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Reason and Emotion

There are a lot of people (I won't be as technical as the OP) who just don't understand the rules and want the niners to sign FA, not really for the team, but for their own personnel satisfaction that makes them (and this is key) like they are doing something that they can grasp or latch onto. Its like oxygen, e they can't see it and they don't take into consideration cause its taken for granted, only when all hell is busting loose do they acknowledge it, but then they point fingers and say why didn't we...when everyone was telling them from the begining it has to be taken into account.

With that said, everything has an ebb and flow like the chinese tai chi symbol of yin and yang. However, some have a bigger circle or orbit if you will than others. The niners are seeking to have a wide berth. Others don't see that, they only know that we are orbiting and soon it will be come full circle and we need to rush. When people compare to other teams it is like kids, when you raise them each is different. Like for the broncos their's is different-how long will Payton last? Of course there are other factors at play to. As one poster stated having a QB that is stable helps and replacing him later helps keep the orbit wide. Like Montana to Young or Payton to Luck. Coaching is also key-like Walsh to Seifert. As well as the fron office such as Pittsburgh and the Giants and the Packers-they may have taken a step back, but they are always capable of making you look over your shoulder. The more you have of these and other things the bigger your orbit.

I have seen so many posts, that just say sign sign sign, grab grab, and they say why is this team or that team signing these players, why can't we like them. You really want to find out? then do the research the way many posters do on the niners like AB does with contract numbers and you will have your answer. Then you will know why we don't just empty the bank. These same people are like the Democrats-they want want want this program that program, tell me who is going to pay, how are we going to pay? Now we the govt is in cap hell, unlike the govt though, a team gets penalized. Some say take the penalty. They are only looking at the small picture not the big picture. Even if you go for it - you may not get the pie. Look around the league how many teams have failed that way. Look at the ones that succeed. They are always in the hunt, as long as you are in the hunt there is a chance. The niners are looking to alway be in the hunt.

Those who like to compare to other teams forget they fall off to. Seattle has been quiet on the FA market. They will fall off soon, because they have all those young players they have to sign or lose. So Ebb and Flow, but who manages to keep a longer flow going? That is what the niners are doing- so that they will alway be in the hunt.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Originally posted by TexasNiner:


What is particularly startling to me, if the information we have is correct, is that we were willing to pay T. Brown 10 mil over 3 years or $3.3 mil a year, and yet our two main FA targets at CB (T. Brown and Thurman) both signed one year $3.5 mil contracts elsewhere. Both with lesser teams that have less of a shot of getting them to the playoffs/superbowl. Did we really miss out on potential starters and/or great depth at CB over $200k?


Both guys joined on short "prove it" deals. Brown didn't want to play nickel corner, which is what he would have been doing with Culliver coming back, so he thinks he can go to Oakland and get a better deal next offseason when he's 30...good luck with that.


I think with Thurmond it was a similar issue and wanting to be an outside CB, not a nickel cornerback. I doubt money had anything to do with either guy.


Simply put, the 49ers don't have a lot of holes, unlike teams like Denver which has been s**tting itself in the draft for awhile, the 49ers have drafted relatively well, have been re-signing their own players and building this team intelligently. Let Denver have their shopping spree, they've got some of the same weaknesses as they did last season and still won't win a Superbowl this upcoming season. I think the 49ers are on the right path, they've added value free agents when they've needed to(Dawson, Skuta, Dorsey), made timely front office moves(Boldin), have drafted relatively well and have guys like Carradine, Lattimore and others coming in as reinforcements.


Also your comments about this team standing pat and not improving are pure nonsense. Reid is an upgrade over Goldson and he's just getting started. Brock was playing like the best CB on this team for much of the time he was starting, now you get Culliver coming back, a more disciplined player in Bethea taking over for Whitner, a gaggle of draft picks waiting to be utilized, depth all over the roster.


