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What kind of offense do we run?

Originally posted by Niners816:
Now I hate Seattle just as much as I assume all you guys do, but I really like the why they incorperate their read option game. They basically go trips one side with TE on the opposite. The back is on the TE side, I love how this give the QB a pretty easy option read and Wilson runs it really well.

Now I would like the Niners to use a similar approach to their option game and pretty much scrap the pistol. Now to tie this back to the WCO, I don't see why the Niners couldn't use a similar formation but bunch the Wideouts and run at horizonal and vertical stretch concept like spot on the bunch side. The formation still gives you the ability to use the option game and basically this series of plays can become a check with me. I think something like this could work well against have press teams cause of the bunch and if you option out of this form it make the defense alert for that.

Are you referring to the new age concept of packaged plays? This is Chip Kelly's offense in a nutshell. It's an offensive style that the league's defenses is slowly having to adapt to. It preys on the defense's inability to cover everything at the same time, while giving the QB very simple reads by isolating a particular defender. This article is the most straight forward explanation I can find on the web (there's a lot). It's the read option on steroids. I read around and the Packers, Bills, Bears, Lions, Broncos, and Cowboys all dabble with this concept.
^^^ You two are fantastic!
Loved the WCO. But it was one thing when defenses had no answer for it, quite another when defenses have learned to contain it quite handily for the past 30 years. There is a reason it has lost popularity in being utilized.
Originally posted by thl408:
Are you referring to the new age concept of packaged plays? This is Chip Kelly's offense in a nutshell. It's an offensive style that the league's defenses is slowly having to adapt to. It preys on the defense's inability to cover everything at the same time, while giving the QB very simple reads by isolating a particular defender. This article is the most straight forward explanation I can find on the web (there's a lot). It's the read option on steroids. I read around and the Packers, Bills, Bears, Lions, Broncos, and Cowboys all dabble with this concept.

In regards to our option game I prefer the package approach as opposed to the pistol that we did last year and this year. However I realize the pistol is just a formation and it not so much an offense per se. I just feel the pistol time to shine faded with the offseason following the 2012 season at least for us. If we are bound and determine to us our qb in an option game I would much rather us gun sets with trips opposite of TE sets. I feel the play action pass game is better from these sets as opposed to the pistol. In my view for the niners the pistol really became a non play because defense just blew up the mesh point and didn't respect the run, so we didn't get that huge void between lbs and safeties that we did down the stretch in 2012.

Since I know I couldn't use joes WCO of the 80s or Steve's WCO of the 90s, if I was allowed to design our offense I would probably go with a pro spread. In that spread look I would rely heavily on all the WCO staple concepts. Now apart of my attack would be a power run scheme and the option game mentioned above. However the philosophy would be pure walsh in that it would be pass to set up the run and pass to get a lead and ice the game with the run game.

I feel we try to do all this currently, we just do it backwards. As NCommand calls it anti-WCO.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Feb 27, 2014 at 3:01 PM ]
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by NCommand:
And with Gore and esp. Lattimore, Hunter and James, these check-downs are going to going for some serious yards and TD's. And like you said, nobody wants to tackle Miller...nor McDonald in the open field.

Just for illustration here is our receptions by backs the last three years:
2011 - 45
2012 - 51
2013 - 48

Now here is the 1998 team (which I consider our last great WCO) and all of our title teams:
1981 - 127
1984 - 103
1988 - 118
1989 - 140
1994 - 103
1998 - 92

As I recall by 98 we had adopted more of a 3wr attack, but I that getting the backs involved in that quantity is more that doable.

Oh come on...we throw the ball to our backs.

Bruce Miller, suprisingly (not), was third on the team with 25 receptions for 243 yards.

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/kilgore-extended-miller-and-hunter-could-be-next
Originally posted by NCommand:
Oh come on...we throw the ball to our backs.

Bruce Miller, suprisingly (not), was third on the team with 25 receptions for 243 yards.

