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What kind of offense do we run?

Of the top five passing percentage rates for a single season, Drew is 1st and 2nd, Ken Anderson is 3rd, Steve Young 4th and Joe Montana 5th--all over 70%. This was a key stat to Walsh and the WCO as it showed passing was nearly as dependable as a handoff and more likely to gain large chunks of yardage.

The Harbaugh system is not predicated on this concept, but it certainly helps any offense. Kaepernick will improve over time, gaining touch on short passes and being more calm when throwing while being rushed. He does better on the run right now than he does from the pocket when it is collapsing around him...for obvious reasons. I don't have stats to bear that out so some may see it differenly.

The idea that he is being taught to make one read and then run just doesn't seem correct to me. I believe it is a matter of his not being able or ready to make more reads. He needs to learn this as he goes but he has probably never had to do so, his legs bailing him out whenever he needed them. That's why I believe he could re-write the record books when he learns to be more patient and use the dump offs wisely. He could absolutely dissect defenses. If he doesn't ever develop that skill it could be anyones guess why--coaching, instincts lacking, stubborness...whatever.

But I'll put my money on success...with Harbaugh and CK getting there this year or the next.
I have one more thing to say regarding our necessity for speed on offense. Let me take you on a journey through the past in the way back machine. Not too long ago when we were in Atlanta for the NFC title game, down 17-0, we march down the field into the red zone to the 15 yard line. It's second down and 10, Kaep is in the pistol with Lamichael James behind him, he hands it off to LMJ, he gets to the corner, turns up field and turns on his afterburners and beats EVERYONE to the endzone for his first(and still only) TD of his career. That play alone should make it known how good speed is.

Whoever we decide to draft as far as a receiver goes, needs to be a speed guy IMO. I really like Brandin Cooks and hope we grab him in the first round. His presence alone would force db's to play off coverage just like they did Randy Moss when he was here in 2012, they'll play 5-10 yards off of him because they respect his speed. He can run 20 yards downfield turn around on a dime and catch the pass because he will be open. Even if teams play press we can use a bunch formation to get him a free release and get him down the field.
Originally posted by NCommand:
That's crazy to think about. And like SofaKing stated, it's not like this is a difficult pass esp. when these routes are WIDE open. I'd love if he could get to the level of his AR1 or 2 or primary read in a PS play and if it's not there, instantly hit the check-down but pass to them in a leading fashion; lead them with the pass to the open space and watch the yards RAC up.

This reminds me of an old nfl film during either mcnabb's first or second year when Andy Reid told him "I just want you to take what they gave you as fast as you can...let the offense do the work for you". Even if kaep were to go primary, check down then run he would but up really nice stats.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Of the top five passing percentage rates for a single season, Drew is 1st and 2nd, Ken Anderson is 3rd, Steve Young 4th and Joe Montana 5th--all over 70%. This was a key stat to Walsh and the WCO as it showed passing was nearly as dependable as a handoff and more likely to gain large chunks of yardage.

The Harbaugh system is not predicated on this concept, but it certainly helps any offense. Kaepernick will improve over time, gaining touch on short passes and being more calm when throwing while being rushed. He does better on the run right now than he does from the pocket when it is collapsing around him...for obvious reasons. I don't have stats to bear that out so some may see it differenly.

The idea that he is being taught to make one read and then run just doesn't seem correct to me. I believe it is a matter of his not being able or ready to make more reads. He needs to learn this as he goes but he has probably never had to do so, his legs bailing him out whenever he needed them. That's why I believe he could re-write the record books when he learns to be more patient and use the dump offs wisely. He could absolutely dissect defenses. If he doesn't ever develop that skill it could be anyones guess why--coaching, instincts lacking, stubborness...whatever.

But I'll put my money on success...with Harbaugh and CK getting there this year or the next.

The crazy thing about joe and Steve's 70% seasons is that they came in a league where 55-58% was consider good. Nowadays the standard for "good" is at that 63-65% clip. I still think the most amazing thing about Steve's '94 season is the fact he completed 77% of his passes on the road. That number has always been incredible to me.
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Of the top five passing percentage rates for a single season, Drew is 1st and 2nd, Ken Anderson is 3rd, Steve Young 4th and Joe Montana 5th--all over 70%. This was a key stat to Walsh and the WCO as it showed passing was nearly as dependable as a handoff and more likely to gain large chunks of yardage.

The Harbaugh system is not predicated on this concept, but it certainly helps any offense. Kaepernick will improve over time, gaining touch on short passes and being more calm when throwing while being rushed. He does better on the run right now than he does from the pocket when it is collapsing around him...for obvious reasons. I don't have stats to bear that out so some may see it differenly.

The idea that he is being taught to make one read and then run just doesn't seem correct to me. I believe it is a matter of his not being able or ready to make more reads. He needs to learn this as he goes but he has probably never had to do so, his legs bailing him out whenever he needed them. That's why I believe he could re-write the record books when he learns to be more patient and use the dump offs wisely. He could absolutely dissect defenses. If he doesn't ever develop that skill it could be anyones guess why--coaching, instincts lacking, stubborness...whatever.

