What kind of offense do we run?

Originally posted by thl408:

Damn man, so much anger. I commend you, though, for raising football issues with examples.

1. when something works he , for no known reason, runs from it...:
You brought up a good example in the IND game. I also thought they should have stuck with the run in the second half. In the SB, there was a run called on 1st down (LMJ stuffed), and a QB bootleg called on 3rd down before a timeout was called.

2. run gore into a 9 man line and then have the nerve to tell the team vs the panthers in the first game you are not good enough to get a half yard on fourth and short from the goal line:
I already stated why the 49ers do this. To try and establish the run and get the play action game going. About the CAR regular season game you used as an example of him not going for it on 4th down, do you really think that was an offensive coordinator's decision to kick a FG or go for it? It is not. That is a head coach's decision.

3. I already mentioned the cute play to Ginn and I hated it. You just used it again. He does get too cute. I also cited the end around pass from Boldin to Crabs in the CAR playoff game. That was a stupid playcall, on top of what looked like a LMJ pass in the nfccg.

4. inability or unwillingless to fake the god damn run to set up the pass in the red zone. we did it one time I think vs the skins and of course we never used it again:
I created a thread called "all22 look at all 50 Touchdowns". In it, VD must have caught at least 5 TDs in the very manner in which you described. I know you don't like looking at pictures, so I will post 2 GIFs from that thread below. There are more play action passes in the red zone that result in TDs in that thread if you wish to look, on top of the one you referred to in the WAS game.




5. Back to those sequence of plays again from the SB again. I got nothing for you there. The 49ers chose to pass, they didn't score so they should have ran. Had they ran and not scored, we are here b***hing about how they should have passed. This hurts to re-visit in depth so I'll just say that one of those plays was going to be a QB bootleg but a timeout was called. Kap addressed this very play in an offseason interview and said he thought they would have scored. I'm done with this drive, you made your point.

6. refusing to at least try to run a screen pass to backs like gore, hunter and james who can catch the ball and do something with it, not even to try
There is a thread about the screen pass and why the 49ers aren't good at it. Below are two GIFs from that thread. If you didn't notice any screen passes by the 49ers, then I question whether you are able to recognize a screen pass unless it results in a large gain.

Notice how slow Iupati is getting out to his block. Had Kap thrown this screen pass, Hunter gets taken down immediately because Iupati and Boone fail to get that LB in the middle of the screen #52.


Here's a Gore screen pass that fails miserably.


And of course, one to LMJ that fails. Look at all those LBs ready to tackle LMJ.


Post #41 has more, and those were just the ones I quickly found scanning through the season, up to that point in the season (mid December). It's not all bad, they got some middle screens to work to the RBs: http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/176222-screen-pass-argument/page3/

7abcde:
Stuff about bad playcalling. I get it.

I am not a Roman bathwater drinker. If you read the posts above this one, I acknowledge his shortcomings. I try to see all sides and stay objective. You seem to have been permanently jaded by the SB's final drive. So much so that Roman can do no right. How did you not see all the playaction passes to score in the red zone this past season? How did you not see the screen passes that get attempted? It's because your disgust for Roman is set in stone and you are blind with hatred. If you step back and look at what he is, he is a solid OC with some obvious faults. You have shown me all I need to know in terms of how much you know the 49ers. Any points you raise in the future regarding anything related to 49ers' offense are now invalid to me, so put that in your corn pipe and smoke it.

Oh, and to those that said the post I quoted above was a good post, it is not. There is plenty of misinformation.

You got my vote for Webzone Hall of Famer.

Originally posted by cciowa:
"
haha. i know some get caught up in who "schooled who like this is jr high and thats fine if that trips your trigger. i really do not care if its jimmy ray , greg roman or joe joe the monkey boy,, i would just appreciate a OC who plays to our strengths , knows how to use our weapons and does not go full retard in key moments in key games. I appreciate your concern but being "worried" about fellow posters and how they respond to my posts is the least of my concerns. if it gives you a little extra hop in your giddy up, knock yourself out bud

I got schooled.

Having moved to Reno, work for the Univ., bought season tickets the same year (& years since). First game our starting QB goes down with knee injury. They bring in this freshman, who I can best describe looked like a giraffe in a football uniform. Kap. He was a huge hero here. When I heard Harbaugh had "secret" workout with Kap and realized this was the first QB he visited I thought from that point on we might draft him and stumped for him.

But I was schooled, many here argued for Gabbert. They all left beat me up with "superior arguments" to mine (Gabbert played tougher competition/Kap from Gimmicky offense/Kap is run first QB/Bad throwing motion)

What I wouldn't give to remember who those Zoners were.

Incessantly attacking Greg Roman reminds me of the raging bravado of the cowardly lion.

At some point, recognition that Roman stands, or has stood, only as an instrument for Harbaugh and Harbaugh's vision of offense must be acknowledged.

Repetitive carping about Roman may induce a euphoric sense of righteousness, but it begs any coherency.

The offense of the 49ers seems to be the offense the head coach wants.

Acknowledging this, as distasteful as it may seem, should change the tenor and the substance of the debate.

