What kind of offense do we run?

It wouldn't be fair if I didn't list my own criticisms of Roman.

1. He likes to pass out of heavy run formations, but not the other way around. It's been mentioned before here. The 49ers love to run play action out of the 22 personnel, but how about draw plays out of 3 WR sets? Since the 49ers don't run screen passes well, another way to slow down a pass rush is to call draw plays.

2. He doesn't force feed some of his weapons enough. If Kap isn't able to locate and target guys like Vance/LMJ/Hunter on a pass, then force feed those guys. Get the ball into their hands and see what they can do. This is especially true in the case of LMJ and Hunter, who I think can be effective in open space, with the ball in their hands.

3. He doesn't attack the flats enough. This goes back to #2 above. Get the ball to that area of the field on 1st downs and get some positive yards to set up manageable 2nd and 3rd downs.

4. He doesn't use enough balanced formations. The 49ers line up 3x1 nearly all of the time. I'd like to see more 2x2 (2 WRs on each side) formations so that the defense cannot key in on which side is the strong side.

Originally posted by cciowa:
romanexcuses times 10

Your posts concerning Roman and the 49er offense are what I consider lazy and repetitive.

Not last years

Originally posted by thl408:

It wouldn't be fair if I didn't list my own criticisms of Roman.

1. He likes to pass out of heavy run formations, but not the other way around. It's been mentioned before here. The 49ers love to run play action out of the 22 personnel, but how about draw plays out of 3 WR sets? Since the 49ers don't run screen passes well, another way to slow down a pass rush is to call draw plays.

2. He doesn't force feed some of his weapons enough. If Kap isn't able to locate and target guys like Vance/LMJ/Hunter on a pass, then force feed those guys. Get the ball into their hands and see what they can do. This is especially true in the case of LMJ and Hunter, who I think can be effective in open space, with the ball in their hands.

3. He doesn't attack the flats enough. This goes back to #2 above. Get the ball to that area of the field on 1st downs and get some positive yards to set up manageable 2nd and 3rd downs.

4. He doesn't use enough balanced formations. The 49ers line up 3x1 nearly all of the time. I'd like to see more 2x2 (2 WRs on each side) formations so that the defense cannot key in on which side is the strong side.

This is a spot on list. I don't understand why we seemingly ignore 2x2 sets. In 2014, a gun set with boldin in one slot and Johnson in the other with crab split wide and for the hell of it VD as the other split end looks pretty scary. That poses a lot of questions to the defense, who do you put on crabs, how do you match up with VD, and finally how are you gonna guard the slots. Kicking in a number 1 corner on either slot is gonna let crabs have a field day. I'm not gonna lie, get Stevie Johnson can be a game changed in regards to our pass game. There should be some exploitable mismatches with in the passing game in 2014.

Originally posted by Niners816:

Originally posted by thl408:
It wouldn't be fair if I didn't list my own criticisms of Roman.

1. He likes to pass out of heavy run formations, but not the other way around. It's been mentioned before here. The 49ers love to run play action out of the 22 personnel, but how about draw plays out of 3 WR sets? Since the 49ers don't run screen passes well, another way to slow down a pass rush is to call draw plays.

2. He doesn't force feed some of his weapons enough. If Kap isn't able to locate and target guys like Vance/LMJ/Hunter on a pass, then force feed those guys. Get the ball into their hands and see what they can do. This is especially true in the case of LMJ and Hunter, who I think can be effective in open space, with the ball in their hands.

3. He doesn't attack the flats enough. This goes back to #2 above. Get the ball to that area of the field on 1st downs and get some positive yards to set up manageable 2nd and 3rd downs.

4. He doesn't use enough balanced formations. The 49ers line up 3x1 nearly all of the time. I'd like to see more 2x2 (2 WRs on each side) formations so that the defense cannot key in on which side is the strong side.

This is a spot on list. I don't understand why we seemingly ignore 2x2 sets. In 2014, a gun set with boldin in one slot and Johnson in the other with crab split wide and for the hell of VD as the other split end looks pretty scary. That poses a lot of questions to the defense, who do you put on crabs, how do you match up with VD, and finally how are you gonna guard the slots. Kicking in a number 1 corner on either slot is gonna let crabs have a field day. I'm not gonna lie, get Stevie Johnson can be a game changed in regards to our pass game. There should be some exploitable mismatches with in the passing game in 2014.

Agreed. It will force the defense to evenly spread their defense, as opposed to being able to roll coverage towards the strongside, which we saw a lot of in the nfccg. However, I think the 49ers like doing this (going 3x1). They want, and prefer, the isolation of the weakside (backside) WR and a lone CB. They need to mix it up a bit more for the reasons you listed.

