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What kind of offense do we run?

Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Those are FANTASTIC videos...I remember taking cliff notes for everyone a while back on all 7. They very much outline the foundation of a true WCO.

I love that video, for some reason whenever I think of it the first thing that comes to mind is his instructions on long steps for in breaking routes and quick step for out cutting routes. Nothing better than seeing the master with his star pupil.

So true...every step was tied to the primary WR route, then the second, then the third and finally, the check down. It was perfectly orchestrated. As a result, I developed a tremendous respect for the 3-4 and the Giants back in the day as they were able to devise a scheme that disrupted the timing of these routes and forced us to go to our secondary/ad lib plays more.
Originally posted by NCommand:
So true...every step was tied to the primary WR route, then the second, then the third and finally, the check down. It was perfectly orchestrated. As a result, I developed a tremendous respect for the 3-4 and the Giants back in the day as they were able to devise a scheme that disrupted the timing of these routes and forced us to go to our secondary/ad lib plays more.

I think that steve young article summed it up perfectly when he basically said the stuff they did to brent jones was borderline criminal So in to today's nfl maybe some of it would be called unless of course it was against Seattle in Seattle or you know 5 yard away in Super Bowl on the last play. Along with the giants, I always remember New Orleans in the super dome being really loud and tough and I remember at least for '96 dom capers panther d had our number.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Those are FANTASTIC videos...I remember taking cliff notes for everyone a while back on all 7. They very much outline the foundation of a true WCO.

I love that video, for some reason whenever I think of it the first thing that comes to mind is his instructions on long steps for in breaking routes and quick step for out cutting routes. Nothing better than seeing the master with his star pupil.

So true...every step was tied to the primary WR route, then the second, then the third and finally, the check down. It was perfectly orchestrated. As a result, I developed a tremendous respect for the 3-4 and the Giants back in the day as they were able to devise a scheme that disrupted the timing of these routes and forced us to go to our secondary/ad lib plays more.

Yup, teams would try to bump and run to disrupt the timing. When that don't work, because Rice and Taylor would on the release, teams backed off to play zone like Young mentioned. The same rhythm drop backs that helped the QB time his throws also helped a zone defender know when the throw was coming as he watched the QB.
Originally posted by Niners816:
I think what we were doing in 2011 can be classifed as a WCO. The difference as I see it tho is the true WCO was passing to set up the run. Especially early in games, however one of the biggest misnomers of the true WCO is that it's a pure passing offense. In fact every bill walsh championship team had the same pass/rush ratio of 48% pass and 52% run. In fact the '89 squad also had a ratio of 49/51. The 1994 team was our only championships team with more pass than run and even in that case it was still 51/49.

What the true WCO was is highly efficient passing and in my view that is what we lack currently. Since kap took over the passing game seems to be a showcase of how hard he can throw. My biggest complaint is that we don't make it easy on him. He rarely gets more than one true WR option, so essentially his progression is #1 look or run. Plain and simple our pass game needs more nuance.


The reason it seem so balance was because one we got the lead the niners would run the ball more to keep the ball away from the opposing teams offense and rest the D as well as eat up the clock. However, people don't see is that Walsh would run you to death if he thought that was your weekness that week.

That is the difference in JH/Roman and Walsh. They don't often enough do that tweek. Like others I would like to see the fullback/runnning back dump and screen combined with QB pistol option, if they over react Kaep can take off if not dump it off. This infuriates me. I think they could have done so much more in those three years.
[ Edited by WildBill on Mar 2, 2014 at 1:36 AM ]
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by Niners816:
I think what we were doing in 2011 can be classifed as a WCO. The difference as I see it tho is the true WCO was passing to set up the run. Especially early in games, however one of the biggest misnomers of the true WCO is that it's a pure passing offense. In fact every bill walsh championship team had the same pass/rush ratio of 48% pass and 52% run. In fact the '89 squad also had a ratio of 49/51. The 1994 team was our only championships team with more pass than run and even in that case it was still 51/49.

What the true WCO was is highly efficient passing and in my view that is what we lack currently. Since kap took over the passing game seems to be a showcase of how hard he can throw. My biggest complaint is that we don't make it easy on him. He rarely gets more than one true WR option, so essentially his progression is #1 look or run. Plain and simple our pass game needs more nuance.


