What kind of offense do we run?

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by thl408:
It wouldn't be fair if I didn't list my own criticisms of Roman.

1. He likes to pass out of heavy run formations, but not the other way around. It's been mentioned before here. The 49ers love to run play action out of the 22 personnel, but how about draw plays out of 3 WR sets? Since the 49ers don't run screen passes well, another way to slow down a pass rush is to call draw plays.

2. He doesn't force feed some of his weapons enough. If Kap isn't able to locate and target guys like Vance/LMJ/Hunter on a pass, then force feed those guys. Get the ball into their hands and see what they can do. This is especially true in the case of LMJ and Hunter, who I think can be effective in open space, with the ball in their hands.

3. He doesn't attack the flats enough. This goes back to #2 above. Get the ball to that area of the field on 1st downs and get some positive yards to set up manageable 2nd and 3rd downs.

4. He doesn't use enough balanced formations. The 49ers line up 3x1 nearly all of the time. I'd like to see more 2x2 (2 WRs on each side) formations so that the defense cannot key in on which side is the strong side.

This is a spot on list. I don't understand why we seemingly ignore 2x2 sets. In 2014, a gun set with boldin in one slot and Johnson in the other with crab split wide and for the hell of VD as the other split end looks pretty scary. That poses a lot of questions to the defense, who do you put on crabs, how do you match up with VD, and finally how are you gonna guard the slots. Kicking in a number 1 corner on either slot is gonna let crabs have a field day. I'm not gonna lie, get Stevie Johnson can be a game changed in regards to our pass game. There should be some exploitable mismatches with in the passing game in 2014.

Agreed. It will force the defense to evenly spread their defense, as opposed to being able to roll coverage towards the strongside, which we saw a lot of in the nfccg. However, I think the 49ers like doing this (going 3x1). They want, and prefer, the isolation of the weakside (backside) WR and a lone CB. They need to mix it up a bit more for the reasons you listed.

Put Kaep in pistol formation with 1,1 and put Vernon in motion, or spread four wide. Either running or passing out of this will give our opposing defense fits.

Originally posted by ayetee:
I keep hearing that Kaep is having problem with the progression and is not going through his reads. I'm pretty dumb when it comes to quarter-backing but can anyone tell me how is it possible that Kaep didn't have these problem in 2012 but "acquired" these flaws in 2013? Can a quarter back who has been doing fine with progressions and reads through four years of college and his first NFL year suddenly forgets how to do them in year two?

Is it possible that Moss, Crabtree, and Manningham progression turned into Boldin, xxx,and yyy progression? ...or maybe because our center has lost a step and Kaep ran out of time to complete his read in year two? Please enlighten me.

In 2012, Kaep had the opportunity to attack an NFL that was not quite ready for what the pistol read option game did to attack a defense. Routinely, Kaep didn't have to go much further than his first read, because the threat of the read option and the way defenses were attacking it in 2012 provided a much larger void between LBers and DBs. Therefore, Kaep an outstanding Completion % of near 58% on passes 20+ yard down the field. We dialed these plays up in boat loads in 2012. Well in 2013, defense stopped being passive on these types of plays and just started blowing up the mesh point. This lead to less time to exploit the void and resulted in Kaep's 20+ yard comp % to fall to right around 36%. Therefore our whole Pistol read option/playaction game was not nearly as effective as it was during the title run in 2012. Also a big part in addition to the above was the injury to Crabtree, whenever a young QB loses his #1 it is always detrimental.

