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What kind of offense do we run?

Originally posted by LasVegasWally:
Good post.

Sometimes I feel we run the "WTF" offense when we are in the Red Zone.

WTF...so funny!

Yeah, we run a WTF offense on all first downs and in the RZ and then an ad lib intermediate (QB run or passing) offense between the 20's.
I love the west coast personally, i grew up on it but whatever works to win win win
Originally posted by Constantine:
I love the west coast personally, i grew up on it but whatever works to win win win

Agreed...think a pro-stytle Spread (4-5 receiver options) would be most ideal for CK and the personnel we currently have.
Originally posted by NCommand:
You are bringing back WAY too many good memories. LOL

Now don't get me wrong I love jim and everything he has done and I'm of the opinion the none sense that arose this weekend is overblown. But there is a part of me that sees mike shanahan currently out of a job and just thinks next year is the 20th anniversary I gets that it's not 1994 anymore but the offense we was running was timeless IMO. Also shanahan has glowing things to say about kap leading up to the Washington game this year....I'm not saying, but I'm just saying

Of course in my dream, the two time championship head coach want to finish his career as an OC for a certain Bay Area team that didn't screw him over
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Constantine:
I love the west coast personally, i grew up on it but whatever works to win win win

Agreed...think a pro-stytle Spread (4-5 receiver options) would be most ideal for CK and the personnel we currently have.

I agree. The reason I originally brought it up is because with the draft and the limited production we have had with the talent at wr outside of 2 players and rb outside of 1 player maybe we are not picking up the right pieces to the puzzle. I also think the puzzle needs to be better defined to find said pieces. Also with regards to the smash mouth running game at an 8 man box. Seems really successful when we spread and then run draws. This is not knock on anybody at the coaching level or higher. Just an observation and hope. It all cures with a SB 49 Win
we run this offence>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by NCommand:
You are bringing back WAY too many good memories. LOL

Now don't get me wrong I love jim and everything he has done and I'm of the opinion the none sense that arose this weekend is overblown. But there is a part of me that sees mike shanahan currently out of a job and just thinks next year is the 20th anniversary I gets that it's not 1994 anymore but the offense we was running was timeless IMO. Also shanahan has glowing things to say about kap leading up to the Washington game this year....I'm not saying, but I'm just saying

Of course in my dream, the two time championship head coach want to finish his career as an OC for a certain Bay Area team that didn't screw him over

Agreed that everything is probably overblown but that there is contention there as well...as there should be...our offense and ST's absolutely suck and have cost us 3 straight years. Is that even debatable anymore...2 different QB's, same exact results?

So yes, Baalke has to look at ALL of the talent and moves he's made from the immediate to future needs and he and Jed HAVE to say at some point, "OK, obviously, we can see where we are weak and what is holding us back from winning #6. Harbaugh is the offensive guru. We continue to suck and make horrendous decisions on ST's. Harbaugh is responsible for the 46 at the end of the day. Soooo...we need to address this with him."

MS seems like he would be ideal for us in that sense...Harbaugh gets his contract, the offense is turned over to MS and Harbaugh can concentrate on coaching FT and helping to develop his QB under the WCO.
Originally posted by teylo31:
I agree. The reason I originally brought it up is because with the draft and the limited production we have had with the talent at wr outside of 2 players and rb outside of 1 player maybe we are not picking up the right pieces to the puzzle. I also think the puzzle needs to be better defined to find said pieces. Also with regards to the smash mouth running game at an 8 man box. Seems really successful when we spread and then run draws. This is not knock on anybody at the coaching level or higher. Just an observation and hope. It all cures with a SB 49 Win

I totally agree. I see no reason outside of philosophy why this team averages around 180 ypg passing. With this personnel, they should be around that 235-250 ypg pass especially in today's nfl. You couple that sort of production passing with the 140-150 ypg rush and now your talking about a top 5 or at worst top 10 offense. With our d, that could be a juggernaut.
  • thl408
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Originally posted by Niners816:
Speaking of 1994, probably my favorite offensive performance poutside the Super Bowl was the Deion homecoming game at Atlanta. I remember it being an Absolute clinic in regards to both qb play and the WCO in general. Steve was 15/16 for 145 and 4 tds and had a 28-3 halftime lead. Here was the differnce between then and now, instead of padding his stAts and staying in, he didn't even play he second half. That is why as good as the niners qb numbers were I think it would be safe to say the left several tds and yards just by shutting it down with huge leads in the second half. The nfl today is sort of like a 12 year old playing madden, it is all about stats and fantasy numbers.