But I'll put my money on success...with Harbaugh and CK getting there this year or the next.

The crazy thing about joe and Steve's 70% seasons is that they came in a league where 55-58% was consider good. Nowadays the standard for "good" is at that 63-65% clip. I still think the most amazing thing about Steve's '94 season is the fact he completed 77% of his passes on the road. That number has always been incredible to me.

Now THAT is taking what the defense gives you AND being very decisive with it.
Originally posted by K1ngCoopa24:
I have one more thing to say regarding our necessity for speed on offense. Let me take you on a journey through the past in the way back machine. Not too long ago when we were in Atlanta for the NFC title game, down 17-0, we march down the field into the red zone to the 15 yard line. It's second down and 10, Kaep is in the pistol with Lamichael James behind him, he hands it off to LMJ, he gets to the corner, turns up field and turns on his afterburners and beats EVERYONE to the endzone for his first(and still only) TD of his career. That play alone should make it known how good speed is.

Whoever we decide to draft as far as a receiver goes, needs to be a speed guy IMO. I really like Brandin Cooks and hope we grab him in the first round. His presence alone would force db's to play off coverage just like they did Randy Moss when he was here in 2012, they'll play 5-10 yards off of him because they respect his speed. He can run 20 yards downfield turn around on a dime and catch the pass because he will be open. Even if teams play press we can use a bunch formation to get him a free release and get him down the field.

We used James as a weapon? Liar! LOL

On a serious note re: speed, the difference with using Moss as a perpetual deep "threat" to create space underneath (for VD & Crabtree) was that he was a known product and was in on just about every play. Guys like Ginn and Moore and Lockette, we never used them at all in this manner let alone enough on the field on every down as a proven threat to seriously make a defense play on their heals and deep and off to respect their speed. There is just no way a speed guy is going to get on the field ahead of the big 3 enough to be used as a deep threat and one that will make defenses back up IMHO. Now, if he is a big-bodied guy (Evans, Moncrief, etc.) with great speed, then perhaps but even then, is he really going to see the field next year? It's like RB's out of the backfield...defenses will just ignore them until proven (used and sucessful).
[ Edited by NCommand on Mar 6, 2014 at 9:52 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Now THAT is taking what the defense gives you AND being very decisive with it.

Not to get too stat geeky, but I decided to look at Steve's numbers after being pulled in the Philly game in 1994. In the 14 games after the Philly blowout, the niners went 13-1 with the lone loss coming to min in the season finale with 2&3 playing most of the second half. Steve's numbers were the following:267 completions, 381 attempt 70.1% comp 3295 yards 35 tds and only 3 ints. That results in a qb rating of 123.9. I would put those numbers up against any 14 game span in nfl history. It's still blows my mind I was lucky enough to witness that level of qb play. If I get time I will look at joe's 1989 and see how it stacks up.
I think our most underused talent is Vernon Davis. Hear me out. He is great at running seams up the middle creating mismatches. When those plays are working its great. The problem is when its not working he disappears. I think he is just as useful on the 7-15 yd crossing routes which seem to have gone down for him and he is even more difficult to cover that way then on a seam route. With our WR who can block really well these plays would net good YAC. Think about this Crabtree, Boldin, VD and we rank in the BOTTOM of passing ranks. Teams would kill for those pass catchers and we are talking about adding possibly a 1st round talent. Is it gonna even help with our O philosophy
[ Edited by teylo31 on Mar 6, 2014 at 10:31 AM ]
Originally posted by Niners816:
Not to get too stat geeky, but I decided to look at Steve's numbers after being pulled in the Philly game in 1994. In the 14 games after the Philly blowout, the niners went 13-1 with the lone loss coming to min in the season finale with 2&3 playing most of the second half. Steve's numbers were the following:267 completions, 381 attempt 70.1% comp 3295 yards 35 tds and only 3 ints. That results in a qb rating of 123.9. I would put those numbers up against any 14 game span in nfl history. It's still blows my mind I was lucky enough to witness that level of qb play. If I get time I will look at joe's 1989 and see how it stacks up.

Ok I went ahead a checked out joe's '89 and it stacks up quite nicely. He didn't have the wtf moment like the '94 Philly game, so I went ahead and took all 16 games he played including the playoffs (he missed 3 starts in '89). He was 336 for 469, that's an incredible 71.6% comp. He had 4321 yards 37 tds and only 8 picks. That's a qb rating of 119.4. So I rephrase how lucky where we to witness these guys play qb at the highest level. This just illustrates what a top quality WCO did when it was running on all cylinders.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Mar 6, 2014 at 10:44 AM ]
Originally posted by teylo31:
I think our most underused talent is Vernon Davis. Hear me out. He is great at running seams up the middle creating mismatches. When those plays are working its great. The problem is when its not working he disappears. I think he is just as useful on the 7-15 yd crossing routes which seem to have gone down for him and he is even more difficult to cover that way then on a seam route. With our WR who can block really well these plays would net good YAC. Think about this Crabtree, Boldin, VD and we rank in the BOTTOM of passing ranks. Teams would kill for those pass catchers and we are talking about adding possibly a 1st round talent. Is it gonna even help with our O philosophy

VD is very important to this offense, even as his numbers took a dip in the later part of 13-14. Opposing defenses make it a point to take away VD opening up space for the other WRs. The attention given to VD allowed Crabs to have a good day in GB, and Boldin to have a good day in CAR.

