There are 89 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

OUR PASSING GAME---ANOTHER LOOK

Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by Niners816:
I could only listen to the NO(After the b******t call on Justin, I had little patience to rewatch the game )game so I'm really not recognizing play #1, but did he at least complete the fly pattern. Spot has always been one of my favorite WCO concepts and like you said with its vertical and horizontal aspects it should have got someone open. On the tape, did the spot concept work even tho he passed it up.

It's kinda funny, I just rewatched the opener from '94 and I kid you not the Niners must have run a variation of spot 8-9 times

Kap only looked to the backside WR (Ham) on a back shoulder throw that resulted in an incomplete pass. This was a first down play and a true WCO would take what's given in the name of "ball control passing". Kap went for the big play.

And yes, someone did get open as a result of the Spot play being ran on the strong side of the formation, Gore in the flat. It probably would have just netted 4-5 yards, but hey, that's ball control passing.


And who's to say even 5 yards? There is no defender on Gore and he's got a man to block in front of him. I call it "ball control with benefits." LMAO
Originally posted by thl408:
Kap only looked to the backside WR (Ham) on a back shoulder throw that resulted in an incomplete pass. This was a first down play and a true WCO would take what's given in the name of "ball control passing". Kap went for the big play.

And yes, someone did get open as a result of the Spot play being ran on the strong side of the formation, Gore in the flat. It probably would have just netted 4-5 yards, but hey, that's ball control passing.


Thanks for posting the gif. Yea I would say the spot concept worked nicely in that situation. Now I know there is a time and place for back shoulder throws, but if he would just work the concepts everything else would open up. Lets say you take gore a couple of times, eventually they are gonna try to take the flats away and then that helps open up the corner and the stop.

The west coast offense still works very well in the NFL today, I just wish we would hammer it in to Kaep that the throw is on the concept side. Not everything has to be the hardest possible throw. Ham's route there against seattle most likely results in getting grabbed and held and Richard being able to look like the greatest corner in the league. Now on the other hand, you work the spot concept and most likely you make that b***h make a tackle on a back with a little head of steam.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Apr 4, 2014 at 2:26 PM ]


Just stumbled on this today, not really on topic but there is never a bad time to relive the start of this game About the only time in Pete Carroll's life he was on the good side.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Apr 4, 2014 at 2:36 PM ]
I don't really mind that Kaep throws a lot at the first guy. He does get it there and there is no question how much better Crabtree is with a #2 out there. I thought that CK looked fantastic at times once he had just Boldin and Crabs on the field. I just hate to see a talent like VD not get completely abused by targets from Kaep. In the big picture there is just so much more potential in the receiving core. Guys like Patton will never get the work they need to improve if they are only getting a couple targets.

It seems to me that the line does indeed have something to do with that (as was mentioned earlier)
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 3,932
Originally posted by buck:
The objective should be to improve the passing game and by doing so improve the overall offensive.

If that can be done without increasing the numbers of passes thrown, I have no problem with that.

If we thrown more passes and the passing game improves, I have no problem with that.

In other words, the central question is NOT, at least in estimation, the number of passes thrown.

What I would like to see is the passing game become more productive.

Improving the passing game will not require or cause a deterioration of the running game.

I don't have a problem with what you said, and I'll just piggy back on it actually and add just one more thing to the criteria you mentioned. The offense has to fit your QB. Take the example of Montana, the WCO fit him perfectly, and just like Montana, this offense should be designed to fit Kaepernick. Considering he's still developing in all phases, that's a little bit hard to define what exactly fits since we don't know yet where a lot of his ceilings lie. Does the progression offense or the Lindy Infanti option concepts work better for Kaepernick? Personally, I think he's equally bad in both (meaning he's still got a lot of learning in both) before he's 100% comfortable in either.

I looked back to Luck's offense on that 2010 Stanford squad. They had Colby at TE, and Baldwin and Owusu at WR's, Baldwin and Owusu have pretty good speed, and their 3rd WR (Ryan Whalen) was essentially another Anquan. Colby Fleener was an all world TE just like VD. If there is *one* thing that will almost guarantee improvement on the passing offense whether Kaepernick improves his QB reading ability or not, it's the speed WR's. Speed and more Speed and lots of it -- is what I'm looking for in this years draft. I wouldn't be adverse for the front office to draft 3 speed burner guys in the draft and get a couple more via UDFA if you ask me.
  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 3,932
Originally posted by awp8912:
On 49ers: Will Harbaugh loosen up the offense next season?

http://www.sacbee.com/2014/04/03/6294845/on-49ers-will-harbaugh-loosen.html

You know how Harbaugh sets the media up to disinform, so I wouldn't read much into it. I'd say a better indication is how they draft in 2014, that will go a long way to indicate whether they open up the offense or not this next season.
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 12,906
We generally consider that the Harbaugh-Roman offensive scheme is a run first scheme.

That understanding has been stressed by many throughout our discussions of their offensive scheme, and our passing game in particular. The numbers seem to support that vision.





But, where do sacks fit into these numbers. Sacks can only occur on passing plays.

I believe, but I am not sure, that sacks are included in the numbers as rushing plays. It does not seem likely that sacks are counted as pass attempts, because no pass was thrown.