Not entirely pleased with our offense and our passing offense in particular, I have been struggling with a different concern.

Harbaugh has been a critical agent in turning this team around. As one of Harbaugh's main functionaries, Roman merits credit for this turn around.

If the team has not done enough to earn our respect and pleasure, placing the blame on a subaltern seems entirely gutless.

As we approach the coming year, we should forthrightly acknowledge the centrality of Harbaugh. Roman will do what Harbaugh wants, and if Harbaugh wants change that change will come.

I tend to think that as the head coach Harbaugh has the right to determine the offensive scheme, in a sense to live and die by and with his vision of what the offense should and will be.

The coming year will be exciting, and sometimes frustrating. I look forward with a degree of confidence and hope.

Originally posted by buck:

Incessantly attacking Greg Roman reminds me of the raging bravado of the cowardly lion.

At some point, recognition that Roman stands, or has stood, only as an instrument for Harbaugh and Harbaugh's vision of offense must be acknowledged.

Repetitive carping about Roman may induce a euphoric sense of righteousness, but it begs any coherency.

The offense of the 49ers seems to be the offense the head coach wants.

Acknowledging this, as distasteful as it may seems, should change the tenor and the substance of the debate.

Not entirely pleased with our offense and our passing offense in particular, I have been struggling with a different concern.

Harbaugh has been a critical agent in turning this team around. As one of Harbaugh's main functionaries, Roman merits credit for this turn around.

If the team has not done enough to earn our respect and pleasure, placing the blame on a subaltern seems entirely gutless.

As we approach the coming year, we should forthrightly acknowledge the centrality of Harbaugh. Roman will do what Harbaugh wants, and if Harbaugh wants change that change will come.

I tend to think that as the head coach Harbaugh has the right to determine the offensive scheme, in a sense to live and die by and with his vision of what the offense should and will be.

The coming year will be exciting, and sometimes frustrating. I look forward with a degree of confidence and hope.

^^^nailed it....great post

Originally posted by Giedi:

You got my vote for Webzone Hall of Famer.

I second this statement

Originally posted by thl408:
I feel it's most like how Joe Gibbs ran his Air Coryell offense with the Redskins in the late 80s/early 90s. A run first mentality with lots of of double TE sets (H back), trying to stretch the field vertically when passing. Only thing is, they don't have the vertical weapons that Gibbs had with AMonk and GClark. Those Redskins teams was power run to set up the play action pass downfield, which is what I think Jim wants to eventually get to. Those Redskins also had some 'fancy' run plays like the counter trey. These 49ers have some intricate run plays as well, contrary to what some may think as Gore rams himself into brick walls. I do think there are plays from the WCO sprinkled in, but the principles of WCO are not there (ball control passing).

This

Originally posted by TheRatMan13:
This makes me so mad since we have more than enough capable backs! Gore used to catch 50+ balls in a season. We have Hunter and LaMichael James who both could play a similar role to Sproles, Shane Vereen, or Danny Woodhead. With Rathman on the coaching staff, and knowing that he came from the WCO, I cannot believe that we do not do this.

I find myself frustrated with Roman at times but, realize: 1) Do I know enough, of the highest level of football to criticize? (not even close) 2) We act like Harbaugh was a defensive guy, so its all on Roman. How much is Roman vs Harbaugh?

Hunter and LMJ are shifty speedsters, why don't we try to get them "in space" more? Short passes or a SCREEN PASS ... not just sweeps.
Something I don't think I have heard here ... I think we used Kap much different last year. We got cold feet to run him like the prior year, I think because of RG III.

Teams always try to "shadow" with a LB. But he often outruns them and they have to get the secondary involved "to keep him boxed in" which opens up some of the passing game. Last year seemed like we announced to the world, we weren't going to run Kap and no need to counter. But, in the playoffs we ran him and both the Panthers and Seahawks seemed lost at times at how to stop. They clearly thought they wouldn't have to defend his running, but then they realized they did. Run Kap just enough so defense will have to account for him, with secondary personnel which will help the passing game.

We go out we hit people in the mouth!

Originally posted by Pillbusta:
We go out we hit people in the mouth!

Physical with an "F"

Originally posted by FrothyBalls:

Originally posted by thl408:
I feel it's most like how Joe Gibbs ran his Air Coryell offense with the Redskins in the late 80s/early 90s. A run first mentality with lots of of double TE sets (H back), trying to stretch the field vertically when passing. Only thing is, they don't have the vertical weapons that Gibbs had with AMonk and GClark. Those Redskins teams was power run to set up the play action pass downfield, which is what I think Jim wants to eventually get to. Those Redskins also had some 'fancy' run plays like the counter trey. These 49ers have some intricate run plays as well, contrary to what some may think as Gore rams himself into brick walls. I do think there are plays from the WCO sprinkled in, but the principles of WCO are not there (ball control passing).