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/kilgore-extended-miller-and-hunter-could-be-next

To put it in perspective, New Orleans third leading receiver had 75 catches and Denver's had 73.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Feb 27, 2014 at 4:11 PM ]
Originally posted by OldJoe:
Loved the WCO. But it was one thing when defenses had no answer for it, quite another when defenses have learned to contain it quite handily for the past 30 years. There is a reason it has lost popularity in being utilized.

I would agree that the WCO in its orginal form and formation (split,near, far etc..)would be hard to run as is in today's nfl. But as an organization right down to not using shot gun forms ran it from 1979-2002. The basic concepts are still very much sound And run today by many teams in the league today. They just package them in different formations.
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by OldJoe:
Loved the WCO. But it was one thing when defenses had no answer for it, quite another when defenses have learned to contain it quite handily for the past 30 years. There is a reason it has lost popularity in being utilized.

I would agree that the WCO in its orginal form and formation (split,near, far etc..)would be hard to run as is in today's nfl. But as an organization right down to not using shot gun forms ran it from 1979-2002. The basic concepts are still very much sound And run today by many teams in the league today. They just package them in different formations.

Yeah, GB doesn't seem to have any problems running it in today's game. No doubt though that physical, tough defenses like the 3-4, Seattle, etc. can throw off the timing of passing attempts like we saw in the Superbowl with Denver and the Giants used to be our kryponite as a result.

The problem is, we don't have a "foundation" of anything here...an ID. The beauty of the WCO is that it's foundation can be built upon to adapt to any situation or defensive adjustments. We, clearly, don't have that ability with this offense.

Until Harbaugh turns this offense over to a real offensive system and experienced OC, I have zero faith we can win a Superbowl on personnel alone. There is just no way around it.
the WCO is DEAD ...back in the day it was used to set up the run with the pass, and using RB's as receivers out of the backfield to find mismatches against slower defenders , but these days LB's are so damn fast , it's difficult to rely on YAC when just about every defense has lightning quick LB's
Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
the WCO is DEAD ...back in the day it was used to set up the run with the pass, and using RB's as receivers out of the backfield to find mismatches against slower defenders , but these days LB's are so damn fast , it's difficult to rely on YAC when just about every defense has lightning quick LB's

Don't buy that for a second! Jamaal Charles, Reggie Bush, Darren Sproles, etc.

In fact, if you watch OUR offense...seriously, pick any gif, when our own Gore, Hunter, James, Miller or even McDonald delay their routes and check out of the back field as an outlet for CK, these guys are WIDE OPEN with nothing but real estate in front of them. In fact, the slowest one in this group, Miller was 3rd on our team in receptions. The issue is that we don't utilize them. But they are there esp. in the middle of the field behind the DL. No doubt.
[ Edited by NCommand on Feb 28, 2014 at 9:10 AM ]
West Coast offense still works but you have to have guys that fit the system, WRs who can break a tackle and make catches over the middle. You need backs that know how to run a route and set up a defender and read a coverage. You also need a QB with a good 3 step drop boom ball out, read 1 read 2 read 3 then run or improvise. On run plays, we need to run more WHAM plays up the middle.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
the WCO is DEAD ...back in the day it was used to set up the run with the pass, and using RB's as receivers out of the backfield to find mismatches against slower defenders , but these days LB's are so damn fast , it's difficult to rely on YAC when just about every defense has lightning quick LB's

Don't buy that for a second! Jamaal Charles, Reggie Bush, Darren Sproles, etc.

In fact, if you watch OUR offense...seriously, pick any gif, when our own Gore, Hunter, James, Miller or even McDonald delay their routes and check out of the back field as an outlet for CK, these guys are WIDE OPEN with nothing but real estate in front of them. In fact, the slowest one in this group, Miller was 3rd on our team in receptions. The issue is that we don't utilize them. But they are there esp. in the middle of the field behind the DL. No doubt.


yeah I'd like to see our backs get more passes thrown their way ...I remember our system was consistent passing to RB's out of the backfield, even Marc Logan did some damage as a receiver back then
Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
the WCO is DEAD ...back in the day it was used to set up the run with the pass, and using RB's as receivers out of the backfield to find mismatches against slower defenders , but these days LB's are so damn fast , it's difficult to rely on YAC when just about every defense has lightning quick LB's

Don't buy that for a second! Jamaal Charles, Reggie Bush, Darren Sproles, etc.

