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What kind of offense do we run?

  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 8,848
Originally posted by Niners816:
I can see your concearn though. That why I think along with the Texas concept you could add in the hb arrow plays. Basically the back would make it look like a circle/angle route then whip it to the flat. I think he combination of those concepts would play hell on spying lbs.

What it comes down to for me is the WCO concepts are the blueprint for championship football and we have the biggest Archive in the league at our head quarters, but we chose to use 10-20% of it. Now if we where putting up 375 ypg and 30 ppg the current way I wouldn't complain. However I doubt the current way can accomplish that and I know the old WCO can.

Agreed. I would love to see a more ball control type of passing attack (WCO). A 5 yard pass play on first down opens up everything on 2nd down - run play or play action. Yet Harbaugh is cemented in making 1st down primarily a running down. If we all see it, of course defensive coordinators see it. This may work in college where if you have a stud Oline, they can physically dominate the Dline. In the NFL, the gap in talent is not as wide and if the defense knows what's coming, they will more than likely stop it.

I am willing to be more patient with this offense as Kap develops. In AS's second year as a starter in Harbaugh's offense, he had a dynamite 70% completion rate along with a 8.0 YPA (10 games), while distributing the ball effectively. I would fault Jim big time if he got away from that just because Kap can get the ball downfield.
MB nailed it here in his rookie receiver assessment re: wanting a speedy receiver:

Cooks is a stone-cold winner. (In fact, he won $100,000 from Adidas by being the fastest receiver at the combine)...And I can't help but wonder if he'd be wasted on the 49ers. While he certainly could be used to put pressure on the back ends of defenses - something the 49ers desperately need - he might be best as a receiver who, like Percy Harvin or Tavon Austin, lines up in myriad spots and is used in creative ways. The 49ers coaches, however, have shown a reluctance to use their receivers in creative ways (See: Ginn, Ted) and have not wavered from their power-based approach. It's one of the reason why 2012 picks, A.J. Jenkins and LaMichael James, have seemed like fish out of water in San Francisco.

Read more here: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2014/02/before-i-get-into-some.html#storylink=cpy

This is what I've been saying all along...Moss, Moore, Ginn, Lockette, etc...are we REALLY going to use a speedster properly and if so, how much? Enough to warrant a first round pick?
Originally posted by NCommand:
MB nailed it here in his rookie receiver assessment re: wanting a speedy receiver:

Cooks is a stone-cold winner. (In fact, he won $100,000 from Adidas by being the fastest receiver at the combine)...And I can't help but wonder if he'd be wasted on the 49ers. While he certainly could be used to put pressure on the back ends of defenses - something the 49ers desperately need - he might be best as a receiver who, like Percy Harvin or Tavon Austin, lines up in myriad spots and is used in creative ways. The 49ers coaches, however, have shown a reluctance to use their receivers in creative ways (See: Ginn, Ted) and have not wavered from their power-based approach. It's one of the reason why 2012 picks, A.J. Jenkins and LaMichael James, have seemed like fish out of water in San Francisco.

Read more here: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2014/02/before-i-get-into-some.html#storylink=cpy

This is what I've been saying all along...Moss, Moore, Ginn, Lockette, etc...are we REALLY going to use a speedster properly and if so, how much? Enough to warrant a first round pick?

I totally agree here. There is a bunch of threads about big vs fast wr. How can we really know when the offensive philosophy is a mosh posh and not really a consistent system to formulate off of
Originally posted by thl408:
Agreed. I would love to see a more ball control type of passing attack (WCO). A 5 yard pass play on first down opens up everything on 2nd down - run play or play action. Yet Harbaugh is cemented in making 1st down primarily a running down. If we all see it, of course defensive coordinators see it. This may work in college where if you have a stud Oline, they can physically dominate the Dline. In the NFL, the gap in talent is not as wide and if the defense knows what's coming, they will more than likely stop it.

I am willing to be more patient with this offense as Kap develops. In AS's second year as a starter in Harbaugh's offense, he had a dynamite 70% completion rate along with a 8.0 YPA (10 games), while distributing the ball effectively. I would fault Jim big time if he got away from that just because Kap can get the ball downfield.

Totally agree. If we adopted the traditional WCO philosophy of passing to set up the run, our OL and run game could be the ultimate closer icing the games away. I'm of the firm mind set of passing to get a lead and grinding on a wore down defense in the second half. Hell under harbaugh we have been an outstanding run team 145-160 ypg playing smash mouth. Well under Walsh in '87 the niners rushed for 149 as team to go along with 250 yards passing. So honestly there doesn't have to be trade offs.
Originally posted by thl408:
Just for others to know what the Texas concept is: Route #1 forces the MLB to run with the TE a bit, which opens up the 'Texas' route (#2). If the MLB doesn't follow the TE, then the TE hits the seam in a MOFO coverage. MOFO is cover2, cover4. (MOFC is cover1 and cover3)


Good stuff man. Just wanted to illustrate what you meant in your play. Seems like a solid passing pay to me as the bunching negates press coverage and the curl-flat (blue routes) gives options against zone coverage. This combines man busting concepts with a zone buster.

Yep, that is what I was thinking. With the prevailing use of spread formations it becomes pretty easy to marry more than one concept per play. You could do like a smash-drive play. Smash is really a cover 2 beater and drive is designed to beat both man and zone. Honestly I thought our scariest formation last season was when we would go 5 wide gun. Let kap see the field and if they play man he is off to the races. I would be all for adopting this as a base form and piling as many WCO concepts that it allows. Use this maybe with a little tempo in the first half put up 14-21 points, then let the power and play pass game dictate the second half.
"Ask Madden"
I miss Walsh's "chess" passing offense compared to the "checkers" passing offense of today.
  • thl408
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 8,848
Cool article written by the Man himself.

