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What kind of offense do we run?

Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by thl408:
Cool article written by the Man himself.

"Ball-Control Passing Don't isolate throwing the forward pass to a given down and distance. If you are going to throw the ball, you must be willing to throw on first down, not a token pass hoping for the best, but a pass that is designed to get you a certain amount of yardage."


In Scoring Territory
"I have seen many teams march the ball beautifully, but right around the 15-yard line, they are already warming up their placekicker, because right at that point defenses change, the field they can operate in changes, and suddenly their basic offense goes all to pieces.

My contention is that if we are on their 25, we're going for the end zone. Failing at that, we will kick a field goal. In an evenly matched game, I don't want to try to take the ball from their 25 to the goal line by trying to smash it through people, because three out of four times, you won't make it. Unless you are superior. Of course, if you are vastly superior it makes very little difference how you do it."


That is a great article. Those three plays diagramed are the Walsh offense at its core. If you look at them they all have the same characteristics of have a primary read, secondary read and a check down. As mentioned earlier in this thread, we sorely lack the check down element to our current offense. It was no mistake in our heyday that rathman would catch 75 balls as a FB. I know the FB is a dying position in he nfl, but we still carry one and usually defender hate tackling a big bruiser coming out of the back field. Check downs keeps pressure on the defense, keeps the offense ahead of the sticks and in kaps case could help get that comp % up into that 60-65% range.

And with Gore and esp. Lattimore, Hunter and James, these check-downs are going to going for some serious yards and TD's. And like you said, nobody wants to tackle Miller...nor McDonald in the open field.
Originally posted by Niners816:
That is a great article. Those three plays diagramed are the Walsh offense at its core. If you look at them they all have the same characteristics of have a primary read, secondary read and a check down. As mentioned earlier in this thread, we sorely lack the check down element to our current offense. It was no mistake in our heyday that rathman would catch 75 balls as a FB. I know the FB is a dying position in he nfl, but we still carry one and usually defender hate tackling a big bruiser coming out of the back field. Check downs keeps pressure on the defense, keeps the offense ahead of the sticks and in kaps case could help get that comp % up into that 60-65% range.

Yeah, in the diagrams (especially Figure 3) you can see the patterns on the strong side of the formation always form a triangle (oblique) stretch, which is a staple of Walsh's plays. It's basically a vertical and horizontal stretch in the same area of the field. Also cool is that the QB's progressions are listed (underlined numbers). However, this is very different from what the 49ers run as Walsh's progression read plays differ from Kap's coverage read plays (WRATHman44 and I discussed this a bit in the "Jon Baldwin playing his last game" thread).

As for checkdowns, I think the option to checkdown is there for Kap to use, he just doesn't use them. When watching the pass plays for the 49ers this season, there is always a RB performing a check release, but Kap rarely ever looks to it. He'd rather extend the play while looking downfield, then scramble.

Hypothetical, but if Kap just throws two checkdowns a game, his completion% would go from 58% to 66%. I'm not sure if that logically makes any sense, but what I did was add 32 (2 x 16) completions to his total for this season. I do know that as the play is extended from Kap's scrambling, the LBs start to drop deeper into their zones and the check release is there for about a 4-7 yard gain.
Originally posted by NCommand:
And with Gore and esp. Lattimore, Hunter and James, these check-downs are going to going for some serious yards and TD's. And like you said, nobody wants to tackle Miller...nor McDonald in the open field.

Just for illustration here is our receptions by backs the last three years:
2011 - 45
2012 - 51
2013 - 48

Now here is the 1998 team (which I consider our last great WCO) and all of our title teams:
1981 - 127
1984 - 103
1988 - 118
1989 - 140
1994 - 103
1998 - 92

As I recall by 98 we had adopted more of a 3wr attack, but I that getting the backs involved in that quantity is more that doable.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Feb 27, 2014 at 1:01 PM ]
Originally posted by thl408:
Yeah, in the diagrams (especially Figure 3) you can see the patterns on the strong side of the formation always form a triangle (oblique) stretch, which is a staple of Walsh's plays. It's basically a vertical and horizontal stretch in the same area of the field. Also cool is that the QB's progressions are listed (underlined numbers). However, this is very different from what the 49ers run as Walsh's progression read plays differ from Kap's coverage read plays (WRATHman44 and I discussed this a bit in the "Jon Baldwin playing his last game" thread).