The reason it seem so balance was because one we got the lead the niners would run the ball more to keep the ball away from the opposing teams offense and rest the D as well as eat up the clock. However, people don't see is that Walsh would run you to death if he thought that was your weekness that week.

That is the difference in JH/Roman and Walsh. They don't often enough do that tweek. Like others I would like to see the fullback/runnning back dump and screen combined with QB pistol option, if they over react Kaep can take off if not dump it off. This infuriates me. I think they could have done so much more in those three years.

Boy this is a fantastic point. Agreed, the standard game plan was to short pass to set up ball control, leads in the first half and then run more in the second half. But the true beauty of the WCO was the flexibility and the genius behind BW was his ability to use this offense to attack weaknesses right out of the gate. This is something I rarely see in our game plans today and it's even more salient against quality defenses. In fact, when we do see a successful play, we often times never go back to it. Roman is way too concerned about sticking to his average game plans and following the script ("we didn't get back to it") rather than exploiting weaknesses and adjusting in-game.
[ Edited by NCommand on Mar 2, 2014 at 7:27 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by Niners816:
I think what we were doing in 2011 can be classifed as a WCO. The difference as I see it tho is the true WCO was passing to set up the run. Especially early in games, however one of the biggest misnomers of the true WCO is that it's a pure passing offense. In fact every bill walsh championship team had the same pass/rush ratio of 48% pass and 52% run. In fact the '89 squad also had a ratio of 49/51. The 1994 team was our only championships team with more pass than run and even in that case it was still 51/49.

What the true WCO was is highly efficient passing and in my view that is what we lack currently. Since kap took over the passing game seems to be a showcase of how hard he can throw. My biggest complaint is that we don't make it easy on him. He rarely gets more than one true WR option, so essentially his progression is #1 look or run. Plain and simple our pass game needs more nuance.


The reason it seem so balance was because one we got the lead the niners would run the ball more to keep the ball away from the opposing teams offense and rest the D as well as eat up the clock. However, people don't see is that Walsh would run you to death if he thought that was your weekness that week.

That is the difference in JH/Roman and Walsh. They don't often enough do that tweek. Like others I would like to see the fullback/runnning back dump and screen combined with QB pistol option, if they over react Kaep can take off if not dump it off. This infuriates me. I think they could have done so much more in those three years.

Boy this is a fantastic point. Agreed, the standard game plan was to short pass to set up ball control, leads in the first half and then run more in the second half. But the true beauty of the WCO was the flexibility and the genius behind BW was his ability to use this offense to attack weaknesses right out of the gate. This is something I rarely see in our game plans today and it's even more salient against quality defenses. In fact, when we do see a successful play, we often times never go back to it. Roman is way too concerned about sticking to his average game plans and following the script ("we didn't get back to it") rather than exploiting weaknesses and adjusting in-game.

You bring up an excellent point NC. Like you said, if we have a successful play we never go back to it. Case in point, Kaep's first pass in the NFC title game against Seattle; the short route to Vance McDonald. He was wide open with nothing but green grass in front of him, gain of 15 yards. We should've kept exploiting that until Seatlle made the adjustment to stop it. What did we do? We made it as easy as possible for Seattle to defend our offense. Of course after we get that 10 point lead, we back off and let Seattle get going instead of keeping them down.
Originally posted by K1ngCoopa24:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by Niners816:
I think what we were doing in 2011 can be classifed as a WCO. The difference as I see it tho is the true WCO was passing to set up the run. Especially early in games, however one of the biggest misnomers of the true WCO is that it's a pure passing offense. In fact every bill walsh championship team had the same pass/rush ratio of 48% pass and 52% run. In fact the '89 squad also had a ratio of 49/51. The 1994 team was our only championships team with more pass than run and even in that case it was still 51/49.

What the true WCO was is highly efficient passing and in my view that is what we lack currently. Since kap took over the passing game seems to be a showcase of how hard he can throw. My biggest complaint is that we don't make it easy on him. He rarely gets more than one true WR option, so essentially his progression is #1 look or run. Plain and simple our pass game needs more nuance.