The fact about Kaep is he is still relatively young in a pro style passing game. When you call a WCO concept, there is a set progression in terms of primary, secondary, then checkdown/flat. All QB's have to become comfortable with in these progression, unfortunately you can not force it, it just takes time and reps. There are times when he force passes when it would have be wiser to follow the progression and take the checksowns. Having said all of that, It really is amazing what Kaep has down in his infantcy in the pro game. That is why I'm really hopeful/excited about his development. I have all the confidence in the world that Harbaugh and Roman will get him to the level needed to take that next step and bring home #6.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by NCommand:
So true. The thing that is paramount in the WCO is 1) Multiple options for the QB, usually from high-to-low progressions (Post route, then to the TE in the soft zone and then to the RB as an outlet). There were ALWAYS plenty of receiving options for the QB and 2) Targeting weaknesses. What, Goldson just knocked Brown out in the NFCCG. Great, let's immediately go after Brock for the TD. That's smart in-game play calling right there yet have WE ever done that to a team? And game plans were designed to get both the QB and (all) receivers involved early and often and into a rhythm. Most importantly, the game plan was specifically designed to attack a defenses weaknesses. You suck against the run? Fine, we'll run Ricky Waters for 5 TD's in a playoff game. You have slow S's, fine, we'll exploit you on post patterns with Rice in the Superbowl (Chargers). You have a ferocious pass rush? Fine, our T's will let you fly right by inside while we sneak Steve Young on the edge on a QB keeper (Haley). You could see clear attacks on defensive weaknesses. Us? We run a nice route to McDonald in the NFCCG and then never go back to him even though the soft zones and delayed flare outs by the backs are THE way to exploit Seattle's defense. They were open all game long d/t the added attention to the intermediate sidelines and CK running off the edges and their LB's spying him.

Speaking of 1994, probably my favorite offensive performance poutside the Super Bowl was the Deion homecoming game at Atlanta. I remember it being an Absolute clinic in regards to both qb play and the WCO in general. Steve was 15/16 for 145 and 4 tds and had a 28-3 halftime lead. Here was the differnce between then and now, instead of padding his stAts and staying in, he didn't even play he second half. That is why as good as the niners qb numbers were I think it would be safe to say the left several tds and yards just by shutting it down with huge leads in the second half. The nfl today is sort of like a 12 year old playing madden, it is all about stats and fantasy numbers.

Now as for the title game vs Seattle, obviously Seattle made an adjustment to contain kaps legs in the second half. I still haven't rewatched it cause the pain is still pretty fresh, but I have little doubt a Walsh, holmgren or shanahan would have diagnosed the adjustment and exploited the new weakness. Speaking of WCO concepts, I think kap would excel on Texas concepts play. Hell we used to run that concept 5+ times a game. That's how watters caught 65 passes or more so how even Derrick loville had 85+ reception in 95. We make it way to easy on defense by not making them cover backs out of the back field.

This makes me so mad since we have more than enough capable backs! Gore used to catch 50+ balls in a season. We have Hunter and LaMichael James who both could play a similar role to Sproles, Shane Vereen, or Danny Woodhead. With Rathman on the coaching staff, and knowing that he came from the WCO, I cannot believe that we do not do this.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
816, I have no idea if anyone on the coaching staff ever bothers to read these threads. But the info provided by Buck, NC, Thl, jonesAdrian, and others, sure should have rung some bells for JH. There are a lot of guys in these threads that have legit ideas but one never knows if that info is somehow passed up the chain. Somehow, I sure hope so. Just going 50/50 on first down would bring our overall passing percentage to close to...50/50. The first down passing percentage just has to change. We just give up too much to the D with that kind of knowledge. At 50/50, it's a crapshoot for them, and success for us increases. Such a simple thing, but until I saw Buck's chart(thank you, Buck), I had no idea. Kinda makes me wonder if JH knew that either, altho he sure should have.

It's funny I lurked this forum for years(I remember the first time I found it was duringi the whole TO to Baltimore failure, then eventual trade to Philly fiasco), actually signed up 4 or so years ago, but what really got me as an active poster was the threads specifically talking about our offense. In fact I bet 75-80% of post are somewhere in this thread, Bucks Passing Thread, and Thl's all22 TD thread In a round bout way I think I might have actually stumpled on that 60% first down passing # in Buck's passing thread. It just shocked the hell out of me. That is just tipping you hand way too much.