As for checkdowns, I think the option to checkdown is there for Kap to use, he just doesn't use them. When watching the pass plays for the 49ers this season, there is always a RB performing a check release, but Kap rarely ever looks to it. He'd rather extend the play while looking downfield, then scramble.

Hypothetical, but if Kap just throws two checkdowns a game, his completion% would go from 58% to 66%. I'm not sure if that logically makes any sense, but what I did was add 32 (2 x 16) completions to his total for this season. I do know that as the play is extended from Kap's scrambling, the LBs start to drop deeper into their zones and the check release is there for about a 4-7 yard gain.

The triangle really is the secret of the whole offense. That is what allowed the Niners to hit at a completion % way above league average.

Speaking of the trinangle the one play in my mind that really illustrates it is the Z-Spot or Spot plays




This play was huge for the Niners especially with Shanahan. Along with Flanker Drive it has always been my favorite quenesstial WCO play.
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by thl408:
Yeah, in the diagrams (especially Figure 3) you can see the patterns on the strong side of the formation always form a triangle (oblique) stretch, which is a staple of Walsh's plays. It's basically a vertical and horizontal stretch in the same area of the field. Also cool is that the QB's progressions are listed (underlined numbers). However, this is very different from what the 49ers run as Walsh's progression read plays differ from Kap's coverage read plays (WRATHman44 and I discussed this a bit in the "Jon Baldwin playing his last game" thread).

As for checkdowns, I think the option to checkdown is there for Kap to use, he just doesn't use them. When watching the pass plays for the 49ers this season, there is always a RB performing a check release, but Kap rarely ever looks to it. He'd rather extend the play while looking downfield, then scramble.

Hypothetical, but if Kap just throws two checkdowns a game, his completion% would go from 58% to 66%. I'm not sure if that logically makes any sense, but what I did was add 32 (2 x 16) completions to his total for this season. I do know that as the play is extended from Kap's scrambling, the LBs start to drop deeper into their zones and the check release is there for about a 4-7 yard gain.

The triangle really is the secret of the whole offense. That is what allowed the Niners to hit at a completion % way above league average.

Speaking of the trinangle the one play in my mind that really illustrates it is the Z-Spot or Spot plays




This play was huge for the Niners especially with Shanahan. Along with Flanker Drive it has always been my favorite quenesstial WCO play.

Funny you mention Shanahan. Steve Young and the 49ers were at their best when Shanahan was the OC. Something to think about.
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by NCommand:
And with Gore and esp. Lattimore, Hunter and James, these check-downs are going to going for some serious yards and TD's. And like you said, nobody wants to tackle Miller...nor McDonald in the open field.

Just for illustration here is our receptions by hb the last three years:
2011 - 45
2012 - 51
2013 - 48

Now here is the 1998 team (which I consider our last great WCO) and all of our title teams:
1981 - 127
1984 - 103
1988 - 118
1989 - 140
1994 - 103
1998 - 92

As I recall by 98 we had adopted more of a 3wr attack, but I that getting the backs involved in that quantity is more that doable.

Back then, the LBs were slow run stoppers. That's why Walsh getting RBs involved in the passing game was a novel concept and the league was caught with its pants down as hitting Craig in stride out of the backfield resulted in good RAC. Nowadays, LBs are the most athletically well rounded players on the field. There have also been a number of defensive schemes that directly combat the short passing game of the WCO such as zone blitzes, tampa2, and the 3-4 defense (which put more athleticism on the field). I'm not disagreeing with you that the 49er RBs shouldn't be involved more in the passing game, but gone are the days where a swing pass to the RB is going to regularly net 8-10 yards, unless that RB is a little jitterbug.
Originally posted by Niners816:
The triangle really is the secret of the whole offense. That is what allowed the Niners to hit at a completion % way above league average.

Speaking of the trinangle the one play in my mind that really illustrates it is the Z-Spot or Spot plays




This play was huge for the Niners especially with Shanahan. Along with Flanker Drive it has always been my favorite quenesstial WCO play.

Yup, right there is a prototypical WCO play that combines two types of stretches and a man coverage beating concept as the Z executes a pick on any defender going out to defend the F in the flat. The progressions are made easy on the QB by having all three reads on one side of the field. Good stuff.
Originally posted by thl408:
Back then, the LBs were slow run stoppers. That's why Walsh getting RBs involved in the passing game was a novel concept and the league was caught with its pants down as hitting Craig in stride out of the backfield resulted in good RAC. Nowadays, LBs are the most athletically well rounded players on the field. There have also been a number of defensive schemes that directly combat the short passing game of the WCO such as zone blitzes, tampa2, and the 3-4 defense (which put more athleticism on the field). I'm not disagreeing with you that the 49er RBs shouldn't be involved more in the passing game, but gone are the days where a swing pass to the RB is going to regularly net 8-10 yards, unless that RB is a little jitterbug.