The reason it seem so balance was because one we got the lead the niners would run the ball more to keep the ball away from the opposing teams offense and rest the D as well as eat up the clock. However, people don't see is that Walsh would run you to death if he thought that was your weekness that week.

That is the difference in JH/Roman and Walsh. They don't often enough do that tweek. Like others I would like to see the fullback/runnning back dump and screen combined with QB pistol option, if they over react Kaep can take off if not dump it off. This infuriates me. I think they could have done so much more in those three years.

Boy this is a fantastic point. Agreed, the standard game plan was to short pass to set up ball control, leads in the first half and then run more in the second half. But the true beauty of the WCO was the flexibility and the genius behind BW was his ability to use this offense to attack weaknesses right out of the gate. This is something I rarely see in our game plans today and it's even more salient against quality defenses. In fact, when we do see a successful play, we often times never go back to it. Roman is way too concerned about sticking to his average game plans and following the script ("we didn't get back to it") rather than exploiting weaknesses and adjusting in-game.

You bring up an excellent point NC. Like you said, if we have a successful play we never go back to it. Case in point, Kaep's first pass in the NFC title game against Seattle; the short route to Vance McDonald. He was wide open with nothing but green grass in front of him, gain of 15 yards. We should've kept exploiting that until Seatlle made the adjustment to stop it. What did we do? We made it as easy as possible for Seattle to defend our offense. Of course after we get that 10 point lead, we back off and let Seattle get going instead of keeping them down.

These two points are THE difference between two equally talented teams. One took advantage of our weakness: 1) our poor deeper coverage abilities (one scramble and off sides) 2) wear down against bigger, physical backs and 3) only focus on coverage on the edges and only on VD, Crabtree and Boldin (ignore all else completely)

Our game plan? I guess to attack Seattle on the edges with CK's legs?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by K1ngCoopa24:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by WildBill:
Originally posted by Niners816:
I think what we were doing in 2011 can be classifed as a WCO. The difference as I see it tho is the true WCO was passing to set up the run. Especially early in games, however one of the biggest misnomers of the true WCO is that it's a pure passing offense. In fact every bill walsh championship team had the same pass/rush ratio of 48% pass and 52% run. In fact the '89 squad also had a ratio of 49/51. The 1994 team was our only championships team with more pass than run and even in that case it was still 51/49.

What the true WCO was is highly efficient passing and in my view that is what we lack currently. Since kap took over the passing game seems to be a showcase of how hard he can throw. My biggest complaint is that we don't make it easy on him. He rarely gets more than one true WR option, so essentially his progression is #1 look or run. Plain and simple our pass game needs more nuance.


The reason it seem so balance was because one we got the lead the niners would run the ball more to keep the ball away from the opposing teams offense and rest the D as well as eat up the clock. However, people don't see is that Walsh would run you to death if he thought that was your weekness that week.

That is the difference in JH/Roman and Walsh. They don't often enough do that tweek. Like others I would like to see the fullback/runnning back dump and screen combined with QB pistol option, if they over react Kaep can take off if not dump it off. This infuriates me. I think they could have done so much more in those three years.

Boy this is a fantastic point. Agreed, the standard game plan was to short pass to set up ball control, leads in the first half and then run more in the second half. But the true beauty of the WCO was the flexibility and the genius behind BW was his ability to use this offense to attack weaknesses right out of the gate. This is something I rarely see in our game plans today and it's even more salient against quality defenses. In fact, when we do see a successful play, we often times never go back to it. Roman is way too concerned about sticking to his average game plans and following the script ("we didn't get back to it") rather than exploiting weaknesses and adjusting in-game.

You bring up an excellent point NC. Like you said, if we have a successful play we never go back to it. Case in point, Kaep's first pass in the NFC title game against Seattle; the short route to Vance McDonald. He was wide open with nothing but green grass in front of him, gain of 15 yards. We should've kept exploiting that until Seatlle made the adjustment to stop it. What did we do? We made it as easy as possible for Seattle to defend our offense. Of course after we get that 10 point lead, we back off and let Seattle get going instead of keeping them down.

These two points are THE difference between two equally talented teams. One took advantage of our weakness: 1) our poor deeper coverage abilities (one scramble and off sides) 2) wear down against bigger, physical backs and 3) only focus on coverage on the edges and only on VD, Crabtree and Boldin (ignore all else completely)

Our game plan? I guess to attack Seattle on the edges with CK's legs?

