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Are we transitioning to a single high safety?!
Mar 26, 2014 at 9:03 AM
- NeeJ49er
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by the end of the draft , I'm willing to bet we will have the players to run a lot of different systems ....the skies the limit for us
Mar 26, 2014 at 10:12 AM
- xela510
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He thinks he signed to the Seahawks are something.
Mar 26, 2014 at 7:28 PM
- Gavintech
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Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
I think we have most of the elements needed, with the exception of the big, physical corners (though Cully has nice size). That, and Eric Reid is no Earl Thomas.
And in some aspects of the game Earl Thomas is no Eric Reid. Plus one was just a rookie.
Mar 27, 2014 at 1:09 PM
- jonnydel
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Well, one thing to make sure we're all aware of. There is a difference between "single safety" and "single high safety". single safety is more of an underneath zone coverage scheme that looks to take away the horizontal stretch/crossing type of combinations to prevent the underneath throws while giving strong run support but being susceptible to deep skinny post combinations and other deep routes(deep in/out and corner routes). A "single high safety" look is closer to the kind of "cover 3" look we most often use. When we use a single safety look it is mostly in a single "high" look that is more the "cover 3" or "man in your zone" pattern match type of coverage. This defense is more susceptible to the horizontal stretch as the defenders are looking to get more depth on their coverage to take away those deep in/out and skinny post patterns. This is not the same as Seattle's defense. Seattle plays a single safety scheme with their safety playing that scheme deeper than most. With the different schemes you have to look at the defense as a whole, not necessarily how one player plays that particular scheme. I'll follow with some pics to illustrate.
Mar 27, 2014 at 1:18 PM
- jonnydel
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Here's an example of single "high" safety coverage from Carolina
Here's how we most often play a single "high" safety defense. we start out with a 2 safety look but rotate into a "single high safety" "cover 3" defense.
Note here how the defense is aiming to stop the deeper routes, the deep in and outs are covered.
Mar 27, 2014 at 1:29 PM
- jonnydel
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Here's carolina playing a "single safety" scheme.
Notice the shallow set of the single safety with the press man.
Notice how shallow the defenders have taken their drop in coverage which opens up the deep in for Crabtree. Also, if the safety plays the deep in, Davis is open on the skinny post - the vulnerabilities of the single safety scheme.
Notice the shallow set of the single safety with the press man.
Notice how shallow the defenders have taken their drop in coverage which opens up the deep in for Crabtree. Also, if the safety plays the deep in, Davis is open on the skinny post - the vulnerabilities of the single safety scheme.
Mar 27, 2014 at 1:36 PM
- thl408
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Glad to have you back as an active poster jonnydel.
Single high safety (cover1 man) with Whitner being the center fielder: CAR playoff game, Willis INT.
Single high safety (cover1 man) with Whitner being the center fielder: CAR playoff game, Willis INT.
Mar 27, 2014 at 1:45 PM
- thl408
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Originally posted by jonnydel:
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Notice how shallow the defenders have taken their drop in coverage which opens up the deep in for Crabtree. Also, if the safety plays the deep in, Davis is open on the skinny post - the vulnerabilities of the single safety scheme.
The single high safety is obviously susceptible to being attacked with deep routes, provided the QB/WR have time to get downfield to attack that safety. On the play you showed, Kap got smacked as soon as he let go of the throw. But the two routes were fully developed (got past the LB level) as the safety chose to play VD's skinny post while giving up the middle of the field for Crabs to work.
CAR and SEA, two teams willing to play this, have a ferocious 4 man pass rush which protects the lone safety.
Mar 27, 2014 at 4:47 PM
- jonnydel
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Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by jonnydel:
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Notice how shallow the defenders have taken their drop in coverage which opens up the deep in for Crabtree. Also, if the safety plays the deep in, Davis is open on the skinny post - the vulnerabilities of the single safety scheme.
The single high safety is obviously susceptible to being attacked with deep routes, provided the QB/WR have time to get downfield to attack that safety. On the play you showed, Kap got smacked as soon as he let go of the throw. But the two routes were fully developed (got past the LB level) as the safety chose to play VD's skinny post while giving up the middle of the field for Crabs to work.
CAR and SEA, two teams willing to play this, have a ferocious 4 man pass rush which protects the lone safety.
good to be posting again, it's taken me a while to get excited for the upcoming season after the way the last one ended....