"Ball-Control Passing Don't isolate throwing the forward pass to a given down and distance. If you are going to throw the ball, you must be willing to throw on first down, not a token pass hoping for the best, but a pass that is designed to get you a certain amount of yardage."


In Scoring Territory
"I have seen many teams march the ball beautifully, but right around the 15-yard line, they are already warming up their placekicker, because right at that point defenses change, the field they can operate in changes, and suddenly their basic offense goes all to pieces.

My contention is that if we are on their 25, we're going for the end zone. Failing at that, we will kick a field goal. In an evenly matched game, I don't want to try to take the ball from their 25 to the goal line by trying to smash it through people, because three out of four times, you won't make it. Unless you are superior. Of course, if you are vastly superior it makes very little difference how you do it."

Originally posted by thl408:
Cool article written by the Man himself.

"Ball-Control Passing Don't isolate throwing the forward pass to a given down and distance. If you are going to throw the ball, you must be willing to throw on first down, not a token pass hoping for the best, but a pass that is designed to get you a certain amount of yardage."


In Scoring Territory
"I have seen many teams march the ball beautifully, but right around the 15-yard line, they are already warming up their placekicker, because right at that point defenses change, the field they can operate in changes, and suddenly their basic offense goes all to pieces.

My contention is that if we are on their 25, we're going for the end zone. Failing at that, we will kick a field goal. In an evenly matched game, I don't want to try to take the ball from their 25 to the goal line by trying to smash it through people, because three out of four times, you won't make it. Unless you are superior. Of course, if you are vastly superior it makes very little difference how you do it."


Not a bad philosophy esp. when you have many weapons like Rice, Taylor, Jones, Craig, etc. and an array of plays that help create mismatches in your favor.

But the point here is that there was a mindset to attack. In our RZ offense, we rarely go TO the EZ. It's often times quick sprint outs, one-receiver option or AR2 routes that throw the ball well short of the EZ and require perfect execution and lots of RAC to score.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by thl408:
Cool article written by the Man himself.

"Ball-Control Passing Don't isolate throwing the forward pass to a given down and distance. If you are going to throw the ball, you must be willing to throw on first down, not a token pass hoping for the best, but a pass that is designed to get you a certain amount of yardage."


In Scoring Territory
"I have seen many teams march the ball beautifully, but right around the 15-yard line, they are already warming up their placekicker, because right at that point defenses change, the field they can operate in changes, and suddenly their basic offense goes all to pieces.

My contention is that if we are on their 25, we're going for the end zone. Failing at that, we will kick a field goal. In an evenly matched game, I don't want to try to take the ball from their 25 to the goal line by trying to smash it through people, because three out of four times, you won't make it. Unless you are superior. Of course, if you are vastly superior it makes very little difference how you do it."


Not a bad philosophy esp. when you have many weapons like Rice, Taylor, Jones, Craig, etc. and an array of plays that help create mismatches in your favor.

But the point here is that there was a mindset to attack. In our RZ offense, we rarely go TO the EZ. It's often times quick sprint outs, one-receiver option or AR2 routes that throw the ball well short of the EZ and require perfect execution and lots of RAC to score.

This seems like such an opposite approach to our offensive philosophy. I really like dawson and hope he comes back but having a good fg kicker handicaps our offense and play calling. Seems like because we have a good kicker they are too happy to settle for fgs from the 35 in. Especially in the RZ
Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed...think a pro-stytle Spread (4-5 receiver options) would be most ideal for CK and the personnel we currently have.

I agree! But it's almost a pipe dream with our current coaching style. Imagine a resigned Boldin (I'm getting nervous that he'll go elsewhere), Crabtree, Patton, Vernon and Brandin Cooks firing away at the defense!!! I think we leave SOOOOO much on the table with our predictable run based offense.
Originally posted by pete98146:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed...think a pro-stytle Spread (4-5 receiver options) would be most ideal for CK and the personnel we currently have.

I agree! But it's almost a pipe dream with our current coaching style. Imagine a resigned Boldin (I'm getting nervous that he'll go elsewhere), Crabtree, Patton, Vernon and Brandin Cooks firing away at the defense!!! I think we leave SOOOOO much on the table with our predictable run based offense.

Hey, a fan can dream!
West coast, short slant, coast to coast, TD!
  • LVJay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 10,532
Lose 2 NFCC and SB type of offense... the best ever
Originally posted by thl408:
Cool article written by the Man himself.

"Ball-Control Passing Don't isolate throwing the forward pass to a given down and distance. If you are going to throw the ball, you must be willing to throw on first down, not a token pass hoping for the best, but a pass that is designed to get you a certain amount of yardage."


In Scoring Territory
"I have seen many teams march the ball beautifully, but right around the 15-yard line, they are already warming up their placekicker, because right at that point defenses change, the field they can operate in changes, and suddenly their basic offense goes all to pieces.

My contention is that if we are on their 25, we're going for the end zone. Failing at that, we will kick a field goal. In an evenly matched game, I don't want to try to take the ball from their 25 to the goal line by trying to smash it through people, because three out of four times, you won't make it. Unless you are superior. Of course, if you are vastly superior it makes very little difference how you do it."


That is a great article. Those three plays diagramed are the Walsh offense at its core. If you look at them they all have the same characteristics of have a primary read, secondary read and a check down. As mentioned earlier in this thread, we sorely lack the check down element to our current offense. It was no mistake in our heyday that rathman would catch 75 balls as a FB. I know the FB is a dying position in he nfl, but we still carry one and usually defender hate tackling a big bruiser coming out of the back field. Check downs keeps pressure on the defense, keeps the offense ahead of the sticks and in kaps case could help get that comp % up into that 60-65% range.