Indeed, we are in absolute agreement. Did Patton get targeted even once? We know Vance never even got looked at a second time after that first catch of his. Seattle knew we wouldn't attack the middle of the field, and we paid for it dearly. It's not only against Seattle either, we make it as easy as possible for any defense. Some may not notice, because most of the time our personnel is just better than the opposition, but against quality defenses is when we notice how easy we make it to defend our offense. Defenses know the ball will only be thrown to 3 people on a regular basis, Crabtree, Boldin, and Davis. They cover those 3 guys and they know 1 of 2 things will happen, Kaep tries to force it to them, or he takes off running.

It's silly and ridiculous how easy we take it on defenses. That has to stop if we want to win the SB 49. Harbaugh needs to get over his sportsmanship about not embarrassing teams and keep the pedal to the floor until the clock is triple zeros. These are grown men, you aren't supposed to care if you beat them by 10 or 30 points. I hate that about our coaching philosophy. Imagine us in that SB against the broncos, Harbaugh would've stopped throwing the ball when we were up by 20 points and let the Broncos right into the game. What did Carrol and his team do? They beat the living piss out of them and never let them get up. We need to borrow some of the mentality.
[ Edited by K1ngCoopa24 on Mar 2, 2014 at 8:41 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Boy this is a fantastic point. Agreed, the standard game plan was to short pass to set up ball control, leads in the first half and then run more in the second half. But the true beauty of the WCO was the flexibility and the genius behind BW was his ability to use this offense to attack weaknesses right out of the gate. This is something I rarely see in our game plans today and it's even more salient against quality defenses. In fact, when we do see a successful play, we often times never go back to it. Roman is way too concerned about sticking to his average game plans and following the script ("we didn't get back to it") rather than exploiting weaknesses and adjusting in-game.

Totally agree...back in the day, if they were killing a team with "flanker drive", "spot" or any of the other main WCO concepts you would see a similar play 10-15 types game. They would just wrap it up in different formations. This is how you would get Rice with 15+ receptions. As has been mentions in this thread, if you are not employing this strategy you in fact are making it easy on the opposing. Defense.
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Boy this is a fantastic point. Agreed, the standard game plan was to short pass to set up ball control, leads in the first half and then run more in the second half. But the true beauty of the WCO was the flexibility and the genius behind BW was his ability to use this offense to attack weaknesses right out of the gate. This is something I rarely see in our game plans today and it's even more salient against quality defenses. In fact, when we do see a successful play, we often times never go back to it. Roman is way too concerned about sticking to his average game plans and following the script ("we didn't get back to it") rather than exploiting weaknesses and adjusting in-game.

Totally agree...back in the day, if they were killing a team with "flanker drive", "spot" or any of the other main WCO concepts you would see a similar play 10-15 types game. They would just wrap it up in different formations. This is how you would get Rice with 15+ receptions. As has been mentions in this thread, if you are not employing this strategy you in fact are making it easy on the opposing. Defense.

Amen!
on of the best
Originally posted by Marvin49:
The 49ers run a WCO.

Its more than just a short passing offense. Its in the terminology. Its in the way plays are called. Its in the way they practice. Its in the way the offense is installed.

Harbaugh spoke quite a bit with Bill Walsh at Stanford.

The 49ers run more than they pass, but that has nothing to do with the offensive system. That has to do with the plays that are called.

Nothing is pure WCO. It doesn't exist. There is stuff pulled from all over the place. From the Shotgun (Walsh never used it), the Pistol (didn't exist), the I or the offset I (Walsh only ever ran Pro Set, IE the backs lines up beside each other, not one behind the other), or any of the miriad of run plays the Niners use (Whams, Counters, etc)...the 49ers have have a ton of plays and formations not used in the WCO Walsh created, but at it's core its a WCO.

If you don't believe me, listen to Harbaugh himself...