Your comment about being reasonable doesn't make any sense, Baalke has shown that he'll do exactly that, fill the gaps in on the roster with value priced free agents, you claim you're not advocating for high priced, big buzz style free agents but reading between the lines of what you wrote, that seems exactly like what you're most disappointed about. Since he's been the GM he's done a great job of bringing in reasonably priced, quality players. Who here thought that Skuta would end up being a high quality backup OLB who would play remarkably well in the absence of Aldon Smith? I didn't see many players in free agency that were going to help the 49ers, a bunch of average players primarily.

Bringing in rather average receivers instead of sticking with younger players such as Patton, Baldwin or players selected in the upcoming draft doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense. Teams like Green Bay and the Giants have had successful receivers for awhile because they keep building through the draft. I'm sure the 49ers had interest at a few CB's but they weren't going to overpay for any single player beyond that they thought they were worth.


Spending money just for the sake of spending money doesn't make any sense. If you don't have any faith in various free agents being able to help your team or you feel that they are pricing themselves beyond what their talent dictates, it doesn't make any sense to spend just because. Restraint isn't easy but it is what separates consistent winning franchise's from the one year, flash in the pan operations.

You and I just see things very differently. As is the case with many fans, and the point of this thread. For example: Reid may eventually be an upgrade over Goldson. I sure hope he becomes the next Ronnie Lott. At this point though, it's basically a push. Hopefully, he continues to improve and it isn't a case of a solid player not being asked to do too much by a veteran team. This year will tell a lot as he is now the only starter returning in the secondary. Same kind of deal with Bethea vs. Whitner and our two new starters at CB. If Brock was so good, why wasn't he starting over T. Brown and Rogers when everyone was healthy? It's nice to assume Brock and Cully will be as good or better, but both have been on the team for several years, and neither have shown that they are significantly better than what we have had. At best, they are hopefully the same. So, Eric Wright (hopefully), becomes the the Cully/Brock nickle guy and Cook is the Wright low risk/high reward project. Same kind of deal as last year, just less experience, less depth and we are just hoping for equal or better results and that players with poor performance and/or injury issues last year bounce back.

We will see how Patton develops, but Baldwin seems worthless and has on two different teams. That you would mention him as part of the reason we wouldn't persue a vet startles me. He is camp fodder at best. Skuta was solid, but we need better than that if we are going to compete for the SB, especially with arguably our best player on D out for at least half the year. Again, to me, this seems like a guy who had a career year benefiting from the system and players around him, not someone you can depend on year in and year out to provide championship level play. And we are taking the same kind of risk with all the young guys, especially the ones coming off injuries.

I hope as much as anyone that they become all pros. But to assume so is asinine. Banking on players with little to no experience and injury issues is a very tough sell to me.

The only moves, other than Boldin, which was an excellent move, we have made, were basically when we had no other choice. When we had NO kicker, we signed a kicker, when we had NO NT, we signed Dorsey, when we had NO safety and already a very young guy on one side, we signed Bethea.

To me, retaining T. Brown or getting Thurman or getting a solid vet as a 3rd WR, or getting depth/upgrades on the dline should have been a priority, not a luxury. We are not that dominant of a team. And we don't seem to be trending in the right direction. We didn't necessarily need to do ALL of those things, or to get one of the biggest names out there, but to bank on the draft or our corps of young/injured reserve players to fill all those needs seems overly optimistic, especially when it seems the gap between what we want to pay and what contracts are being signed for are nominally different.

We seem to be willing to pay around $3 mil a year. Contracts are being signed for around $3.5 to 4 mil a year on 1 to 3 years deals. If we had to go from 3 to 4 mil a year to get it done to shore up one of these key areas, to me, that seems well worth it. I have much more confidence in a vet that has proven they can do it at the NFL level, then on a rookie or young player with little to no experience to be the difference maker we need to get over the hump.

We lost two games last year by the slimmest of margins that would have been the difference between homefield advantage in the playoffs, and with that likely a SB appearance. Last years NFCCG and the SB the year before could have had very different outcomes if we had enough depth at WR that teams didn't know exactly who our QB was targeting on the final play of the game with all but complete certainty.