I hate to see 11 guys, ours, all within one foot of one another, and then have frank up the gut. Yes it works with the jumbo pak sometimes in RZ or in close on 3rd down. I just think frank would be more effective with both WRs split to-the-tips-wide and the slot wide also. Then run frank. At least you don't have a box 10 on the LOS that way, whereas when we go jumbo pak against say SEA, it is a hard sell for frank. The most guys he could see in that circumstance would be 7, maybe 6. Crabs or boldin get doubled, plus there has to be a defender on each WR.

Thl, that was a fair summary of roman's shortcomings on preceding page, but the one that irks me the most is the failure to pass on first and second down. I would think that would be part of game planning, long before playcalling comes into being. And the knowledge by the D that we are going to run 3 out of every 5 first downs is awful...just awful. So it isn't just the type of passing plays but the when of passing plays.

Add to that running successfully and then out of nowhere here comes a pass play. Ok, I can live with that. But not countering a box 8,9 or even 10 (SEA) with a quick hitter over the middle or an out...man that is where I have problem with JH and roman's calls. Again, that SHOULD have been covered in game planning...ie, if they stack the box, get them out of it by passing ,and with our OL, it better be a quick pass, not a 7 stepper. Those are my complaints, and they have never been addressed, tho I have no idea why.

Originally posted by thl408:
Agreed. It will force the defense to evenly spread their defense, as opposed to being able to roll coverage towards the strongside, which we saw a lot of in the nfccg. However, I think the 49ers like doing this (going 3x1). They want, and prefer, the isolation of the weakside (backside) WR and a lone CB. They need to mix it up a bit more for the reasons you listed.

In regards to the 3x1 sets, I get the benefits of isolating the backside WR and being able to flood the strong side. Honestly I like the personnel running these sets this year. Just kinda thinking out loud, I would like us to have a package in which we line up in a 3x1 set but sneak a speedster like Ellington or James in the backfield. Again out of the huddle show 3x1, but then motion this speedster to the slot on the backside. The zone busting capabilties of these speed guys would open up some really nice Deep In plays or if the defense blows coverage, a really fast guy streaking down the numbers. I don't know, this is just a little tweak I would like to see us explore.

I know we won't, but we really could go with a 4/5 Wide offense almost exclusively this year due to the personnel we now have. My hope is we find that balance in which we are using it enough though. We really could be a 4000 yard pass 2000 yard rush offense if the proper balance is found.

Originally posted by thl408:

It wouldn't be fair if I didn't list my own criticisms of Roman.

1. He likes to pass out of heavy run formations, but not the other way around. It's been mentioned before here. The 49ers love to run play action out of the 22 personnel, but how about draw plays out of 3 WR sets? Since the 49ers don't run screen passes well, another way to slow down a pass rush is to call draw plays.

2. He doesn't force feed some of his weapons enough. If Kap isn't able to locate and target guys like Vance/LMJ/Hunter on a pass, then force feed those guys. Get the ball into their hands and see what they can do. This is especially true in the case of LMJ and Hunter, who I think can be effective in open space, with the ball in their hands.

3. He doesn't attack the flats enough. This goes back to #2 above. Get the ball to that area of the field on 1st downs and get some positive yards to set up manageable 2nd and 3rd downs.

4. He doesn't use enough balanced formations. The 49ers line up 3x1 nearly all of the time. I'd like to see more 2x2 (2 WRs on each side) formations so that the defense cannot key in on which side is the strong side.

Fair criticisms, based on what I've seen of the offense these past 3 years.

And really, pretty simple fixes. How difficult would it be to run out of a "pass heavy" set? Now we have 3 experienced WRs, maybe we will see more draw plays.

And how hard would it be to set up some passes to Hunter or LMJ or Gore in the flat?

It just seems that the focus has been on some pretty complicated, and impressive blocking schemes in the running game, and Roman must have a hand in designing those and setting them up.

But in doing so, has he overlooked other ways to attack a defense--such as what you've pointed out here?

Roman appears to have the knowledge and intelligence to come up with some pretty creative plays. I just hope he considers other ways to attack a defense and supplements his running attack.

816, I really like your 3x1 with Hunter, james or ellington sneaking out of the backfield. We haven't seen that play in years and it has been there for us in ALL our big games. Why we haven't done it? IDK.

Baalke to HaRoman…"Use the 53, not the 37" and we will win the Superbowl.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
I hate to see 11 guys, ours, all within one foot of one another, and then have frank up the gut. Yes it works with the jumbo pak sometimes in RZ or in close on 3rd down. I just think frank would be more effective with both WRs split to-the-tips-wide and the slot wide also. Then run frank. At least you don't have a box 10 on the LOS that way, whereas when we go jumbo pak against say SEA, it is a hard sell for frank. The most guys he could see in that circumstance would be 7, maybe 6. Crabs or boldin get doubled, plus there has to be a defender on each WR.

