OUR PASSING GAME---ANOTHER LOOK

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
It's possible to improve the pass game without increasing the number of passes--better WRs, healthier WRs, more experience/chemistry between CK and WRs, better pass blocking...on and on. But it is easier to improve if you use something more often than if you use it sparingly. You don't improve free throw shooting by less repitition. They either have to practice more reps or use more passes in the game...or both...or one of the other things...

Very true. It is possible to improve the passing game without having to actually call more pass plays. For instance, better pass protection would result in less sacks and more throws. Increased completion % from Kap, as well as better 1st down production, will help to extend drives and eliminate 3 and outs. Longer drives means more plays to run, more passes to throw.

Truth!

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

It's possible to improve the pass game without increasing the number of passes--better WRs, healthier WRs, more experience/chemistry between CK and WRs, better pass blocking...on and on. But it is easier to improve if you use something more often than if you use it sparingly. You don't improve free throw shooting by less repitition. They either have to practice more reps or use more passes in the game...or both...or one of the other things...

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Very true. It is possible to improve the passing game without having to actually call more pass plays. For instance, better pass protection would result in less sacks and more throws. Increased completion % from Kap, as well as better 1st down production, will help to extend drives and eliminate 3 and outs. Longer drives means more plays to run, more passes to throw.

Originally posted by Niners816:

I agree with all of this. IMO, the best way to improve the passing is better execution of the WCO concepts that are already in our playbook. They really are there, thl408 has provided endless amount of examples of them. Don't always need to look backside, when the concept side has scheme a guy wide open. When Kaep gets to this level of understanding look out, cause he really is doing good with half the offense.

If the passing game improves, do we really care how that improvement is achieved.

I do think that we should increase the % of passes we throw, but it would foolish for me to say that we must throw more passes to improve.

Actually, we could throw more passes and worsen our passing offense.

The key is improvement.

Why would you ever throw the ball when Frank Gore is on the field? C'mon man, thats new look Niner football, 8,9,10,11, or even 12th man in the box who cares, iso to Frank from the I formation.

Originally posted by buck:
If the passing game improves, do we really care how that improvement is achieved.

I do think that we should increase the % of passes we throw, but it would foolish for me to say that we must throw more passes to improve.

Actually, we could throw more passes and worsen our passing offense.

The key is improvement.

Yes, I've long given up on a return to a traditional WCO, so am fine with good offense no matter the route!

Wow, talk about an erudite thread...wow! so much in here that is aided by hard work put in by buck, NC, and THl, all of which makes me a better fan by better understanding
"What I just saw"

3 comments:

Thl mentioned kap's peripheral vision on pg.5, and then NC mentioned Kap's tunnel vision on page7. Maybe 6-7 months ago I wrote that I wondered if Kap's peripheral vision was in any way diminished by his narrowly set eyes. In medicine, I have seen many kids with hyperteleorism(extraordinarily wide set eyes), and can be seen in many genetic diseases associated with mental retardation. Kap has the reverse, hypo teleorisim, or narrowly set eyes...and I wondered if possibly that means his peripheral field of vision is diminished from the norm. (Maybe it just means kap is brilliant, I dunno). Honestly, I wish now I would have done a peripheral field of vision on those kids to see if they really could see more in the periphery than other kids could. Sadly I never did. But the question of narrowly set eyes and peripheral field of vision has made me wonder at times if a decreased field of vision is a possibility for kap, and looking straight ahead if he saw less peripherally than others do. It could be tested for and quantified.

Thing is, after watching reels of tape,(and discs), it seems kap has locked onto a guy from the moment the ball is snapped, and peripheral field of vision isn't the problem. Locking on, telegraphing...whatever you want to call it, is remarkable in its consistency. So narrowly set eyes and possibly decr peripheral field of vision aside, kap is going to the LOS and everyone in the building knows where the pass is going.

To me that is teachable, ie, taking a good scan of the field sometime in the process of dropping back, and it is certainly one of the things that would help kap realize, that hey, there are other guys out there and they ARE open.
Perhaps that is an AR1/AR2 thing, maybe not. But it is ugly bad when your qB misses 2 or 3 other guys open either in mid field or on other side. It is rare to see kap scan the field to the other side, particularly to the Left. When he does, he virtually never looks right. Coach H can work with him on that, and it would sure have made for a lot more passes to open targets. I would hope that comes to pass.

Along the same line, and adding to dtg's comments about repetition of passes: If kap doesn't practice the touch pass, why would anyone expect him to be good at it...again that is Coach H. Kap's biggest weakness is the chain mover, the
6-7 yd pass and again, why would he be good at it if Coach H isn't having him work on it? The WCO 6 yarder would have killed the SEahawks in the 2nd half of NFCC. Yet I don't think I saw one of those thrown. THAT IS ROMAN...and Coach H can help that one helluva lot. But if JH doesn't work kap on short stuff and work roman on calling 1st down 6 yarders, well, that sure isn't kap's fault.

Bottom line: our coaching needs to be a lot better in the end of season games. The plays were there. They just never got called. Tough for kap to complete a pass never called. My choice of #1 pick in the draft? OC.