VD was still attacking the seams downfield in 13-14, it's just that the seams were in a different part of the field than it was in 12-13 ("seam" doesn't necessarily mean middle of the field, it just means the gaps in the downfield zones). Check out what MOFO and MOFC is (web search) and you'll understand why VD was running a different type of route in 13-14 as opposing defenses used a single high safety look (MOFC). An offense should not attack the deep middle of the field when facing MOFC, it should attack the sidelines. That's why we saw so many back shoulder throws to WRs down the sideline, and corner routes from VD, to avoid the middle of the field.

edit:
Here HOU is playing cover1 (MOFC). Can't attack the middle of the field here, must attack the sidelines, hence the corner route from VD.

[ Edited by thl408 on Mar 6, 2014 at 10:52 AM ]
Originally posted by Niners816:
Originally posted by Niners816:
Not to get too stat geeky, but I decided to look at Steve's numbers after being pulled in the Philly game in 1994. In the 14 games after the Philly blowout, the niners went 13-1 with the lone loss coming to min in the season finale with 2&3 playing most of the second half. Steve's numbers were the following:267 completions, 381 attempt 70.1% comp 3295 yards 35 tds and only 3 ints. That results in a qb rating of 123.9. I would put those numbers up against any 14 game span in nfl history. It's still blows my mind I was lucky enough to witness that level of qb play. If I get time I will look at joe's 1989 and see how it stacks up.

Ok I went ahead a checked out joe's '89 and it stacks up quite nicely. He didn't have the wtf moment like the '94 Philly game, so I went ahead and took all 16 games he played including the playoffs (he missed 3 starts in '89). He was 336 for 469, that's an incredible 71.6% comp. He had 4321 yards 37 tds and only 8 picks. That's a qb rating of 119.4. So I rephrase how lucky where we to witness these guys play qb at the highest level. This just illustrates what a top quality WCO did when it was running on all cylinders.

Same here...I feel blessed to have witnessed both as well. Thanks for the info as well.
Originally posted by thl408:
VD is very important to this offense, even as his numbers took a dip in the later part of 13-14. Opposing defenses make it a point to take away VD opening up space for the other WRs. The attention given to VD allowed Crabs to have a good day in GB, and Boldin to have a good day in CAR.

VD was still attacking the seams downfield in 13-14, it's just that the seams were in a different part of the field than it was in 12-13 ("seam" doesn't necessarily mean middle of the field, it just means the gaps in the downfield zones). Check out what MOFO and MOFC is (web search) and you'll understand why VD was running a different type of route in 13-14 as opposing defenses used a single high safety look (MOFC). An offense should not attack the deep middle of the field when facing MOFC, it should attack the sidelines. That's why we saw so many back shoulder throws to WRs down the sideline, and corner routes from VD, to avoid the middle of the field.

edit:
Here HOU is playing cover1 (MOFC). Can't attack the middle of the field here, must attack the sidelines, hence the corner route from VD.


That was the exact play I was thinking about that showcases VD attacking MOFC. That is a great play, you have the WRs running a mesh concept and Vernon taking the corner.
[ Edited by Niners816 on Mar 6, 2014 at 12:50 PM ]
Originally posted by Niners816:
That was the exact play I was thinking about that showcases VD attacking MOFC. That is a great play, you have the WRs running a mesh concept and Vernon taking the corner.

Yup. And LOL at the mesh routes. One of Kyle or Baldwin mess up and they nearly collide in the middle of the field. Poor depth of route by one of them. Both are considered poor route runners so who knows who is at fault.

But yeah, this is why we didn't see VD run the "seam route" we were used to seeing. Again, the seam can be anywhere, not necessarily down the middle of the field. VD is indeed attacking the seam here. It just so happens that against cover1 (MOFC) the seam is near the sidelines, not down the middle of the field.

One example of the 49ers attacking the seam against MOFOpen is the Vance McDonald play where he drops a pass that Keachly defended. That was against cover2(Tampa2, MOFO). The seam is right down the middle of the field against cover2. The 49ers saw MOFC much more than MOFO this past season.
Here's the play demonstrating how the 49ers attacked Middle Of the Field Open. CAR safeties are in a cover2 look is MOFO (it's actually tampa2). The seam is right down the middle of the field. This is the seam route we are used to seeing VD run when teams were playing this kind of coverage.

MOFO vs MOFC is one of the first things a QB needs to identify pre-snap and post-snap when attacking downfield.

Originally posted by thl408:
Here's the play demonstrating how the 49ers attacked Middle Of the Field Open. CAR safeties are in a cover2 look is MOFO (it's actually tampa2). The seam is right down the middle of the field. This is the seam route we are used to seeing VD run when teams were playing this kind of coverage.

MOFO vs MOFC is one of the first things a QB needs to identify pre-snap and post-snap when attacking downfield.


Is this the play where McDonald catches it and then lets the linebacker knock it out of his hands?