In fact, if you watch OUR offense...seriously, pick any gif, when our own Gore, Hunter, James, Miller or even McDonald delay their routes and check out of the back field as an outlet for CK, these guys are WIDE OPEN with nothing but real estate in front of them. In fact, the slowest one in this group, Miller was 3rd on our team in receptions. The issue is that we don't utilize them. But they are there esp. in the middle of the field behind the DL. No doubt.


yeah I'd like to see our backs get more passes thrown their way ...I remember our system was consistent passing to RB's out of the backfield, even Marc Logan did some damage as a receiver back then

It's the easiest pass in the game for a QB. The outlet is a mere 5-7 yards away from you and the pass itself dictates where you want the RB to go for added RAC. Montana and Young were masters at this short touch pass "leading" the back to the most open field. Simple. Plus it saves CK's legs and the probabilty he might get injured eventually if he continues with his one-read and run style. Like I said in a previous post, if CK added just this one element alone, we'd probably be unstoppable. First, look to your AR1, 2 or primary read in a PS passing play...if not there under 3 seconds, quickly look to your check down and get rid of it. Done. We don't utilize VD or McDonald as TE safety nets in finding the soft zones of the defenses so he should focus on just this one check-down aspect. It can make all the difference in the world.
[ Edited by NCommand on Feb 28, 2014 at 9:20 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NeeJ49er:
the WCO is DEAD ...back in the day it was used to set up the run with the pass, and using RB's as receivers out of the backfield to find mismatches against slower defenders , but these days LB's are so damn fast , it's difficult to rely on YAC when just about every defense has lightning quick LB's

Don't buy that for a second! Jamaal Charles, Reggie Bush, Darren Sproles, etc.

In fact, if you watch OUR offense...seriously, pick any gif, when our own Gore, Hunter, James, Miller or even McDonald delay their routes and check out of the back field as an outlet for CK, these guys are WIDE OPEN with nothing but real estate in front of them. In fact, the slowest one in this group, Miller was 3rd on our team in receptions. The issue is that we don't utilize them. But they are there esp. in the middle of the field behind the DL. No doubt.


yeah I'd like to see our backs get more passes thrown their way ...I remember our system was consistent passing to RB's out of the backfield, even Marc Logan did some damage as a receiver back then

It's the easiest pass in the game for a QB. The outlet is a mere 5-7 yards away from you and the pass itself dictates where you want to the RB to go for added RAC. Montana and Young were masters at this short touch pass "leading" the back to the open field. Simple. Plus it saves CK's legs and the probabilty he might get injured eventually. Like I said in a previous post, if CK added just this one element, we'd be unstoppable. First, look to your AR1, 2 or primary read in a PS passing play...if not there, quickly look to your check down and get rid of it. Done. We don't utilize VD or McDonald as TE safety nets in finding the soft zones of the defenses so he should focus on just this one aspect. It can make all the difference in the world.

totally agree
The 49ers run a WCO.

Its more than just a short passing offense. Its in the terminology. Its in the way plays are called. Its in the way they practice. Its in the way the offense is installed.

Harbaugh spoke quite a bit with Bill Walsh at Stanford.

The 49ers run more than they pass, but that has nothing to do with the offensive system. That has to do with the plays that are called.

Nothing is pure WCO. It doesn't exist. There is stuff pulled from all over the place. From the Shotgun (Walsh never used it), the Pistol (didn't exist), the I or the offset I (Walsh only ever ran Pro Set, IE the backs lines up beside each other, not one behind the other), or any of the miriad of run plays the Niners use (Whams, Counters, etc)...the 49ers have have a ton of plays and formations not used in the WCO Walsh created, but at it's core its a WCO.

If you don't believe me, listen to Harbaugh himself...

[ Edited by Marvin49 on Feb 28, 2014 at 9:20 AM ]