You just have to hope, that if we as fans/posters can discover this, the powers that be know it also. As you said, you could take the offense as is, make this tweak and have huge ramifactions. The great thing is, we have shown this lean for so long, if we were to change it up huge plays could be the result.

Originally posted by TheRatMan13:

This makes me so mad since we have more than enough capable backs! Gore used to catch 50+ balls in a season. We have Hunter and LaMichael James who both could play a similar role to Sproles, Shane Vereen, or Danny Woodhead. With Rathman on the coaching staff, and knowing that he came from the WCO, I cannot believe that we do not do this.

We call a fair share of WCO concept passing plays, but at this time in kaeps development we don't necessarily run them in a WCO way. As I mention above, kaep doesnt always go through the whole progression series and get to the checkdowns portion. It will come in time, but he spent four years in an offense that really doesn't emulate a pro style one.

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by HarboutTHAT:

Run plays... I wonder if Roman or Jim make the call on the type of play... truth be told I think it would be best if we let CK call the plays...

when he and gore did it last year in a game we got a touchdown. of course it worked so we never did it again

This.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by cciowa:
romanexcuses times 10

Your posts concerning Roman and the 49er offense are what I consider lazy and repetitive.

roman is lazy and repetitive. since you know what i am going to say about roman, do not read them and do not waste your energy responding to them

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by cciowa:
romanexcuses times 10

Your posts concerning Roman and the 49er offense are what I consider lazy and repetitive.

roman is lazy and repetitive. since you know what i am going to say about roman, do not read them and do not waste your energy responding to them

Didn't mean to come off as an ass. It's just that every time you have something to say about Roman, it's hate without any thoughtful football related topic. I listed 10 football reasons that I have read why people are not pleased with Roman, while admitting which ones I consider valid. You put zero thought into your response in an attempt to dismiss my post.

I don't consider it a waste of my energy to tell you that your posts about Roman are repetitive and lacking of insight. You responded directly to my post, so expect the same.

Madden offense.

Every play will be shotgun, 5 WR.

Before the snap, Kap will "hot route" every receiver to run a streak downfield.

Once the receivers get far enough downfield, Kap should scramble outside. Easy 15-20 yards every play. All of the DB's will be downfield and no one will be there to stop him.

Originally posted by theduke85:

Madden offense.

Every play will be shotgun, 5 WR.

Before the snap, Kap will "hot route" every receiver to run a streak downfield.

Once the receivers get far enough downfield, Kap should scramble outside. Easy 15-20 yards every play. All of the DB's will be downfield and no one will be there to stop him.

hehe....I forgot what madden had the glitch where you could just sprint the qb backwards from the LOS for like 10-15 yards and all the DBs would break off coverage leaving WR totally uncovered. Maybe go with that attack especially against Seattle

Do Harbaugh and Roman even know? We literally have NO identity on offense. It looks like a flag football offense that they draw up for each game, depending on the opponent.

I'd really like to see us get back to WCO principles. Get Kaep under center, run straight ahead, run counters, run traps until bodies are flying everywhere. Mix in the play action pass. Throw 3-step slants, curls, outs; 5 step posts and fades. Throw the ball in the flat to the RB 5-6 times a game.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by theduke85:

Madden offense.

Every play will be shotgun, 5 WR.

Before the snap, Kap will "hot route" every receiver to run a streak downfield.

Once the receivers get far enough downfield, Kap should scramble outside. Easy 15-20 yards every play. All of the DB's will be downfield and no one will be there to stop him.

hehe....I forgot what madden had the glitch where you could just sprint the qb backwards from the LOS for like 10-15 yards and all the DBs would break off coverage leaving WR totally uncovered. Maybe go with that attack especially against Seattle

I'm laughing but this is sort of what we did with Seattle. Run a lot of deeper routes and he takes off to the open spaces. Hawks had to assign a spy to him full time.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by theduke85:
Madden offense.