This

then you had teams who won super bowls but changed a bit. look at the steelers, the first two super bowls they just ran it and pounded it. it seems with the last two super bowls bradshaw came into his own and it was a offense centered around the pass to stallworth and swann. they still had franco to keep the defense off stride and still had a killer defense.. that would be wonderful if that would start to now happen to us

hybrid offense. we have the playbook to do it.

as far as the super bowl last drive argument, we should have run simply because running is what got us down there in the first place.

you can't run the same play to the same person a few different times.

also clock management was an issue. roman didn't get the play call in, kap had no time to make the read, we burn a timeout on a td play.
that has been true the entire regime with jim and hopefully this year they get it fixed but that also lends itself to the notion that roman doesn't really have contingency plans.

something works and then he's just like ok let's try this.. it seems like he's got 35 pieces of paper up there like...umm umm umm this one.. and then we have to scramble to get the play in.

now roman just needs to be more aggressive. we need to PRACTICE screens in order to be good at them. we don't practice them enough.

passing multiple routes, no decoy's everyone is an option and everyone will run hard. you saw towards the end of the season, you could tell who was supposed to get the ball because everyone else wasn't running full speed.

all of the talent in the world is there to run a true hybrid offensive system. meaning whatever is the opposing defenses weakness, that's what we exploit because we can.

there shouldn't be a game plan for us. and that's the truth.

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
hybrid offense. we have the playbook to do it.

as far as the super bowl last drive argument, we should have run simply because running is what got us down there in the first place.

you can't run the same play to the same person a few different times.

also clock management was an issue. roman didn't get the play call in, kap had no time to make the read, we burn a timeout on a td play.
that has been true the entire regime with jim and hopefully this year they get it fixed but that also lends itself to the notion that roman doesn't really have contingency plans.

something works and then he's just like ok let's try this.. it seems like he's got 35 pieces of paper up there like...umm umm umm this one.. and then we have to scramble to get the play in.

now roman just needs to be more aggressive. we need to PRACTICE screens in order to be good at them. we don't practice them enough.

passing multiple routes, no decoy's everyone is an option and everyone will run hard. you saw towards the end of the season, you could tell who was supposed to get the ball because everyone else wasn't running full speed.

all of the talent in the world is there to run a true hybrid offensive system. meaning whatever is the opposing defenses weakness, that's what we exploit because we can.

there shouldn't be a game plan for us. and that's the truth.

I dunno. Attacking the other teams weakness sounds brilliant. But its weak. It's actually letting the other team dictate what you will do. SHouldn't do a lot of that. We are the attackers. The other team should react to us, to what we are doing.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
I dunno. Attacking the other teams weakness sounds brilliant. But its weak. It's actually letting the other team dictate what you will do. SHouldn't do a lot of that. We are the attackers. The other team should react to us, to what we are doing.

That has gotten us into multiple points of predictable stagnant offensive displays.

When a team was doing what they were doing against us last season with 8,9,10 in the box, sticking to 1 wr sets does nothing to help.

It doesn't mean that we don't have a game plan going in, it doesn't mean that we don't stay true to attacking. It means we attack their weakness, which is what every team tries to do.

You have stout interior run defense but poor edge rush defense.. run to the edge..

you're weak up the middle...run up the middle..

your db's cannot handle our wr's run and setup for multiple wr routes with multiple options.

your linebackers just aren't quick enough to contend with a moving pocket.. move the pocket..

etc etc etc.

we have the personnel to do ALL of that on a week to week basis. not many, if any offenses can currently say that.

Originally posted by thl408:
Back then, the LBs were slow run stoppers. That's why Walsh getting RBs involved in the passing game was a novel concept and the league was caught with its pants down as hitting Craig in stride out of the backfield resulted in good RAC. Nowadays, LBs are the most athletically well rounded players on the field. There have also been a number of defensive schemes that directly combat the short passing game of the WCO such as zone blitzes, tampa2, and the 3-4 defense (which put more athleticism on the field). I'm not disagreeing with you that the 49er RBs shouldn't be involved more in the passing game, but gone are the days where a swing pass to the RB is going to regularly net 8-10 yards, unless that RB is a little jitterbug.

This.

There's a reason why Roger Craig was able to run around out of the back field back then and now he wouldn't be.

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
That has gotten us into multiple points of predictable stagnant offensive displays.

When a team was doing what they were doing against us last season with 8,9,10 in the box, sticking to 1 wr sets does nothing to help.

It doesn't mean that we don't have a game plan going in, it doesn't mean that we don't stay true to attacking. It means we attack their weakness, which is what every team tries to do.

You have stout interior run defense but poor edge rush defense.. run to the edge..

you're weak up the middle...run up the middle..

your db's cannot handle our wr's run and setup for multiple wr routes with multiple options.

your linebackers just aren't quick enough to contend with a moving pocket.. move the pocket..

etc etc etc.

we have the personnel to do ALL of that on a week to week basis. not many, if any offenses can currently say that.

We do that just not as creatively. Look at the Green Bay Game where Kap passes for over 200 yards vs. the Green Bay Game in the playoffs.

I think what everyone really wants is a better passing offense to compliment our crazy run game.

We now have the pieces - > Crabtree, Davis, Boldin, Johnson, Patton/Ellington but the question really is: can we execute?

There's really no reason our passing game won't be better this year with all this talent but it won't look as creative as the 80's and 90's because of Harbaugh's coaching style.