If now isn't the time to improve our depth/starters at the key positions that could get us over the hump to win a SB, I don't know when will be. We will likely lose more key players in the next year or two, as we can't resign everyone. Now is the time to make an immediate push with players on 1-3 year deals. Then, we may have to reaload in a couple years, but by then we will know something about all these young guys on the roster and can make better decisions about how they factor into the future instead of banking on them to be the answer when they are still unknown commodities and could cost us our SB window.
Great point matt about the unintended consequences of signing Revis.
Originally posted by azninersfan:
Well what i find funny is that...

THere are people criticizing the loss of Whitner, Rogers, and Brown and point those losses as reasons why we won't succeed. Then want us to get big name free agents.

What they tend to forget is that we only had Whitner and Rogers in the first place because Nmandi (big name free agent) passed on us and signed with Philly. And that both of those guys were disappointing high 1st rd picks when we got them.

Brown is a solid corner... that was a 5th rd pick and developed over time.

Its not all about big names. Big names make fans like me feel good about Free Agency and the draft... but they typically cost more money than they are worth and end up hurting the team in the long run.

In general, I like the way our FO goes about both the draft and free agency. There's going to be swings and misses, but overall they are out looking for bargains and have a good track record doing so.

Edit: Now draft a shutdown corner and lets win a superbowl.


I agree-if we can turn Carlos around, and develop guys like brown, and brock, not to mention Cully's succcess when he had limited experience at the position, imagine if we get one that is highly regarded. Donotell, Tomosula()sp?) and fangio are coaches that we cannot let go. With that said, wr is another issue. We have not had success yet developing our own and hope patton breaks the mode. If there is one upgrade I want on the team it is our position coach at wr.
Waiting for ElephantHaley's retarded, irrational, troll-worthy, arm-chair GMish, clueless meltdown.............................
[ Edited by Eli_23 on Mar 16, 2014 at 5:45 PM ]
Originally posted by TexasNiner:
You and I just see things very differently. As is the case with many fans, and the point of this thread. For example: Reid may eventually be an upgrade over Goldson. I sure hope he becomes the next Ronnie Lott. At this point though, it's basically a push. Hopefully, he continues to improve and it isn't a case of a solid player not being asked to do too much by a veteran team. This year will tell a lot as he is now the only starter returning in the secondary. Same kind of deal with Bethea vs. Whitner and our two new starters at CB. If Brock was so good, why wasn't he starting over T. Brown and Rogers when everyone was healthy? It's nice to assume Brock and Cully will be as good or better, but both have been on the team for several years, and neither have shown that they are significantly better than what we have had. At best, they are hopefully the same. So, Eric Wright (hopefully), becomes the the Cully/Brock nickle guy and Cook is the Wright low risk/high reward project. Same kind of deal as last year, just less experience, less depth and we are just hoping for equal or better results and that players with poor performance and/or injury issues last year bounce back.

We will see how Patton develops, but Baldwin seems worthless and has on two different teams. That you would mention him as part of the reason we wouldn't persue a vet startles me. He is camp fodder at best. Skuta was solid, but we need better than that if we are going to compete for the SB, especially with arguably our best player on D out for at least half the year. Again, to me, this seems like a guy who had a career year benefiting from the system and players around him, not someone you can depend on year in and year out to provide championship level play. And we are taking the same kind of risk with all the young guys, especially the ones coming off injuries.

I hope as much as anyone that they become all pros. But to assume so is asinine. Banking on players with little to no experience and injury issues is a very tough sell to me.

The only moves, other than Boldin, which was an excellent move, we have made, were basically when we had no other choice. When we had NO kicker, we signed a kicker, when we had NO NT, we signed Dorsey, when we had NO safety and already a very young guy on one side, we signed Bethea.