Thl, that was a fair summary of roman's shortcomings on preceding page, but the one that irks me the most is the failure to pass on first and second down. I would think that would be part of game planning, long before playcalling comes into being. And the knowledge by the D that we are going to run 3 out of every 5 first downs is awful...just awful. So it isn't just the type of passing plays but the when of passing plays.

Add to that running successfully and then out of nowhere here comes a pass play. Ok, I can live with that. But not countering a box 8,9 or even 10 (SEA) with a quick hitter over the middle or an out...man that is where I have problem with JH and roman's calls. Again, that SHOULD have been covered in game planning...ie, if they stack the box, get them out of it by passing ,and with our OL, it better be a quick pass, not a 7 stepper. Those are my complaints, and they have never been addressed, tho I have no idea why.

I totally agree with this. If this ratio could just begin to creep toward 50/50 this offense would become much harder to stop. IMO a couple of things that could make this offense more west coast like would be passing more on early downs, passing more to set up the run and what thl said in #2, Force feeding your weapons.

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by HarboutTHAT:
Run plays... I wonder if Roman or Jim make the call on the type of play... truth be told I think it would be best if we let CK call the plays...

when he and gore did it last year in a game we got a touchdown. of course it worked so we never did it again

I sincerely hope Kaep gets really frustrated one of these days and audible a play that is not one of the two or three given to him, and it works.

...and he starts to do it more and more often.

I know, time to wake up.

Originally posted by thl408:

Your posts concerning Roman and the 49er offense are what I consider lazy and repetitive.

After all the work you did, that's all he came up with as a counter.

Great analysis and good criticisms.

Re: Can't locate target guys. Well he has more target guys now. I think Stevie's skill set is perfect for this offense specially on how creative he gets open. It's going to take him a bit of time to get on the same page with Kaepernick, but once they do, they's be as deadly as the Kaeperinick to Crabtree duo and Kaep to Anquan duo. With Stevie breaking press man defense and running his option route adjustments on the opposite side where VD runs his, this offense is going to be tough to stop.

Re: play actions - the play action pass in this offense is geared to get the TE free from defensive coverage. This offense will be more deadly if we had more than one TE that can catch a pass. Vance's development is key here. Another player that will make this offense more consistent is Miller. I'd love for Miller to operate more in an H-back role that Delanie used to play. Miller has been surprisingly a very good back out of the backfield and a very good blocker, I can see our coaches attacking the flats with more Miller.

Re: Colin's improvement - I think the limits on the OTA's has hampered him a bit. If he could just get more reps with the 7 on 7's and had the time to get the route adjustments 2nd nature with his WR's, he could progress faster. What set him back last year is Anquan being a new WR to the system and Crabs lost for a big part of the season. A big powerful center will go a long way to create clean pockets for Colin to throw from, and hopefully his throws become more accurate and he has the time to set in the pocket and throw.

816, I have no idea if anyone on the coaching staff ever bothers to read these threads. But the info provided by Buck, NC, Thl, jonesAdrian, and others, sure should have rung some bells for JH. There are a lot of guys in these threads that have legit ideas but one never knows if that info is somehow passed up the chain. Somehow, I sure hope so. Just going 50/50 on first down would bring our overall passing percentage to close to...50/50. The first down passing percentage just has to change. We just give up too much to the D with that kind of knowledge. At 50/50, it's a crapshoot for them, and success for us increases. Such a simple thing, but until I saw Buck's chart(thank you, Buck), I had no idea. Kinda makes me wonder if JH knew that either, altho he sure should have.

Originally posted by Niners816:
This is a great assessment/breakdown. I am one who wishes that we ran even more WCO concepts then we do. However, I believe this is entirely contingent on kaep becoming even more comfortable with the set of progressions that are available within these plays. My thoughts/hopes are when he does become even more acclimated in a more pro style offense we will see a qb that goes through his reads and is willing to exploit the flats and take the checkdowns when available.

I guess my hope for our offense is one that is a perfect blend of WCO passing concepts and the power run game that we all ready have showcased. I think another year with the playbook is greatly gonna help kaep on the progression side and I also think the improvement in the quality of target is gonna help giving him defined reads and personnel that can attack man coverages. I can't wait to see what this offense has in store for us in 2014.

I keep hearing that Kaep is having problem with the progression and is not going through his reads. I'm pretty dumb when it comes to quarter-backing but can anyone tell me how is it possible that Kaep didn't have these problem in 2012 but "acquired" these flaws in 2013? Can a quarter back who has been doing fine with progressions and reads through four years of college and his first NFL year suddenly forgets how to do them in year two?

Is it possible that Moss, Crabtree, and Manningham progression turned into Boldin, xxx,and yyy progression? ...or maybe because our center has lost a step and Kaep ran out of time to complete his read in year two? Please enlighten me.