If I am correct, the percentages of rushing and passing will change.

This change could alter our perceptions of the run dominance of the Harbaugh-Roman offensive scheme.
I am not saying that it should alter our perception, but it might be a consideration.

Below is a table with adjustments made for sacks. In 2013, SF quarter backs were sacked 39 times.

In this table, I moved those sacks into the passing numbers and removed them for the running numbers.




As I said I am not sure how or where sacks should be considered when looking at the run-pass statistics.

Does anyone know for sure?
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 12,906
In addition to adjusting the pass-run % for sacks, should a similar adjustment be made for quarterback scrambles

A scramble, as opposed to a designated quarterback run, should be counted as a passing play.
Well, at least I think it should as a pass was the called play.

Again, I would like to state again, I am not that adjustment for sacks should be made.

I looked in PFF, ESPN, and NFL.COM for numbers on scrambles, but I could not find any.

Stats are nice and all, but at the end of the day, what matters most is the W.
Originally posted by buck:
In addition to adjusting the pass-run % for sacks, should a similar adjustment be made for quarterback scrambles

A scramble, as opposed to a designated quarterback run, should be counted as a passing play.
Well, at least I think it should as a pass was the called play.

Again, I would like to state again, I am not that adjustment for sacks should be made.

I looked in PFF, ESPN, and NFL.COM for numbers on scrambles, but I could not find any.


Great stuff, Buck. I have to correct you on the pass-run %, adjusted for sacks. Sacks are not counted as run plays, or pass plays, but they are added to the total play count. So for instance, on the season we had:

417 pass
505 run
39 sacks
961 total plays ran

So to get the true run/pass ratio, we can add sacks to the pass total. (417+39) / 961 = 47.5%. So the adjusted ratio is

47.5% pass
52.5% run

Scrambles are counted into the run total. It is true that those were originally pass calls, but I don't see any way to total how many there were without re-watching all the games, which I'm not going to do.
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 12,906
Originally posted by Team49ers:
Stats are nice and all, but at the end of the day, what matters most is the W.

Very true.

Would improving our passing game help us get more wins? I think it would, but who knows.

But, wait a minute. Justin Smith said that stats are for.....
[ Edited by buck on Apr 4, 2014 at 4:27 PM ]
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 12,906
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Originally posted by buck:
In addition to adjusting the pass-run % for sacks, should a similar adjustment be made for quarterback scrambles

A scramble, as opposed to a designated quarterback run, should be counted as a passing play.
Well, at least I think it should as a pass was the called play.

Again, I would like to state again, I am not that adjustment for sacks should be made.

I looked in PFF, ESPN, and NFL.COM for numbers on scrambles, but I could not find any.


Great stuff, Buck. I have to correct you on the pass-run %, adjusted for sacks. Sacks are not counted as run plays, or pass plays, but they are added to the total play count. So for instance, on the season we had:

417 pass
505 run
39 sacks
961 total plays ran

So to get the true run/pass ratio, we can add sacks to the pass total. (417+39) / 961 = 47.5%. So the adjusted ratio is

47.5% pass
52.5% run

Scrambles are counted into the run total. It is true that those were originally pass calls, but I don't see any way to total how many there were without re-watching all the games, which I'm not going to do.

Thanks.

Clearly, you know more about statistical computation than I do. I would not have been able to figure that out.

I could watch all the games again on Game Pass, but I do not have the time.

Plus, I am sure that I would lose count and have to start over.
It's possible to improve the pass game without increasing the number of passes--better WRs, healthier WRs, more experience/chemistry between CK and WRs, better pass blocking...on and on. But it is easier to improve if you use something more often than if you use it sparingly. You don't improve free throw shooting by less repitition. They either have to practice more reps or use more passes in the game...or both...or one of the other things...
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
It's possible to improve the pass game without increasing the number of passes--better WRs, healthier WRs, more experience/chemistry between CK and WRs, better pass blocking...on and on. But it is easier to improve if you use something more often than if you use it sparingly. You don't improve free throw shooting by less repitition. They either have to practice more reps or use more passes in the game...or both...or one of the other things...

Very true. It is possible to improve the passing game without having to actually call more pass plays. For instance, better pass protection would result in less sacks and more throws. Increased completion % from Kap, as well as better 1st down production, will help to extend drives and eliminate 3 and outs. Longer drives means more plays to run, more passes to throw.
[ Edited by SofaKing on Apr 4, 2014 at 5:14 PM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
It's possible to improve the pass game without increasing the number of passes--better WRs, healthier WRs, more experience/chemistry between CK and WRs, better pass blocking...on and on. But it is easier to improve if you use something more often than if you use it sparingly. You don't improve free throw shooting by less repitition. They either have to practice more reps or use more passes in the game...or both...or one of the other things...

I agree with all of this. IMO, the best way to improve the passing is better execution of the WCO concepts that are already in our playbook. They really are there, thl408 has provided endless amount of examples of them. Don't always need to look backside, when the concept side has scheme a guy wide open. When Kaep gets to this level of understanding look out, cause he really is doing good with half the offense.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Apr 4, 2014 at 5:15 PM ]