should have got someone open. On the tape, did the spot concept work even tho he passed it up.

It's kinda funny, I just rewatched the opener from '94 and I kid you not the Niners must have run a variation of spot 8-9 times

Kap only looked to the backside WR (Ham) on a back shoulder throw that resulted in an incomplete pass. This was a first down play and a true WCO would take what's given in the name of "ball control passing". Kap went for the big play.

And yes, someone did get open as a result of the Spot play being ran on the strong side of the formation, Gore in the flat. It probably would have just netted 4-5 yards, but hey, that's ball control passing.

Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by awp8912:
On 49ers: Will Harbaugh loosen up the offense next season?

http://www.sacbee.com/2014/04/03/6294845/on-49ers-will-harbaugh-loosen.html

Thank you.

I love MB...he is my favorite by far:

The 49ers considered several wideouts during free agency – Julian Edelman, Hakeem Nicks and Emmanuel Sanders – and they at least flirted with the idea of acquiring the most high-profile receiver available, DeSean Jackson. That suggests they had a plan to incorporate Jackson into an offense with Michael Crabtree, Anquan Boldin and Vernon Davis.

The 49ers have used three wide receivers at the same time roughly 20 percent of the time in the past three seasons, one of the lowest rates in the NFL. Would Jackson – who is not exactly famous for playing the role of good soldier – have been content being on the sideline four out of every five plays? Would he have been worth the price to sign him if he only played 20 percent of the snaps? The answer to both is no.

Yet fans blame Baalke for not being aggressive enough and mortaging our future?
[ Edited by NCommand on Apr 4, 2014 at 2:11 PM ]