Now as for the title game vs Seattle, obviously Seattle made an adjustment to contain kaps legs in the second half. I still haven't rewatched it cause the pain is still pretty fresh, but I have little doubt a Walsh, holmgren or shanahan would have diagnosed the adjustment and exploited the new weakness. Speaking of WCO concepts, I think kap would excel on Texas concepts play. Hell we used to run that concept 5+ times a game. That's how watters caught 65 passes or more so how even Derrick loville had 85+ reception in 95. We make it way to easy on defense by not making them cover backs out of the back field.

My biggest complaint of the current offense - lack of passes to the RBs. I don't think/want the RBs to get that many catches, but somewhere in the around 2-3 per game is good. Just to keep defenses honest and respectful of the RBs as a receiving threat. I don't think Gore would actually fare that well in RAC as much as Hunter/LMJ would.

I'm not so sure how well the Texas route/concept would work for Kap since a LB is often left in the middle of the field to spy on Kap. That same LB would be in a good position to defend the Texas route. I think RB routes to the flats would work better due to the LB spy in the middle of the field. I do agree with your premise that RBs need to get more touches in the passing game. Once the LBs spread themselves horizontally to respect the RBs in the flats, it opens up the middle of the field. Right now, I see no reason why a LB would follow a 49er RB running to the flats.
Originally posted by thl408:
Right now, I see no reason why a LB would follow a 49er RB running to the flats.

This is so true...whoever the spy is as well, esp...LB/S. Nobody pays attention to Gore, Hunter, James, Miller on these delayed outlet routes; wide open!
Originally posted by thl408:
My biggest complaint of the current offense - lack of passes to the RBs. I don't think/want the RBs to get that many catches, but somewhere in the around 2-3 per game is good. Just to keep defenses honest and respectful of the RBs as a receiving threat. I don't think Gore would actually fare that well in RAC as much as Hunter/LMJ would.

I'm not so sure how well the Texas route/concept would work for Kap since a LB is often left in the middle of the field to spy on Kap. That same LB would be in a good position to defend the Texas route. I think RB routes to the flats would work better due to the LB spy in the middle of the field. I do agree with your premise that RBs need to get more touches in the passing game. Once the LBs spread themselves horizontally to respect the RBs in the flats, it opens up the middle of the field. Right now, I see no reason why a LB would follow a 49er RB running to the flats.

My thinking is since they would be spying kaep, u essentially have a lb guarding three option. You have the TE seam, the back angle and kap running. The lb takes the back, it makes the seam read on a saftey more clear or really opens a lane for kap. Now if he stays with kap the back route should be wide open. Kaps legs really are The ultimate equalizer and I think he would flourish in a sound structured WCO.

They used to spy steve a lot also and this concept worked really well. Especially with Vernon's speed he could really exploit that seam.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Feb 26, 2014 at 10:52 AM ]
  • thl408
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Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by thl408:
My biggest complaint of the current offense - lack of passes to the RBs. I don't think/want the RBs to get that many catches, but somewhere in the around 2-3 per game is good. Just to keep defenses honest and respectful of the RBs as a receiving threat. I don't think Gore would actually fare that well in RAC as much as Hunter/LMJ would.

I'm not so sure how well the Texas route/concept would work for Kap since a LB is often left in the middle of the field to spy on Kap. That same LB would be in a good position to defend the Texas route. I think RB routes to the flats would work better due to the LB spy in the middle of the field. I do agree with your premise that RBs need to get more touches in the passing game. Once the LBs spread themselves horizontally to respect the RBs in the flats, it opens up the middle of the field. Right now, I see no reason why a LB would follow a 49er RB running to the flats.

My thinking is since they would be spying kaep, u essentially have a lb guarding three option. You have the TE seam, the back angle and kap running. The lb takes the back, it makes the seam read on a saftey more clear or really opens a lane for kap. Now if he stays with kap the back route should be wide open. Kaps legs really are The ultimate equalizer and I think he would flourish in a sound structured WCO.

They used to spy steve a lot also and this concept worked really well. Especially with Vernon's speed he could really exploit that seam.

The Texas concept was a combination route with the RB/TE. I know you mentioned that above. This route combo was designed to beat a cover2 look as the TE split the two safties and beat a middle of the field open (MOFO) coverage. The 49ers are often facing MOFClosed looks so I see them running a lot of vertical sideline routes as well as corner routes that attack down the sidelines.