Incidentally, touched on by NC, I think we have the receivers we need already. Want to run 3 wide... use Vernon as WR. We have done it already. But the disuse of vance and Vernon, and forgetting we have 2 WRs, not one...that is on kap some, but primarily again, roman. We have the talent we need for a passing game. And if we take WR high(which I hope we don't), he won't do anything but warm the bench. That is the Harbaugh way.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Wow, talk about an erudite thread...wow! so much in here that is aided by hard work put in by buck, NC, and THl, all of which makes me a better fan by better understanding
"What I just saw"

The thread has developed well. I feel that I have learned a lot.

I was worried that it would turn into a messy exchange.

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Wow, talk about an erudite thread...wow! so much in here that is aided by hard work put in by buck, NC, and THl, all of which makes me a better fan by better understanding
"What I just saw"

The thread has developed well. I feel that I have learned a lot.

I was worried that it would turn into a messy exchange.

And you've added a ton!

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Wow, talk about an erudite thread...wow! so much in here that is aided by hard work put in by buck, NC, and THl, all of which makes me a better fan by better understanding
"What I just saw"

3 comments:

Thl mentioned kap's peripheral vision on pg.5, and then NC mentioned Kap's tunnel vision on page7. Maybe 6-7 months ago I wrote that I wondered if Kap's peripheral vision was in any way diminished by his narrowly set eyes. In medicine, I have seen many kids with hyperteleorism(extraordinarily wide set eyes), and can be seen in many genetic diseases associated with mental retardation. Kap has the reverse, hypo teleorisim, or narrowly set eyes...and I wondered if possibly that means his peripheral field of vision is diminished from the norm. (Maybe it just means kap is brilliant, I dunno). Honestly, I wish now I would have done a peripheral field of vision on those kids to see if they really could see more in the periphery than other kids could. Sadly I never did. But the question of narrowly set eyes and peripheral field of vision has made me wonder at times if a decreased field of vision is a possibility for kap, and looking straight ahead if he saw less peripherally than others do. It could be tested for and quantified.

Thing is, after watching reels of tape,(and discs), it seems kap has locked onto a guy from the moment the ball is snapped, and peripheral field of vision isn't the problem. Locking on, telegraphing...whatever you want to call it, is remarkable in its consistency. So narrowly set eyes and possibly decr peripheral field of vision aside, kap is going to the LOS and everyone in the building knows where the pass is going.

To me that is teachable, ie, taking a good scan of the field sometime in the process of dropping back, and it is certainly one of the things that would help kap realize, that hey, there are other guys out there and they ARE open.
Perhaps that is an AR1/AR2 thing, maybe not. But it is ugly bad when your qB misses 2 or 3 other guys open either in mid field or on other side. It is rare to see kap scan the field to the other side, particularly to the Left. When he does, he virtually never looks right. Coach H can work with him on that, and it would sure have made for a lot more passes to open targets. I would hope that comes to pass.

Along the same line, and adding to dtg's comments about repetition of passes: If kap doesn't practice the touch pass, why would anyone expect him to be good at it...again that is Coach H. Kap's biggest weakness is the chain mover, the
6-7 yd pass and again, why would he be good at it if Coach H isn't having him work on it? The WCO 6 yarder would have killed the SEahawks in the 2nd half of NFCC. Yet I don't think I saw one of those thrown. THAT IS ROMAN...and Coach H can help that one helluva lot. But if JH doesn't work kap on short stuff and work roman on calling 1st down 6 yarders, well, that sure isn't kap's fault.

Bottom line: our coaching needs to be a lot better in the end of season games. The plays were there. They just never got called. Tough for kap to complete a pass never called. My choice of #1 pick in the draft? OC.

Incidentally, touched on by NC, I think we have the receivers we need already. Want to run 3 wide... use Vernon as WR. We have done it already. But the disuse of vance and Vernon, and forgetting we have 2 WRs, not one...that is on kap some, but primarily again, roman. We have the talent we need for a passing game. And if we take WR high(which I hope we don't), he won't do anything but warm the bench. That is the Harbaugh way.

Gotta love the MD's perspective here. Here's a psychological theory...paralysis by analysis. He is thinking too much right now and is often times, rushed at the LOS and has been in a lot of pressure/rush situations in big games.

We as fans have to seperate out the successful plays...if it's an AR1 or AR2 or primary read in a PS play, if it works, it works as drawn up. That's a good thing as the execution was flawless against that D.

Our concerns lie in what happens when that AR or primary reads (one or the other in a quadrant) are covered up. Then what? This, to me, HAS to be the next wave of installments and QB coaching...seeing the whole field, knowing where your outlets are and learning to use them quickly if the primary/secondary read isn't there. Period. And if we do get a speed guy faster than VD (4.3) and Patton (4.4) and use him to take shots deep, he'll need to practice the deeper passes and timing as well. And scrap the fade routes. LOL.

Coaching and play designs can also go a long ways in helping CK in his growth.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Gotta love the MD's perspective here. Here's a psychological theory...paralysis by analysis. He is thinking too much right now and is often times, rushed at the LOS and has been in a lot of pressure/rush situations in big games.
...edited...
Coaching and play designs can also go a long ways in helping CK in his growth.