I remember watching the games (i'm 34 so I reacall watching 1988 on), but the shear number of catches by backs still surprises me. Those teams (aside for '98) threw the ball usually below 500 times a season. Also alot of the stuff especially when Holmgren became primary play caller had backs motioning to essentially give a 3 wide look.

As for our current team, I would love to see James assume sort of a Darren Spoles type role in the passing games. Now I know that the Saint throw the ball more than just about any team in NFL history but they had two Backs have 70+ catches last year. I guess I dont see why They couldn't take the scheme of Z-In or Spot stick it in a shot gun with james at back and make defenders have to cover him as checkdown. Now I agree you see plays where we do it like that but Kaps doesn't take it. Harbaugh/Roman have to pound it into him that any yards are HUGE yards in the NFL. It goes back to Walsh comparing football to boxing and beating a team by an inch on everyplay because it will always add up.
Side note: I have had NFL Network on in the background today and they've been covering the Path to the Draft episodes. I can never get enough of the Lattimore story and it was nice to revist LaMichael James running a 4.37 and catching everything out of the backfield in drills and them saying, "...and what I love about him, when you see his highlights, you are seeing the back of his jersey...he is a big play waiting to happen!"

Arg!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Side note: I have had NFL Network on in the background today and they've been covering the Path to the Draft episodes. I can never get enough of the Lattimore story and it was nice to revist LaMichael James running a 4.37 and catching everything out of the backfield in drills and them saying, "...and what I love about him, when you see his highlights, you are seeing the back of his jersey...he is a big play waiting to happen!"

Arg!

Its time to use James and get creative. Based on how we used him thus far it seems like we drafted him just so we didn't have to play him. I mean he needs to be at least a 8-10 touches a game guy and IMO that is on the low end. I don't care if it a couple screens, or flares or jet sweeps we just need to get him the ball. I just feel like he has been wasted so far.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Feb 27, 2014 at 1:42 PM ]
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Side note: I have had NFL Network on in the background today and they've been covering the Path to the Draft episodes. I can never get enough of the Lattimore story and it was nice to revist LaMichael James running a 4.37 and catching everything out of the backfield in drills and them saying, "...and what I love about him, when you see his highlights, you are seeing the back of his jersey...he is a big play waiting to happen!"

Arg!

Its time to use James and get creative. Based on how we used him thus far it seems like we drafted him just so we didn't have to play him. I mean he needs to be at least a 8-10 touches a game guy and IMO that is on the low end. I don't care if it a couple screens, or flares or jet sweeps we just need to get him the ball. I just feel like he has been wasted so far.

Well, given our leading receiver only averages 4-5 catches a game, I don't see this happening any time soon for James.
Now I hate Seattle just as much as I assume all you guys do, but I really like the why they incorperate their read option game. They basically go trips one side with TE on the opposite. The back is on the TE side, I love how this give the QB a pretty easy option read and Wilson runs it really well.

Now I would like the Niners to use a similar approach to their option game and pretty much scrap the pistol. Now to tie this back to the WCO, I don't see why the Niners couldn't use a similar formation but bunch the Wideouts and run at horizonal and vertical stretch concept like spot on the bunch side. The formation still gives you the ability to use the option game and basically this series of plays can become a check with me. I think something like this could work well against have press teams cause of the bunch and if you option out of this form it make the defense alert for that.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Well, given our leading receiver only averages 4-5 catches a game, I don't see this happening any time soon for James.

Maybe we need to start a twitter champain #FreeJames I kid, I not even on twitter, but our passing performance does not represent the amount of passing talent we have on our roster. Its just so frustrating cause we are not getting #6 until this void get fixed.
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Well, given our leading receiver only averages 4-5 catches a game, I don't see this happening any time soon for James.

Maybe we need to start a twitter champain #FreeJames I kid, I not even on twitter, but our passing performance does not represent the amount of passing talent we have on our roster. Its just so frustrating cause we are not getting #6 until this void get fixed.

he does enough of that on his own
Originally posted by crabman82:
he does enough of that on his own

Very true...It to the point where it rings hollow. He needs other to take to the champaign.