Good point on how Kap's legs can open up the RB's Texas route as the LB has three options. But this is provided that the two deep safties respect a deep threat down the sideline. There was no such threat on the 49ers last season. Moss was the reason why VD hit those seams when AS was here. As the safety respected Moss down the sideline, VD got room to operate down the middle seam. As it was last season, the deep saftey that closed the middle of the field would take away the TE vertical route down the middle of the field (hence VD running so many corner routes last season). This frees up the MLB from having to defend that TE route in the Texas route combination.
Originally posted by thl408:
My biggest complaint of the current offense - lack of passes to the RBs. I don't think/want the RBs to get that many catches, but somewhere in the around 2-3 per game is good. Just to keep defenses honest and respectful of the RBs as a receiving threat. I don't think Gore would actually fare that well in RAC as much as Hunter/LMJ would.

I'm not so sure how well the Texas route/concept would work for Kap since a LB is often left in the middle of the field to spy on Kap. That same LB would be in a good position to defend the Texas route. I think RB routes to the flats would work better due to the LB spy in the middle of the field. I do agree with your premise that RBs need to get more touches in the passing game. Once the LBs spread themselves horizontally to respect the RBs in the flats, it opens up the middle of the field. Right now, I see no reason why a LB would follow a 49er RB running to the flats.

I can see your concearn though. That why I think along with the Texas concept you could add in the hb arrow plays. Basically the back would make it look like a circle/angle route then whip it to the flat. I think he combination of those concepts would play hell on spying lbs.

What it comes down to for me is the WCO concepts are the blueprint for championship football and we have the biggest Archive in the league at our head quarters, but we chose to use 10-20% of it. Now if we where putting up 375 ypg and 30 ppg the current way I wouldn't complain. However I doubt the current way can accomplish that and I know the old WCO can.
Originally posted by thl408:
The Texas concept was a combination route with the RB/TE. I know you mentioned that above. This route combo was designed to beat a cover2 look as the TE split the two safties and beat a middle of the field open (MOFO) coverage. The 49ers are often facing MOFClosed looks so I see them running a lot of vertical sideline routes as well as corner routes that attack down the sidelines.

Good point on how Kap's legs can open up the RB's Texas route as the LB has three options. But this is provided that the two deep safties respect a deep threat down the sideline. There was no such threat on the 49ers last season. Moss was the reason why VD hit those seams when AS was here. As the safety respected Moss down the sideline, VD got room to operate down the middle seam. As it was last season, the deep saftey that closed the middle of the field would take away the TE vertical route down the middle of the field (hence VD running so many corner routes last season). This frees up the MLB from having to defend that TE route in the Texas route combination.

All really good points, I think you could make Texas an automatic audible vs cover 2. Now I also think that Texas could be used in concert with a mofc/cover 3 beater such as curl-flAt or slant-arrow. Come out in a gun y-trip with the back on he strong side. You have the TE/back do Texas and the slot/wideout run curl-flat. But you are right, we have to get a burner to blow the top off these coverages.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Feb 26, 2014 at 11:38 AM ]
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Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by thl408:
The Texas concept was a combination route with the RB/TE. I know you mentioned that above. This route combo was designed to beat a cover2 look as the TE split the two safties and beat a middle of the field open (MOFO) coverage. The 49ers are often facing MOFClosed looks so I see them running a lot of vertical sideline routes as well as corner routes that attack down the sidelines.

Good point on how Kap's legs can open up the RB's Texas route as the LB has three options. But this is provided that the two deep safties respect a deep threat down the sideline. There was no such threat on the 49ers last season. Moss was the reason why VD hit those seams when AS was here. As the safety respected Moss down the sideline, VD got room to operate down the middle seam. As it was last season, the deep saftey that closed the middle of the field would take away the TE vertical route down the middle of the field (hence VD running so many corner routes last season). This frees up the MLB from having to defend that TE route in the Texas route combination.

All really good points, I think you could make Texas and automatic audible vs cover 2. Now I also think that Texas could be used in concert with a mofc/cover 3 beater such as curl-flAt or slant-arrow. Come out in a gun y-trip with the back on he strong side. You have the TE/back do Texas and the slot/wideout run curl-flat. But you are right, we have to get a burner to blow the top off these coverages.

Just for others to know what the Texas concept is: Route #1 forces the MLB to run with the TE a bit, which opens up the 'Texas' route (#2). If the MLB doesn't follow the TE, then the TE hits the seam in a MOFO coverage. MOFO is cover2, cover4. (MOFC is cover1 and cover3)


Good stuff man. Just wanted to illustrate what you meant in your play. Seems like a solid passing pay to me as the bunching negates press coverage and the curl-flat (blue routes) gives options against zone coverage. This combines man busting concepts with a zone buster.