To me, retaining T. Brown or getting Thurman or getting a solid vet as a 3rd WR, or getting depth/upgrades on the dline should have been a priority, not a luxury. We are not that dominant of a team. And we don't seem to be trending in the right direction. We didn't necessarily need to do ALL of those things, or to get one of the biggest names out there, but to bank on the draft or our corps of young/injured reserve players to fill all those needs seems overly optimistic, especially when it seems the gap between what we want to pay and what contracts are being signed for are nominally different.

We seem to be willing to pay around $3 mil a year. Contracts are being signed for around $3.5 to 4 mil a year on 1 to 3 years deals. If we had to go from 3 to 4 mil a year to get it done to shore up one of these key areas, to me, that seems well worth it. I have much more confidence in a vet that has proven they can do it at the NFL level, then on a rookie or young player with little to no experience to be the difference maker we need to get over the hump.

We lost two games last year by the slimmest of margins that would have been the difference between homefield advantage in the playoffs, and with that likely a SB appearance. Last years NFCCG and the SB the year before could have had very different outcomes if we had enough depth at WR that teams didn't know exactly who our QB was targeting on the final play of the game with all but complete certainty.

If now isn't the time to improve our depth/starters at the key positions that could get us over the hump to win a SB, I don't know when will be. We will likely lose more key players in the next year or two, as we can't resign everyone. Now is the time to make an immediate push with players on 1-3 year deals. Then, we may have to reaload in a couple years, but by then we will know something about all these young guys on the roster and can make better decisions about how they factor into the future instead of banking on them to be the answer when they are still unknown commodities and could cost us our SB window.

When we started with Whitner and Carlos there was A LOT OF DOUBT with them as well. As for brock he did start over carlos and brown late in the season and in the playoffs. Why not sooner? As is the case, one can use the same statement with all players and youngsters-thats when it came together. Not everyone comes out like gangbusters, neither did Brady or Aaron start like gang busters, they were developed. Cully is a question mark because of his injuries. However, we have gotten good results developing DBs that were late rounders. I feel with higher rated talent we will do even better. Reid is better than Goldson! He did better than him in his first year and will only get better with experience. You might argue soph jinx-that is the only thing I would worry about, him doing to much because of all the new faces just like his senior season in college.

You can't just put a player down because they are old, but the same can be said for rookies. Remember Ronnie Lott, Carlton Williamson and Eric Wright being teamed with a journeyman named Dwight Hicks? Its not how fast you start but how you finish. I think those seasons that you mentioned where we came close but no cigar, can be attributed to coaching-all of them.

Like Sean Peyton's gutsy SB play calling, if he didn't make those decisions-it can be argued the saints would not have taken home the SB trophy.
A good example of big signings that went nowhere but south are the eagles and the bucaneers-looked like they were doing something and everyone raved about them and how it made their teams one of the front runnners......yeah front to mediocrity.

Like our big booster on ESPN says they don't play the game on paper...that's why they play the game. Cause on any given sunday (monday, thursday and saturday too).....
  • buck
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Originally posted by CRABTREE:
yeah but we could've solved PR,KR,3rd WR for kicker money with Edelman or Sanders.......

That may or may not be true, but we have to remember free agency is called free not because it has no cost. It is called free agents because the players, with the exceptions of those who are franchised, are free to decide which offers to accept.

There are many possible reasons that a player chooses to accept one offer and not the other.

It entirely illogical to assume that not signing any individual is the result of team doing wrong.
[ Edited by buck on Mar 16, 2014 at 6:45 PM ]


Those who like to compare to other teams forget they fall off to. Seattle has been quiet on the FA market. They will fall off soon, because they have all those young players they have to sign or lose. So Ebb and Flow, but who manages to keep a longer flow going? That is what the niners are doing- so that they will alway be in the hunt.

In an ideal world, perseverence and loyalty win Super Bowls.

This is not a perfect world and Seattle won a Super Bowl after signing cliff avril and others via free agency.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
In an ideal world, perseverence and loyalty win Super Bowls.