From my perspective, I was more talking about the difference in the, "single high safety" and "single safety" designation. They can get rather confusing because so often the terms are used to mean the same thing. But, from a scheme standpoint, there is a difference between the two. It's usually not as much a difference in the defensive call but as in the way the team will play the defensive call. The "single safety" is what Seattle plays, with Earl Thomas taking a deep set pre-snap because they play such an aggressive press coverage. The "single high safety" is how we tend to play our man and cover 3 zone coverages. Where the emphasis is on "not letting anyone get behind you" instead of disruption of timing and trying to take away the short middle of the field like Seattle does. With the "single safety" scheme, teams are giving up the deeper routes, relying on their pass rush and timing disruption to defeat the offense. With a "single high safety" the emphasis is on, make the other team execute a long series of short plays to beat you while still having an extra safety for run support.
When I was reading through this thread I was seeing some confusion over the difference and some thinking that Chris Cook didn't know what he was saying. We actually play a "single high safety" scheme through almost 50% of our plays. It's just that we don't hardly ever show it pre-snap. We're definitely a "don't let anyone behind you" defense.
Mar 28, 2014 at 9:49 PM
- thl408
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Originally posted by jonnydel:
good to be posting again, it's taken me a while to get excited for the upcoming season after the way the last one ended....
From my perspective, I was more talking about the difference in the, "single high safety" and "single safety" designation. They can get rather confusing because so often the terms are used to mean the same thing. But, from a scheme standpoint, there is a difference between the two. It's usually not as much a difference in the defensive call but as in the way the team will play the defensive call. The "single safety" is what Seattle plays, with Earl Thomas taking a deep set pre-snap because they play such an aggressive press coverage. The "single high safety" is how we tend to play our man and cover 3 zone coverages. Where the emphasis is on "not letting anyone get behind you" instead of disruption of timing and trying to take away the short middle of the field like Seattle does. With the "single safety" scheme, teams are giving up the deeper routes, relying on their pass rush and timing disruption to defeat the offense. With a "single high safety" the emphasis is on, make the other team execute a long series of short plays to beat you while still having an extra safety for run support.
When I was reading through this thread I was seeing some confusion over the difference and some thinking that Chris Cook didn't know what he was saying. We actually play a "single high safety" scheme through almost 50% of our plays. It's just that we don't hardly ever show it pre-snap. We're definitely a "don't let anyone behind you" defense.
I'm trying to understand what you meant by the bolded. The pre-snap look would be single high safety, but the coverage itself is "cover3 sky" as 1 safety and 2 CBS take their deep third zones. At least that's what I refer to it as.
I agree with your example of how SEA plays 'single safety' when playing press. EThomas is by his lonesome as he has free range to help where ever he thinks he is needed as the CBs press in man coverage. When SEA goes to cover3, they show the same look, it's just that the CBs bail at the snap to form cover3 sky.
Going back to what Cook said: "They want me to be the press guy," Cook said. "And that's what I like to do. I feel like I'll fit in well with the one-high scheme that they like to run. I came from a two-high scheme. And I feel like a one-high scheme and a man-to-man scheme fits me well."
The bolded makes me think he either doesn't know the 49ers tendencies, or he gave a hint into what Fangio wants to do more of next season. The 49ers, the majority of the time, show a cover2 look. From there, they go into a variety of coverages including cover3 sky, or as you call it "single high safety". The reason I question Cook here is because when going with cover3 sky, WRs are not pressed at the line of scrimmage since the CBs have to bail and get to their deep zones. It's when a team calls man coverage, that's when you might see the CBs press the WRs (this is what SEA does). The 49ers only on occasion played cover1 man in 13-14, and when they did, they didn't press. Probably because they didn't have the horses to pull it off.
Anyway, my point is that if what Cook says is true, that means the 49ers are looking to play more press man while placing an enormous responsibility on Reid. At least, that's my interpretation of what he said.
Just to show an example of what you call 'single high safety' and I call 'cover3 sky' (taken from a film thread):
Cover2 look
Post snap, Reid doesn't move. Whitner slides to the middle of the field. The CBs (#25, #26) bail to get to their deep thirds.
Cover3 sky (1 safety, 2 CBs take their deep thirds)
Mar 28, 2014 at 10:00 PM
- thl408
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Okay, I just re-read what you posted above and it seems like this is what you mean. Let me know what you think, jonnydel. I think your posts #80 and #81 explained it well. I should have just reexamined that a few times before posting above.
Your definitions:
"Single safety" is what you say SEA uses. This is cover1 man, right? The single safety is playing centerfield with freedom to roam. Huge responsibility here. I feel this is what Cook is talking about, not sure.
"Single high safety" is when 1 safety is in a deep middle zone while accompanied by 2 CBS. I call this cover3 sky.
Your definitions:
"Single safety" is what you say SEA uses. This is cover1 man, right? The single safety is playing centerfield with freedom to roam. Huge responsibility here. I feel this is what Cook is talking about, not sure.