Love that term because it has always been true of me when learning a sport, and once you get the concepts down and can go 100%, all things falling into place and it becomes nothing but fun!

I'm hoping Kilgore starts at center and really jells with Iupati and Boone. That would go a long way to helping Kaepernick. Also want Davis to bounce back a bit trimmer and just as mean. He dropped off at times last year and it was frustrating to watch him being beaten around the corner. But some of those plays could have been assisted by a chip from a TE or a RB to help him out.

You mean great running teams don't throw it often?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

your winnings inspector Renault.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Along the same line, and adding to dtg's comments about repetition of passes: If kap doesn't practice the touch pass, why would anyone expect him to be good at it...again that is Coach H. Kap's biggest weakness is the chain mover, the
6-7 yd pass and again, why would he be good at it if Coach H isn't having him work on it? The WCO 6 yarder would have killed the SEahawks in the 2nd half of NFCC. Yet I don't think I saw one of those thrown. THAT IS ROMAN...and Coach H can help that one helluva lot. But if JH doesn't work kap on short stuff and work roman on calling 1st down 6 yarders, well, that sure isn't kap's fault.

Bottom line: our coaching needs to be a lot better in the end of season games. The plays were there. They just never got called. Tough for kap to complete a pass never called. My choice of #1 pick in the draft? OC.

Incidentally, touched on by NC, I think we have the receivers we need already. Want to run 3 wide... use Vernon as WR. We have done it already. But the disuse of vance and Vernon, and forgetting we have 2 WRs, not one...that is on kap some, but primarily again, roman. We have the talent we need for a passing game. And if we take WR high(which I hope we don't), he won't do anything but warm the bench. That is the Harbaugh way.

Things just got tougher on our coaching staff. Mangenius is now coaching the critical TE spot. In harbaugh's offense the TE is the Dwight Clark ball control receiver in Bill Walsh's offense in my opinion. The TE is the guy that blocks for the run (which is what Harbaugh does at least 50% or more and given Buck's stats - it's *over* 50% in some cases) and catches those critical 3rd and 6 or 2nd and 10 yard drag under passes. I hope this works because this move smacks of Andy Ried and Juan Castillo. [sarcasm] Philly had a great season in 2012 [/Sarcasm]

Originally posted by baltien:

You mean great running teams don't throw it often?

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

All the great offenses DO throw it often. NFL is a passing league, and the great offenses always have great passing games. That usually means a balance with long, intermediate and short passes as well as runs.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

Along the same line, and adding to dtg's comments about repetition of passes: If kap doesn't practice the touch pass, why would anyone expect him to be good at it...again that is Coach H. Kap's biggest weakness is the chain mover, the 6-7 yd pass and again, why would he be good at it if Coach H isn't having him work on it? The WCO 6 yarder would have killed the SEahawks in the 2nd half of NFCC. Yet I don't think I saw one of those thrown. THAT IS ROMAN...and Coach H can help that one helluva lot. But if JH doesn't work kap on short stuff and work roman on calling 1st down 6 yarders, well, that sure isn't kap's fault.

Bottom line: our coaching needs to be a lot better in the end of season games. The plays were there. They just never got called. Tough for kap to complete a pass never called. My choice of #1 pick in the draft? OC.

Exactly correct!

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:

I think we have the receivers we need already. Want to run 3 wide... use Vernon as WR. We have done it already. But the disuse of vance and Vernon, and forgetting we have 2 WRs, not one...that is on kap some, but primarily again, roman. We have the talent we need for a passing game. And if we take WR high(which I hope we don't), he won't do anything but warm the bench. That is the Harbaugh way.

I agree with you, they under-utilize their talent. Ted Ginn runs a 4.3 yet he NEVER got a deep ball! Why not, just to loosen up the D? Even Ricardo Lockette cut by us made plays for Seahawks. So they appear to be VERY STUBBORN on offense and will not spread the ball around, but instead will only feed their favs (Gore running and pass to Crabtree and Boldin)

But still I think they need a deep threat WR that they will actually target to loosen up the D

The 49ers have excellent offensive players yet the 49ers offense was below average ranking 24th in total offense, 25th in first downs, and 31st in total plays despite being +12 in turnovers.

Offense is mostly a product of coaching. If Walsh had our same players they would be a top 5 offense. Under Roman/Harbs they are ~average at best. Bill Walsh always said that defense requires talent whereas offense is the result of coaching and practice. The 49ers have excellent offensive players. They have six first rd picks and four 2nd rd picks on offense. They have ~6-9 borderline pro-bowlers on offense (RB, FB, TE, WR, LT, LG, RG, RT & QB+/-). Yet the 49ers offense was below average. Why is this? There are many reasons, but the main reason is our offense is poorly schemed and out of balance with their over-emphasis on the run and severe lack of a short passing game. (also not a good deep passing game, just intermediate passes to Crabtree and Boldin)

We have great defense, great special teams and an sub-average offense due to Roman (and Harbaugh).