This is not a perfect world and Seattle won a Super Bowl after signing cliff avril and others via free agency.

and the Eagles, Redskins, and Tampa Bay didn't. Just because you sign free agents that, on the surface appear to fill holes, doesn't translate to a Super Bowl.
  • buck
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Originally posted by eastie:
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
In an ideal world, perseverence and loyalty win Super Bowls.

This is not a perfect world and Seattle won a Super Bowl after signing cliff avril and others via free agency.

and the Eagles, Redskins, and Tampa Bay didn't. Just because you sign free agents that, on the surface appear to fill holes, doesn't translate to a Super Bowl.

The poster only said after, not because.

His statement only establishes a chronological order and not claim a causal relationship.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Great point matt about the unintended consequences of signing Revis.

Thank you good sir. Another point I just thought about that relates to that is this. Everyone used to talk about how great the Pats organization was run, if Wilfork leaves, Brady will be the only player from the last SB on the Pats. That roster has a ton of holes despite Brady taking way less $$ then he could've got and yet that roster isn't nearly as good as the one's in Seattle, SF, Denver and many other places. Three reasons they are in it every year, Brady, Coach hoody and a terrible AFC.
Originally posted by matt49er:
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Great point matt about the unintended consequences of signing Revis.

Thank you good sir. Another point I just thought about that relates to that is this. Everyone used to talk about how great the Pats organization was run, if Wilfork leaves, Brady will be the only player from the last SB on the Pats. That roster has a ton of holes despite Brady taking way less $$ then he could've got and yet that roster isn't nearly as good as the one's in Seattle, SF, Denver and many other places. Three reasons they are in it every year, Brady, Coach hoody and a terrible AFC.

Exactly. Brady is the only thing keeping that team afloat...once he's gone, they'll go back to being the Patriots of the 80's.
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Originally posted by Eli_23:
Waiting for ElephantHaley's retarded, irrational, troll-worthy, arm-chair GMish, clueless meltdown.............................

Eli, I will be the first to state I can haz the feelz about the man, but re-read the intro post. Let's debate the issue not attack the man. You're better than that, my man.
From a salary cap perspective, It makes little sense to lock up or tie up future cap dollars on potential FA busts. No way in gods green earth would I have paid the money Revis wanted/Got from New England. Same for Denver to Ware and Talib. They did get a steal in Ward's deal. I like our foundation. We have a core guys set, Kap is the future, it just is a matter of when the deal gets done, probably June, is which why we designated Rogers a june 1 cut.

We usually hit in the draft, Kap, Aldon, Reid all 1st rd picks, Tank, Lattimore with so much potential. Add in past picks like Bruce Miller who was a college DE/OLB, who has converted to FB, and had many draft guys saying "WTF?" and we proved them all wrong.

I don't want to be the same regime that signed Jonas Jennings for 35M+, or gave Nate Clements $46M over 4 yrs, in which he was an average CB. Our best FA signing in years was 2008 Justin Smith. Long time Bengal, found a home in the bay area, and yes thanks to Nolan.

We love to add low risk players, on low-end deals. Bethea's deal is essentially a 2yr deal, maybe 1yr if he doesn't work out. His 2015 base is guaranteed for only injury, if healthy, and he bombs, we cut him, and we are fine. Not saying that happens, as I have faith in Harbs and Baalke when it comes to bringing in talent.

People cry over Chris Cook. Well he isnt the worst CB, he isnt the best CB, but he didn't cost much, I believe minimum salary. He won't hurt the cap if he makes it. Maiocco is right, if he makes it awesome, if he doesn't no harm done. I don't buy into giving any player more money then they are either worth, or what the market dictates. Which leads me to believe we will choose between Mike Iupati and Michael Crabtree. the WR market is so low right now, only big deal was Decker's a litte over $7M a year deal. If we can get Crabs on a $8M a year deal, sign him to an extension asap. I wanted Sanders, but $5M a year is too much, thats almost Boldin money, and he isn't anywhere near as good as Boldin. Plus his agent is a giant D-bag.

People, you need to calm down, like George Lopez said, and Baalke should say it to, "I Got dis".