"Single high safety" is when 1 safety is in a deep middle zone while accompanied by 2 CBS. I call this cover3 sky.
Mar 29, 2014 at 9:10 AM
- jonnydel
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Originally posted by thl408:
Okay, I just re-read what you posted above and it seems like this is what you mean. Let me know what you think, jonnydel. I think your posts #80 and #81 explained it well. I should have just reexamined that a few times before posting above.
Your definitions:
"Single safety" is what you say SEA uses. This is cover1 man, right? The single safety is playing centerfield with freedom to roam. Huge responsibility here. I feel this is what Cook is talking about, not sure.
"Single high safety" is when 1 safety is in a deep middle zone while accompanied by 2 CBS. I call this cover3 sky.
exactly, and we did play some press with a cover 3 sky type of coverage, The difference between us and Seattle is that we don't just show a single safety pre-snap and we emphasize deep drops from our LB's if not in man coverage responsibility.
Here's an example from the Colt's game;
We show the 2 deep shell defense with Rogers pressed in the slot and Assomgha pressed at the bottom of the screen.
Here you see how we've rotated into a cover 1 man with the underneath LB's and Reid dropping into a deep zone because the RB's haven't gone out in pass patterns and Whitner is the high safety.
We used Reid and Whitner interchangeably as the single safety, that's how Fangio likes to do it. He really likes to have the defense look mirrored on either side regardless of the strength of the offense to keep from showing any kind of tell as to what the defense is going to do on that play.
I think a lot of the content of my posts has more been in trying to show that it isn't an either/or that cook either doesn't know what he's saying or that we're transitioning to Seattle's defense. I think he's just talking about a tool that we used at times being used more. We also do play a lot of cover 3 and cover -1 pattern match defense. Much more than any cover 2 or quarters coverage, so talking about us playing the single high is still very accurate to what we do, you just don't see it until after the snap.
Mar 29, 2014 at 9:21 AM
- dtg_9er
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thl408 and jonnydel--thanks for the excellent clarifications!
Mar 29, 2014 at 11:17 AM
- hondakillerzx
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the way our DBs are dropping like flies we may only have one safety back there lol
Mar 29, 2014 at 1:27 PM
- Giedi
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- Posts: 32,246
Originally posted by jonnydel:good to be posting again, it's taken me a while to get excited for the upcoming season after the way the last one ended....
From my perspective, I was more talking about the difference in the, "single high safety" and "single safety" designation. They can get rather confusing because so often the terms are used to mean the same thing. But, from a scheme standpoint, there is a difference between the two. It's usually not as much a difference in the defensive call but as in the way the team will play the defensive call. The "single safety" is what Seattle plays, with Earl Thomas taking a deep set pre-snap because they play such an aggressive press coverage. The "single high safety" is how we tend to play our man and cover 3 zone coverages. Where the emphasis is on "not letting anyone get behind you" instead of disruption of timing and trying to take away the short middle of the field like Seattle does. With the "single safety" scheme, teams are giving up the deeper routes, relying on their pass rush and timing disruption to defeat the offense. With a "single high safety" the emphasis is on, make the other team execute a long series of short plays to beat you while still having an extra safety for run support.
When I was reading through this thread I was seeing some confusion over the difference and some thinking that Chris Cook didn't know what he was saying. We actually play a "single high safety" scheme through almost 50% of our plays. It's just that we don't hardly ever show it pre-snap. We're definitely a "don't let anyone behind you" defense.
I'm looking to see if the 49ers draft a safety with a profile similar to Nick Moody from last year. Nick was a safety before he transitioned to become a Linebacker. First of all, I think with Bowman out, this is Nick and Fangio's chance to develop another all pro inside linebacker that might have actually better coverage ability in the Nickel than Bowman (Moody being a converted safety).
Personally, I'd like a versatile Linebacker/safety (similar to a Jeff Fuller/John Lynch) kind of athlete that can turn a single high safety with weaknesses in the outside seams, into a cover 2 where the coverage weakness in now in the deep middle. Point being, I like defenses that can shift coverage post snap that can confuse a QB's defensive reading of the coverage.
Another thing that Jeff Fuller and John Lynch could do is run support in the nickel defense. These guys will add run stopping power and good coverage in our nickel defenses. So imagine a QB having to read what the combo SS/LB is going to do, and at the same time on the other side Aldon is coming hard on a pass rush or perhaps dropping back into coverage. It will fool with a QB's decision making big time. So, for me, in addition to the front office drafting some good CB's, I'm looking for the 49ers to draft a player that can play both safety and linebacker in a nickel defense.