I agree with all of the above, but I think the issue many have is the way the passing plays are called. Certain key things that we are used to seeing with the WCO that don't seem to exist now. Scripting plays to get a feel for how the defense will responded to certain things. Using everyone as a potential receiver, running backs, TEs, and receivers. Forcing the defenses to defend every inch of the field. We just don't seem to do those things well. I just think with our personnel we can create some more favorable match ups and take advantage of the looks the defense gives us. Some of this is on the coaching staff. Some of this is on the QB.
Let's take a look at our real offense...whatever the heck it is @ full strength:

Kaepernick in his first 11 regular-season games in 2013 (without Crabtree): 156 of 275 (56.7), 2,037 yards (185.2 per game), 14 TD, 7 INT (86.6 rating)
Kaepernick in 8 games with Crabtree and Anquan Boldin (including playoffs): 132 of 233 (56.7), 1,736 yards (217.0 per game), 10 TD, 4 INT (91.3 rating)

http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2014/03/03/offensive-weapons-could-provide-kaepernick-with-franchise-qb-season/


So what should we expect for this offense (and CK) next year?

2014 Projection Totals (Passing Game): Team Leaders
Kaepernick will have a completion percentage of 56.7 & and pass for an average of 217 yards a game (3,487 for the year) and throw for 20 TD's and 8 INT's and have a QB rating of 91.3.
Boldin will average 6.1 catches a game for an average of 85 yards a game (1,364 for the year)
Crabtree will average 4.25 catches a game for an average of 61 yards a game (976 for the year)
Davis will average 2.4 catches a game for an average of 35 yards a game (562 for the year)
Miller will be the 3rd leading receiver on the team.

FYI: Davis' numbers really fell off once Crabtree came back. These were his last 8 games in yards (82, 21, 79, 0, 45, 37, 1, 16).
[ Edited by NCommand on Mar 3, 2014 at 3:31 PM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Let's take a look at our real offense...whatever the heck it is @ full strength:

Kaepernick in his first 11 regular-season games in 2013 (without Crabtree): 156 of 275 (56.7), 2,037 yards (185.2 per game), 14 TD, 7 INT (86.6 rating)
Kaepernick in 8 games with Crabtree and Anquan Boldin (including playoffs): 132 of 233 (56.7), 1,736 yards (217.0 per game), 10 TD, 4 INT (91.3 rating)

http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2014/03/03/offensive-weapons-could-provide-kaepernick-with-franchise-qb-season/


So what should we expect for this offense (and CK) next year?

2014 Projection Totals (Passing Game): Team Leaders
Kaepernick will have a completion percentage of 56.7 & and pass for an average of 217 yards a game (3,487 for the year) and throw for 20 TD's and 8 INT's and have a QB rating of 91.3.
Boldin will average 6.1 catches a game for an average of 85 yards a game (1,364 for the year)
Crabtree will average 4.25 catches a game for an average of 61 yards a game (976 for the year)
Davis will average 2.4 catches a game for an average of 35 yards a game (562 for the year)
Miller will be the 3rd leading receiver on the team.

FYI: Davis' numbers really fell off once Crabtree came back. These were his last 8 games in yards (82, 21, 79, 0, 45, 37, 1, 16).

If those projections for davis become true then we truly failed to utilize a great weapon
Here is Harbaugh's Head coaching passing profile:

2004 SD 60.2% Comp 25Td 6Int
2005 SD 70.1% Comp 38Td 8Int
2006 SD 66.3% Comp 34Td 5Int
2007 STAN 55.5% Comp 12Td 12Int
2008 STAN 57.9% Comp 11Td 15Int
2009 STAN 56.3% Comp 14Td 6Int
2010 STAN 70.7% Comp 32Td 8Int
2011 SF 61.4% Comp 17Td 5Int
2012 SF 66.3% Comp 23Td 8Int
2013 SF 58.5% Comp 21Td 8Int

Outside of a couple of undermanned Stanford teams, Harbaugh's team usually do a great job of limiting turnovers. I guess you could argue that limiting attempts naturally leads to this. However, having a 2/1 TD/Int or in some cases a 3+/1 TD/Int is no small feat. I remember it was mentioned earlier in this thread how his qb's usually have a bump in comp % from first FULL year to second. These numbers illustrate just that, Luck went for 56-70, Smith went from 61-70 (before the switch). Lets just hope Kaep has a similar result. If he can start hitting at a 63-64% clip, I have little doubt this passing attack can start to approach that 225-240 ypg.