Every play will be shotgun, 5 WR.

Before the snap, Kap will "hot route" every receiver to run a streak downfield.

Once the receivers get far enough downfield, Kap should scramble outside. Easy 15-20 yards every play. All of the DB's will be downfield and no one will be there to stop him.

hehe....I forgot what madden had the glitch where you could just sprint the qb backwards from the LOS for like 10-15 yards and all the DBs would break off coverage leaving WR totally uncovered. Maybe go with that attack especially against Seattle

I'm laughing but this is sort of what we did with Seattle. Run a lot of deeper routes and he takes off to the open spaces. Hawks had to assign a spy to him full time.

Sounds sustainable.

I know you're joking, but Harbaugh and Roman got pretty lazy last year with developing Kaep. I hope they don't make that same mistake again.

Amen! ^^^

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by cciowa:
romanexcuses times 10

Your posts concerning Roman and the 49er offense are what I consider lazy and repetitive.

roman is lazy and repetitive. since you know what i am going to say about roman, do not read them and do not waste your energy responding to them

Didn't mean to come off as an ass. It's just that every time you have something to say about Roman, it's hate without any thoughtful football related topic. I listed 10 football reasons that I have read why people are not pleased with Roman, while admitting which ones I consider valid. You put zero thought into your response in an attempt to dismiss my post.

I don't consider it a waste of my energy to tell you that your posts about Roman are repetitive and lacking of insight. You responded directly to my post, so expect the same.

1. when something works he , for no known reason, runs from it... running to get us to the five yard line in the super bowl, running the ball vs the colts
2. then he refuses, for no known reason, to change even while it is f**king killing us. run gore into a 9 man line and then have the nerve to tell the team vs the panthers in the first game you are not good enough to get a half yard on fourth and short from the goal line
3 retard calls at the worst possible time,,, cute calls, toss to williams with a wet ball on a wet field in a championship game vs giants,, fake toss pitch to ginn deep in our end zone vs the rams
4 his inability or unwillingless to fake the god damn run to set up the pass in the red zone. we did it one time I think vs the skins and of course we never used it again,,,,
5. using your best weapon in gore as a f**king decoy on third and goal and fourth and goal in the super bowl when you supposedly have the best run blocking line .
in town.
6 refusing to at least try to run a screen pass to backs like gore, hunter and james who can catch the ball and do something with it, not even to try
7play calling that defies belief,, oh I am sorry you want examples
7a two incomplete passes in a row and one is usually a sack because our o line is over rated in the pass protection game thus setting up third and long or third and predictable thus setting up another sack
7b two incomplete passes in a row and one is usually a sack because our o line is over rated in pass protection thus setting up third and long so he calls for a run up the middle to gore.
i am sure i or others could come up with more. now i am sure the bathwater drinkers of roman can point to james being the problem, the o line being the problem, JH being the problem but we are not talking about those people in this post are we. go back and listen to the monday night football game with the skins and gruden is practically beside himself at the play calls which of course made that game closer than it needed to be which is another thing i could list under 7 f**king c. Oh yes i know gruden is a idiot and f**kface so he does not know s**t but most of our wins this year were a helluva lot closer than they needed to be. i say that is a huge fault of roman in his play calling. We must have led the league in 30 second drives in games which rushed the defense back on the field and they got tired..

ok playcalling which results in 30 second drives when we needed long drives,, that could be under 7 f**king d. Now i am sure you will counter each one of those with some romanexcuse. had we not had the legs of ck to bail us out of trouble on infamous third and long calls which were a result of roman, had we not had a wonderful kicker in dawson to get us at least some points when we stalled time and time again in the red zone i am not sure we would have made it to seattle. That is why i say the team did an amazing job in spite of roman. and the topper is gore and ck changing plays in the huddle to plays that actually work and score touchdowns. that tells me everything i need to know about roman. there is your list so you can put it in your pipe and smoke it